This about giving fans a name & saving BK/MW jobs

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Spot on. The current team was going nowhere. This trade makes too much sense. Walter was crying about BK not doing anything to upgrade the team. Now that BK does upgrade the team, he complains that we MIGHT lose Chillz in addition to saving his job. Umm, isn't BK's job is to make the team better????

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We could trade Lorenzen Wright for Chris Paul and they would complain that we should have drafted him the 1st time

[Guest Walter]

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I absolutely agree with Walter. That is the point I was made in my thread. It doesn't make any sense.

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BK keeps them so starved that bread and water makes them fall over themselves to congratulate him.

This deal trades JOSH CHILDRESS, SW, Lue, AJ, and Lo for Mike Bibby. JOSH CHILDRESS is necessarily part of the deal because it will be impossible to resign him and we cannot trade him (because we cannot take on a contract of equal value in return) if we do the deal.

For JOSH CHILDRESS, SW, and $9 million in expiring contracts we SHOULD GET A HELL-OF-A-LOT MORE THAN MIKE BIBBY!

This deal is ONLY so that this year's team makes the playoffs and Woody/BK keep their jobs. They are saying "TO HELL WITH NEXT YEAR WITHOUT JC". They are covering their asses and saving their jobs. And the majority of fans here are so GD short sighted, naive, and made desperate they 'd buy it along with Oklahoma beach front property.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Secondly, who out there is gonna make a huge contract offer to Chillz? If they do, let them have him. He is not that important of a player. Mario can fill his shoes.

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For someone that thought JC and JS had one more year with us this is not surprising...

1) It doesn't matter what other teams offer JC other than it will at least be the MLE and we cannot afford that with SIXTY FOUR MILLION DOLLARS devoted to nine players!

2) Anybody who thinks Mario can replace JC is [censored] up.

W

[Guest Walter]

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we gave up talent for better talent...sure the money is there but it's not coming out of my pocket...

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Do you think Mike Bibby is better talent than JC, SW, Lue, AJ, and Lo combined?

Hell no.

W

[Guest Walter]

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as long as we stay under the luxury tax I think the ASG flat out proved with this deal that they are willing to go over the cap to keep this team together and to put a winner on the floor. I don't see why you think the owners won't be willing to go over the cap because as long as they stay under the luxury tax there won't be any penalties or problems with it and if Bibby gets this team winning games and improves our other players then they will get a much better return on their money spent and in turn should generate more revenue in tickets, merchandise, and we might even get some national tv exposure as well.

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...but with ONLY 9 players under contract we will be at SIXTY FOUR MILLION DOLLARS and within $6 million of the luxury tax. THAT is without even the minimum number of players and most teams like to have 14-15 not 12 players on their roster.

This is merely a 3 month deal to get BK and Woody a new contract. We'll lose Childress, will not be able to afford to replace him, and we will regress after this year.

W

[pound4pound]

YES - We are going to be a better team this year with Bibby and a better team next year WITHOUT Chill.

Your arguement supposes that Chill is a valuable assset. There is very little that he brings to the table that Mario West doesn't bring - and Mario doesn't command $7,000,000 a year. Chill is a nice compliment on his Rookie salary - But a 2/3 that can't create his own shot or a threat from outside isn't anything you invest a franchise in.

Also - we do get to keep Chill for the Playoff run this year - so it isn't the same as shipping him out with Lo and AJ. Chill is nice to have on the roster - but by far the most expendable piece we had next the Shell. He is even more expendable when we actually have Productive NBA players that are far better investments a la Bibby.

[Guest Walter]

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Wow Walter. I would like to reply to these points.

1) Childress' Hawks status is undetermined for next season. You do not know he won't be resigned. He might be.

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I think I just proved undeniably that he will not be resigned. Argue the facts. Tell me how a team with nine players under contract for 66 million dollars can afford Childress when the cap will be 58.6 million, the luxury tax threshold 70 million, we will have 3 additional roster spots to fill to make the minimum 12 or 5-6 to fill the usual 14-15, and only five teams last year including LA and NY paid the luxury tax. Please. tell me. facts. Do tell.

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He also might go in another deal for a pick and expiring money (if we do it now). It remains to be seen.

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I'm willing to bet it won't. When it doesn't remember the deal is JOSH CHILDRESS, SW, Lo, Lue, AJ for Bibby. Oh, I forgot, the 3 months with JC may allow us to make the playoffs and resign BK and Woody to extension. Then after losing JC and having no replacement, we regress. It should sound like a GS shitty deal to you then

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Both JS and JC CAN be done under the luxury tax

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Like hell they can. If you really believe so SPELL IT OUT FINANCIALLY. Talk is cheap. SPELL IT OUT!

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2) If we knew we couldn't/wouldn't do Childress' deal in the aftermath of this, we would have certainly subbed him into the deal and kept Shelden. That seems plainly obvious to me.

