Horford's future

[exodus]

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But since that won't happen,

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I didn't realize i was arguing with a soothsayer. So why didn't you tell us in advance we were going to trade for Bibby?

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This has officially been the most pointless sports conversation of my life, considering you are talking about something that is completely irrelevant to the "good of the team" (as you stated)...Which is the entire point I am on this message board...To discuss what is best for the team.

Good night.

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Again you don't understand that the team can change, as we saw this weekend. What is best for the team today might not be what is best for the team tomorrow.

I guess it is much easier to make assumptions to support your opinion. That way you don't have to actually think.

[Admin]

We have to look at the production that we can get from the 4 and the production that we can get from the 5. Right now we have more players that can effectively play the 4 than we do the 5. Horford is the most capable player on the team at playing the 5 and I highly doubt we can or will bring in someone better than him to play the 5. Based on that it's pretty clear that Horford should be playing the bulk of our C minutes until the time comes that we have enough production from the 5 to allow him to play fewer minutes there and more minutes at his natural 4.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm at the club reading this ish. You guys have me rolling. A female asked me what was I laughing at?

Easy answer to this question.

As the team is comstructed right now, Horford has to play the 5 as much as possible.

I truly believe if we had good passing PG, Horford ofensively would be a lot better. We'll see the impact that Bibby has on his game. Defensively, he is solid most nights

Most important, the production he gives us at center, isn't significantly different than if he played PF. If he played PF full time, i don't see him being no more than a 13 and 10 guy, because he's not necessarily a polished offensive player. He wasn't the go to guy in college. He was more of the do everything to help the team win guy.

That'll probably be the type of NBA player he'll be.

I think Horford would be 25% better at PF, than at C. If he played center his entire career, he could still be a goood center. But because of his rawness offensively, I'm not sure if he'll be great if he played PF anyway.

Meanwhile, the dropoff with Smoove at SF, is dramatic. Put him at SF, and all of his flaws are exposed. That's not necessarily the case with Horford at center.

If Smoove's potential at PF is a 22 and 8 guy, and Horford's potential at C is a 15 and 12 guy, I can definitely live with that combination on the frontline for us. That's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

[DavidSomerset]

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I'm at the club reading this ish. You guys have me rolling. A female asked me what was I laughing at?

Easy answer to this question.

As the team is comstructed right now, Horford has to play the 5 as much as possible.

I truly believe if we had good passing PG, Horford ofensively would be a lot better. We'll see the impact that Bibby has on his game. Defensively, he is solid most nights

Most important, the production he gives us at center, isn't significantly different than if he played PF. If he played PF full time, i don't see him being no more than a 13 and 10 guy, because he's not necessarily a polished offensive player. He wasn't the go to guy in college. He was more of the do everything to help the team win guy.

That'll probably be the type of NBA player he'll be.

I think Horford would be 25% better at PF, than at C. If he played center his entire career, he could still be a goood center. But because of his rawness offensively, I'm not sure if he'll be great if he played PF anyway.

Meanwhile, the dropoff with Smoove at SF, is dramatic. Put him at SF, and all of his flaws are exposed. That's not necessarily the case with Horford at center.

If Smoove's potential at PF is a 22 and 8 guy, and Horford's potential at C is a 15 and 12 guy, I can definitely live with that combination on the frontline for us. That's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

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"B-b-but, that wasn't the poll question!!! You're not allowed to think outside the box!!!"

Good response northcyde...That is exactly what I have been saying during this entire completely fruitless conversation.

Exodus just wants someone to argue with.

[exodus]

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I'm at the club reading this ish. You guys have me rolling. A female asked me what was I laughing at?

Easy answer to this question.

As the team is comstructed right now, Horford has to play the 5 as much as possible.

I truly believe if we had good passing PG, Horford ofensively would be a lot better. We'll see the impact that Bibby has on his game. Defensively, he is solid most nights

Most important, the production he gives us at center, isn't significantly different than if he played PF. If he played PF full time, i don't see him being no more than a 13 and 10 guy, because he's not necessarily a polished offensive player. He wasn't the go to guy in college. He was more of the do everything to help the team win guy.

That'll probably be the type of NBA player he'll be.

I think Horford would be 25% better at PF, than at C. If he played center his entire career, he could still be a goood center. But because of his rawness offensively, I'm not sure if he'll be great if he played PF anyway.

