Suns doing Amare a "disservice" playing him at C

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Horford is a better defender than both Ben and Amare, so it's no wonder why people are making excuses for them. I have absolutely no problem with Al Horford.

If Horford was in Phoenix, he'd probably be playing center. And a PG like Nash could get Al 2 - 4 easy baskets a game. How many assisted FGs does he get from our PGs? He'd easily be a 13 and 10 guy, if he played with a decent PG.

Defensively, Al routinely holds his man to under 50% shooting, an attribute that most people playing the 5 can't say. If a center gets Al right under the rim, that's where Al's size comes into play. He's not stopping them at that point. But if his man posts him up 5 - 8 feet away from the basket, Al is a sound enough defensive player to not give up an easy score.

Ish, not many people can stop the guys you named. It's the Melvin Ely, Steven Hunter types, that would routinely kill us down low. That happens less ans less, with Al in the mix.

[Admin]

No, we aren't on the "new look" of the site yet. The site has been in BETA testing for several weeks now and it's ready to be switched over, Chillz just hasn't had the time to make that happen. Since you all have the new link if you want to use it feel free to. Once the site is updated to the "new look" the address will be the same as you have always used.

[Guest]

I was realizing how some people were posting with "no icon" next to their post and most other people were posting with a basketball icon next to their post. That seemed odd to me at the time, and now I realize why. Now that i've been on the new look for ~1 hour I have to say that it looks awesome and can't wait for the switch. I appreciate all the effort you put into the new site Dolfan!

[exodus]

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Horford is a better defender than both Ben and Amare, so it's no wonder why people are making excuses for them.

Wallace owns 4 DPOYs. Don't hold your breath waiting for horford to win one.

amare might not be as good a defensive player as Horford but he is twice the offensive player Horford is.

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Defensively, Al routinely holds his man to under 50% shooting, an attribute that most people playing the 5 can't say.

The only decent scorers that i have seen Horford hold down are Okafor and Big Z.

On the plus side he does a good job when he gets switched on smaller players but there is no question we need someone with some size who can defend. We are just too small up front right now.

[Admin]

Thank you, I appreciate that!! I am every bit as excited for you guys to use it as you are trust me. If you guys have any questions using the site feel free to PM me or post in the help section. I'm sure Chillz will be switching the site over soon too hopefully.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So you'd trade Horford for Big Ben straight up, if it were possible?

Of course Amare is a much better player than Horford. I'm just saying that having a legit PG makes things a hell of a lot easier for a guy like Horford. Amare is a great mid-range shooter, but he probably gets 10 - 14 ppg from running pick & roll with Nash.

Ex, you know it's a domino effect with our roster. Moving Al to PF means that Smith goes to SF. One player gets better, while the other may have less of an impact on a game. I want Smoove around the basket on both ends of the floor, not out on the perimeter. So we do what we have to do here. Play Al at center, and Smith at PF.

And we do have a big body on the team. He's just sucks on the defensive end and shoots 40% on the offensive end.

I agree that we need another big, preferably who is either very good offensively or defensively. I think everyone knows that. That player is more than likely still not going to play more than Horford @ the 5.

I have to asK, what is it about Horford that causes you to kind of go at him as much as you do. No other person on this site remotely does this, but you. It's almost Diesel-like with Marvin, when you talk about Horford. Always critical . . hardly ever any praise.

So what is it . . really?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL !!!

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Offensively he averages 9 ppg in 30 minutes. The only way he is going to score against bigger players is if he takes them off the dribble like Smith does. So far he hasn't done that at all.

He is a good rebounder but he can rebound just as well playing the 4 as the 5.

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Offensively he's nearly averaging double figures despite being a rookie that's a 4th option.

If you think he's hit his ceiling offensively you are sadly mistaken. Not with his basketball IQ, athleticism for a guy his size, and the touch he's shown on the midrange jumper.

[Atlantaholic]

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Offensively he's nearly averaging double figures despite being a rookie that's a 4th option.

If you think he's hit his ceiling offensively you are sadly mistaken. Not with his basketball IQ, athleticism for a guy his size, and the touch he's shown on the midrange jumper.

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I don't think anybody is saying he has reached his ceiling... but unless he finds a post up game (which does not exist at all right now) his ceiling isn't all that high on offense... Probably at around 12-14 PPg... I wouldn't mind that at all, but I don't think he will ever be elite on offense personally, though I wouldn't rule it out either. (if he develops a post up game, he is capable of it I suppose.)

[exodus]

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So you'd trade Horford for Big Ben straight up, if it were possible?

Of course not. Ben is washed up.

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Amare is a great mid-range shooter, but he probably gets 10 - 14 ppg from running pick & roll with Nash.

He was scoring 20 ppg before Nash got there. Nice try though.

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I have to asK, what is it about Horford that causes you to kind of go at him as much as you do

He is averaging 9 ppg in 30 minutes and playing too much time out of position.

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Always critical . . hardly ever any praise.

That is just bs. You need to just drop that nonsense unless you want me to pull quotes to show you don't know what you are talking about.

The simple fact is that he isn't scoring worth a crap and we need scoring. When he gets the ball he isn't doing anything with it. He can't shoot over bigger players and he never tries to beat them off the dribble no matter how slow they are. I keep seeing people saying he will be a scorer but i dont see it on the court.