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I don't expect BK to know [censored]! Keeping SW? Not much of a prize if you ask me. I think BK is out to save his job and get an extension. THIS TRADE MAY ACCOMPLISH THAT! What does he care if JC is gone once BK's extension is signed.

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4) If you believe this is a flashy ploy to save jobs, the same could be said about any other deal which would improve the team. This is an example of BK DOING his job, for once, and actually executing something that is likely to add to the win column. You were pretty adamant about not wasting the capital of expiring money that we had - and it was implicit in any such deal that we would a) take back money, and b) improve the team.

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I do not believe JC/SW/Lo/Lue/AJ for Mike Bibby improves the team beyond this year when JC will be gone and no replacement can be afforded. Other trades would not have to be ploys. This one most definitely serves as one.

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5) I also wish we could have landed a long term piece, but I have to believe that wasn't on the table in other talks, or we'd have done that deal instead. Now we still have the flexibility to get that done next year. We'll see, but I doubt BK or ASG really view Bibby as the long term fit here. If they do, that's a completely different story!

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You mean a long term piece like Gasol for peanuts. Yeah, that wasn't on the table. The "I have to believe" talk is the same talk everyone had about each of BK's 1st three lotto draft picks. "I have to believe" = "naive" and "sucker" when it comes to BK. It's one tier down from "BK must know something we don't".

W

[Guest Walter]

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YES - We are going to be a better team this year with Bibby and a better team next year WITHOUT Chill.

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Then why not get rid of Childress now? You don't even believe the dribble you are spewing.

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There is very little that he brings to the table that Mario West doesn't bring

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At least I hope you don't for your sake.

W

[pound4pound]

I would rather have as many people help us make our run this year as possible. Chill actually fits better into the Hawks scheme with Bibby becuase he can be set up better and isn't relied upon to shoot. But that isn't an endorsement of his average NBA ability - it is more a statement of what Bibby brings to the table.

The truth is - if Chill was thrown into this deal today, like you say, then we are still better off. Mario works well when he is set up and is used as just a hustle player too.

Dribble

Dribble

[thesheedera]

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I absolutely agree with Walter. That is the point I was made in my thread. It doesn't make any sense.

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BK keeps them so starved that bread and water makes them fall over themselves to congratulate him.

This deal trades JOSH CHILDRESS, SW, Lue, AJ, and Lo for Mike Bibby. JOSH CHILDRESS is necessarily part of the deal because it will be impossible to resign him and we cannot trade him (because we cannot take on a contract of equal value in return) if we do the deal.

For JOSH CHILDRESS, SW, and $9 million in expiring contracts we SHOULD GET A HELL-OF-A-LOT MORE THAN MIKE BIBBY!

This deal is ONLY so that this year's team makes the playoffs and Woody/BK keep their jobs. They are saying "TO HELL WITH NEXT YEAR WITHOUT JC". They are covering their asses and saving their jobs. And the majority of fans here are so GD short sighted, naive, and made desperate they 'd buy it along with Oklahoma beach front property.

W

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You're completely ignoring the fact that Bibby (or other current Hawks for that matter) could get moved before the end of this offseason. It's up to Childress to make the case that he's a piece we can't give up, as it is for every Hawk. A little competition for roster spots could be a really good thing.

Plus, at the end of this season an expiring Bibby could be an extremely attractive opportunity a for team looking to take a flier on a veteran guard to add to their rotation for a championship run.

Finally we see the team making a move that took some guts and at least attempts to address our most glaring problem of the last several years, shouldn't that tell us that our ownership and mnagement may be more willing to make more bold (and necessary) moves in the future?

We weren't gonna be a championship contender next season coming back with the current roster (unless you think a healthy Speedy could take us to the top), so we might as well start making the neessary changes sooner rather than later.

This isn't some kind of incredible windfall, but it was a good move for the franchise with very limited downside.

[txsting]

Walter, the cap and luxury tax levels are not set. NBA gets a nice fat new TV contract next year (about 20% increase in TV revenue, and the total NBA revenue is used to directly set these levels). We're might be looking at a larger than normal increase in these levels.

However, you can put that aside - we don't know what will happen there. But we do know this for next year:

Al Horford 4.0

Acie Law IV 2.1

Joe Johnson 14.2

Speedy Claxton 5.8

Mike Bibby 14.5

Marvin Williams 5.6

Zaza Pachulia 4.0

Solomon Jones 0.8

Josh Childress 7.0 (anticipated)

Josh Smith 11.0 (anticipated)

Salim Stoudamire 1.0 (anticipated)

Mario West 0.4 (anticipated)

#13 1.0

That's 71.4 M. That is very close and probably under the expected luxury tax (it was 67.9 this year). But, it's only for one year. That's key - and ASG can handle that. As I've said, we have options with Bibby after next year. We could resign him, probably for less since he'll be 31. We could move him at the deadline, and take back at least one expiring deal to decrease our 2010 outlay. We could let him expire completely if we need to (which is what we would have done anyway this year, barring this deal). I don't think we risk very much, and we have a pretty decent potential return. Not the least of which is relevancy. As you said SW isn't much of a loss, so I'm sure you won't argue that.