Meanwhile, the dropoff with Smoove at SF, is dramatic. Put him at SF, and all of his flaws are exposed. That's not necessarily the case with Horford at center.

If Smoove's potential at PF is a 22 and 8 guy, and Horford's potential at C is a 15 and 12 guy, I can definitely live with that combination on the frontline for us. That's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

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"B-b-but, that wasn't the poll question!!! You're not allowed to think outside the box!!!"

Good response northcyde...That is exactly what I have been saying during this entire completely fruitless conversation.

Exodus just wants someone to argue with.

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Funny that only 23% of the people agree with you. Maybe they are seeing something you don't.

Maybe they see that the only teams with a starting C as small as horford were Phoenix (who gave up and got Shaq) and Chicago (in the tank).

Maybe they see that Bosh ,who made the All-Star team as a center, doesn't even start at center on his own team. Is Rasho as good at center as Bosh? Of course not.

Sekou, Woody and most people here agree that Horford shouldn't be a full time center. Maybe you are the one just looking for someone to argue with since you are the one who started the initial thread.

[exodus]

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If he played PF full time, i don't see him being no more than a 13 and 10 guy, because he's not necessarily a polished offensive player.

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But because of his rawness offensively, I'm not sure if he'll be great if he played PF anyway.

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I was saying exactly that during the summer and labeled a hater.

After all horford is the same size a Zo and Amare so he can be just as good as them. That is what people were saying last summer.

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I truly believe if we had good passing PG, Horford ofensively would be a lot better.

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You do realize that Bibby shoots a lot right? Where are Horford's shots going to come from when he is on the floor with Bibby, JJ, Marvin and Smith? He will be the distant 5th option.

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If Smoove's potential at PF is a 22 and 8 guy, and Horford's potential at C is a 15 and 12 guy, I can definitely live with that combination on the frontline for us. That's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

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So who should be playing the 4 when Smith isn't in the game?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I was saying exactly that during the summer and labeled a hater.

After all horford is the same size a Zo and Amare so he can be just as good as them. That is what people were saying last summer.

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You were also making the point that Shelden could do exactly what Horford could do, before the season. I guess people were just mad that you were immeadiately talking down on a guy who played center on a 2-time national champ. Expecting Horford to be a Zo-like scorer, is unrealistic though. Especially when he'd come here and not be the main guy.

In Seattle, his scoring numbers might look a little better, but his FG% would be lower. I could see Horford shooting a lot of those 12 - 15 foot jumpers, if he were one of the main scoring options.

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You do realize that Bibby shoots a lot right? Where are Horford's shots going to come from when he is on the floor with Bibby, JJ, Marvin and Smith? He will be the distant 5th option.

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Yes sir, I know Bibby shoots quite a bit. But he can also set up people. Bibby likes to shoot, but he isn't a chucker. He'll pass it to Horford when open, instead of doing like Lue used to do, when he'd dribble the life out of the ball, then shoot the ball.

Expect his offensive production to go up a little, not dramatically though. Horford's assist numbers may go up though, because he can now kick it out to Bibby for potential wide open jumpers.

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So who should be playing the 4 when Smith isn't in the game?

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Well right now, that guy is Marvin Williams. We could go with Zaza at the 5 and Horford at the 4, but we can only do that when Zaza isn't playing like garbage. So the alternative is to play Marvin at the 4, and someone like JJ at the 3.

So as the team is constructed now, Marvin should play the 4 when Smith isn't in the game, while you keep Horford at the 5. People shouldn't be upset though, because this lineup is set up to run more than ever now. Even if a guy like Solo starts getting spot minutes at the 4, he can run the floor to

As long as they get the ball in Bibby's hands most of the time, our running game should look better than ever.

[exodus]

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You were also making the point that Shelden could do exactly what Horford could do, before the season.

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I have no doubt that Shelden could get 9/9 in 30 minutes. The big difference between the two is on defense. horford has the quickness to defend the pick and roll well and he can cover smaller players on switches. Shelden really can't.

Horford is a better interior defender and a slightly better rebounder. neither one of them has scored well.

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He'll pass it to Horford when open

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And when Horford gets the ball 15 feet from the rim he will most likely hold it and wait to pass to someone. Occassionally he will shoot a jumper. That's it.