If i had said last summer than he would be getting 30 minutes and averaging only 9 points everyone would have jumped on me as a hater. I would dog anyone who manages only 9 pts in 30 minutes.

I have given him plenty of credit for his rebounding. I also mentioned just recently that he does a good job on D when he gets switched onto a smaller players.

Other than those two things i don't see a lot to give him credit for. I see a lot of "if he was more involved in the offense he would score more" but whenever they try to get him more involved he can't do anything.

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Play Al at center, and Smith at PF.

There are 48 minutes at the power forward position. There is absolutely no reason that Horfords minutes can't be split evenly between the 4 and 5 long term. Right now we just don't have anyone other than Zaza to play center.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So what should Horford's numbers be at for the rest of the year, to meet your satisfaction?

And on a scale of 1 - 10, how would you rate his play @ center this year?

To me, considering the personnel on this team, he's pretty much doing exactly what I thought he'd be doing.

[exodus]

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So what should Horford's numbers be at for the rest of the year, to meet your satisfaction?

My problem is that he is showing no signs of progress on offense AT ALL. His offense (not including dunks and layups) consists entirely of standstill jumpers and jump hook. They are very predictable and easy to defend, especially since he insists on shooting jump hooks over taller players.

I have said time and again that i want to see him take bigger, slower players off the dribble. How many times do i have to repeat this before you get it?

[killa3312]

Hard to show progress when you really don't touch the ball a whole lot offensively. Give Horford the offseason to work on his game, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at his improvement. He did the same thing between his sophomore and junior campaigns at Florida, and came back vastly improved.

FWIW, he also has a nice spin move on offense (i.e. Clippers game where he spinned for a dunk) that he utilized a lot in college, but hasn't so far in the pros. I just think he's a little apprehensive offensively right now given his small role on that side of the ball. Over time, with more touches and more involvement in the offense, you'll see his confidence and scoring go up.

[exodus]

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Hard to show progress when you really don't touch the ball a whole lot offensively.

He has been getting the ball more but has done nothing with it. You would think at least once in awhile he would take a guy like Gasol off the dribble and score but he never does.

In January Horford averaged 8.5 pts shooting 44% in 31 minutes. That just sucks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Those were 2 easy questions to answer Ex. And you sidestepped the questions. Interesting.

Your complaint is that he doesn't do certan things to increase his scoring output. So once again, I'll ask again:

1) What should Horford's numbers look like for the rest of the year, to satisfy you?

2) On a grade from 1 - 10, rate his play at center for the Hawks.

Those are 2 direct questions. I mean, unless you choose to not answer them for some strange reason. This isn't the SAT.

[Traceman]

REGARDLESS of their size. Sure Horford needs to work on his offensive game but faulting a 6'10" PF/C for being unable to take guys off the dribble is not fair in my opinion. Whey Horford gets better on offense, it will be because he develops a better drop step move, an up and under move, a better turn around J and a more consistent face up J.

At any rate, being a 7-footer doesn't make you a Center. I think Horford is more of a Center than Gasol will ever be. Horford was KILLING him on the glass and he killed him when we last played MEM. He had 14 rebs in that game. Pau simply can't keep him off the glass.

[exodus]

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1) What should Horford's numbers look like for the rest of the year, to satisfy you?

If he could average 11 ppg shooting 48% i would take it. But you are missing the issue.

It is no different from what i (and so many others) were saying about Smith. He needed to stop shooting so many 3s and start working inside which he has done, although not as much as he should.

The key differece is that it is ok to criticize Smith for his mistakes but it isn't ok to criticize Horford for some reason.

Horfords numbers wont improve until he changes the way he plays.

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2) On a grade from 1 - 10, rate his play at center for the Hawks.

Depends on what you mean. Are you grading him based on his play in relation to other Hawks or to the league as a whole? Clearly he is the best option there now.

In relation to the league as a whole I would probably give him a 6.5, and that is only because the position is so weak. His PER of 13.28 is 35th among centers, slightly behind Diop.

[exodus]

That is because most 5s are big and slow. They don't need to take people off the dribble to score because they can overpower people.

Horford can't overpower guys at the 5. However he has a quickness advantage over almost everyone he faces. Therefore he needs to take advantage of that.

[Traceman]

I don't care how quick you are, if you are 6'10", it is not an easy task to put the ball on the floor and get all the way to the basket. Even if he can beat his man, there will be quicker, smaller players swiping at the ball. I think he has a much greater chance of being successful long term in the low post if he uses sound post techniques rather than trying to face up and beat his man off the dribble.

[exodus]

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I don't care how quick you are, if you are 6'10", it is not an easy task to put the ball on the floor and get all the way to the basket. Even if he can beat his man, there will be quicker, smaller players swiping at the ball

Josh Smith has done it well and he isn't exactly known for his ball handling.

There is no reason for the defense to pay any attention to him at all unless he actually starts scoring. if he does and they start to collapse on him then he can pass to the open man.

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I think he has a much greater chance of being successful long term in the low post if he uses sound post techniques rather than trying to face up and beat his man off the dribble.

He isn't going to have any success trying to play with his back to the basket against bigger, stronger players. That is why he isn't scoring now. It just doesn't work.