Anyhoo, yes we can keep Childress if we want. It won't be a problem, and I expect it to happen if we don't move him before the deadline.

[thesheedera]

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Walter, the cap and luxury tax levels are not set. NBA gets a nice fat new TV contract next year (about 20% increase in TV revenue, and the total NBA revenue is used to directly set these levels). We're might be looking at a larger than normal increase in these levels.

However, you can put that aside - we don't know what will happen there. But we do know this for next year:

Al Horford 4.0

Acie Law IV 2.1

Joe Johnson 14.2

Speedy Claxton 5.8

Mike Bibby 14.5

Marvin Williams 5.6

Zaza Pachulia 4.0

Solomon Jones 0.8

Josh Childress 7.0 (anticipated)

Josh Smith 11.0 (anticipated)

Salim Stoudamire 1.0 (anticipated)

Mario West 0.4 (anticipated)

#13 1.0

That's 71.4 M. That is very close and probably under the expected luxury tax (it was 67.9 this year). But, it's only for

one year

. That's key - and ASG can handle that. As I've said, we have options with Bibby after next year. We could resign him, probably for less since he'll be 31. We could move him at the deadline, and take back at least one expiring deal to decrease our 2010 outlay. We could let him expire completely if we need to (which is what we would have done anyway this year, barring this deal). I don't think we risk very much, and we have a pretty decent potential return. Not the least of which is relevancy. As you said SW isn't much of a loss, so I'm sure you won't argue that.

Anyhoo, yes we can keep Childress if we want. It won't be a problem, and I expect it to happen if we don't move him before the deadline.

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Also possible we could get some relief on the Claxton deal.

[exodus]

I couldn't care less about Childress. My only concern about this deal is how it affects the Hawks ability to go after a center.

[bonethugz]

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we gave up talent for better talent...sure the money is there but it's not coming out of my pocket...

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sort of but, we fans also as customers. it's from us. anyway, since we now have proven star player, at least star quality player in bibby(i know he never made the allstar team). we have to also support the team by going to games(more) and/or buying the teams shirt or anything. well at least i will.

[gsuteke]

Admin: No more of this crap from either of you. Final warning to stop getting personal.

[Spiral]

I (like many others) like reading your stuff, please don't get yourself banned...

[gsuteke]

You post nothing but negative things about the Hawks.

The Hawks finally make a move to show us they are committed to moving in the right direction.

You slam it in typical Walter fashion.

Very nice.

[Guest Walter]

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You post nothing but negative things about the Hawks.

The Hawks finally make a move to show us they are committed to moving in the right direction.

You slam it in typical Walter fashion.

Very nice.

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Looks like you ca't control yourself again and again.

This deal means we lose JC for nothing. At $64 million commited in salary to 9 players ext year, we ca't resign him OR trade him. Thus the deal is = JC/SW/Lo/Lue/AJ/2n rder for Bibby and Bibby today isn't remotely worth that.

It was a 3 month deal to save BK and Woody's arse. JC will be gone after their extesions. I can't think of a worse fate for the Hawk franchise.

But of course, you cannot respond to fact.

W

[Final_quest]

It's not a fact yet. How can you call your assumptions fact?

I think part of your problem Walter is that in your mind your assumptions are fact.

For example Smoove is not guaranteed to get a max offer. Chillz may accept a QO. The owners may be willing to spend extra money for this next season and wait for Bibby and others to come off the cap.

Other assumptions you've made:

We could have traded for Calderon, Gordon, etc. Bottom line your assumptions are not fact. While we can appreciate your conclusions, passing them off as facts is a little ridiculous. I think you would find that people would respond better to you if you wrote with a little more humility.

The main positive out of this whole scenario is that the ownership is showing the first signs of not operating on the cheap, which is something even you should be happy about.

[Traceman]

for a 2nd round pick in the off season as a last resort to get the necessary capspace to resign both Smoove and Chillz?I think that an expiring $4M contract for a serviceable center will have plenty of value to a team like Charlotte. They could either keep Zaza or trade him for something of more value than a 2nd round pick.

In addition, there is no guarantee that Smoove gets the max. That will only happen in the best case scenario FOR HIM. It is certainly feasible that he could get a deal starting at $11M or so instead of the max.

It is POSSIBLE that we could lose Chillz due to him getting a big offer but really, how much would YOU pay Chillz? I thnk he is worth slightly more than the MLE but if a team under the cap comes in here with even a $7M a season offer for him I will be shocked.

Bottom line is that I think we have a reasonable shot of resigning Smoove and Chillz for a combined $18M and if we need more than that, Zaza can be traded to a team under the cap for a 2nd.