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Well right now, that guy is Marvin Williams

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I was thinking long term and i don't see Marvin as a long term answer to back up Smith at the 4. he is too weak.

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As long as they get the ball in Bibby's hands most of the time, our running game should look better than ever.

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I think Bibby's effect on the running game will be small in comparison to his effect in the half court offense. Remember that woody believes in having guys like Smith and Horford push the ball after rebounds.

In the half court those zones won't work so well with Bibby in there and Woodson will be less likely to call for those late game isos for JJ.

[exodus]

So far more people (12) would like to see Horford as a full time 4 than a full time 5 (8).

Since the only roster assumption i made was that Smith was on the roster I see only one way to interpret this. Many people here seem more comfortable with Smith at the 3 than Horford at the 5.

[thesheedera]

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So far more people (12) would like to see Horford as a full time 4 than a full time 5 (8).

Since the only roster assumption i made was that Smith was on the roster I see only one way to interpret this. Many people here seem more comfortable with Smith at the 3 than Horford at the 5.

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Here's how I see it:

Moving Horford to the 4 means that we acquired a center that is better than Horford is at center, is better at center than Smith is at PF, and better at center than Marvin is at small forward. Otherwise Horford will still have to play center, because he'd be our best center available.

Smith is not a better "Small Forward" than Marvin, but I'd rather have a hybrid SF/PF who plays like Josh Smith than a true SF playing like Marvin - I love Marvin, but I'm not an idiot and recognize that even a flawed Smith has to be on the floor as much as possible.

What's funny to me is that people assume that if Smith plays alongside Horford and a center that all of the sudden he has to or will feel the need to start jacking long jumpers. Childress doesn't jack jumpers in his time at the 3, he roams the baselines with great success.

Smith isn't a perfect SF, but there's no reason why our team can't be successful with him on the floor with Horford, random legit Center, Johnson and Bibby.

On the other hand I think Horford IS a perfect PF, and would gladly sacrifice Marvin's role as a starter to get a true center at the 5 and shift Horford to the 4.

[exodus]

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Moving Horford to the 4 means that we acquired a center that is better than Horford is at center,

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Not really.

We don't have to have a center better than Horford in order to change Horfords minutes. If we get a true center and is just as good at C as Horford or even nearly as good then that is enough for Horford not to be playing center full time.

The one thing we need is a guy with size who can play good man D on big post players like Curry, Big Z, etc. He doesn't have to be as good as Horford overall. It just doesn't make sense to wear Horford out against guys so much bigger than him when we don't have to.

[AtLaS]

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What's funny to me is that people assume that if Smith plays alongside Horford and a center that all of the sudden he has to or will feel the need to start jacking long jumpers. Childress doesn't jack jumpers in his time at the 3, he roams the baselines with great success.

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I agree, I actually think Smith could play SF if he needed too now, and I don't think his production would suffer too much. Reason being is that his shot selection has DRASTICALLY improved, it seems that he's realized not to take so many dumb shots.

The only thing I'd be worried about is his defense, but with Horford at PF, and a better C than Horford is at C should make up for it. But honestly, this seems completely moot because it's almost impossible to just acquire a 7 foot center who will average a double double without giving up a TON.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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I agree, I actually think Smith could play SF if he needed too now, and I don't think his production would suffer too much. Reason being is that his shot selection has DRASTICALLY improved, it seems that he's realized not to take so many dumb shots.

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His shot selection has drastically improved because he's catching the ball IN THE POST and is taking his defender down low with his new go to spin move.

He's also able to give more help defensively because naturally defending the 4 instead of the 3 means that you are near the paint more often.

Smoove's position is the 4 folks and it's honestly not even close.

When Josh Smith is around the basket, good things happen. Why on Earth would you move him away from the basket on either side of the ball?

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Not really.

We don't have to have a center better than Horford in order to change Horfords minutes. If we get a true center and is just as good at C as Horford or even nearly as good then that is enough for Horford not to be playing center full time.

The one thing we need is a guy with size who can play good man D on big post players like Curry, Big Z, etc. He doesn't have to be as good as Horford overall. It just doesn't make sense to wear Horford out against guys so much bigger than him when we don't have to.

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If you think a "true center" will improve this team then you are implying that this new "true center" we get will be better than Horford at C.

That's what the basis of improvement is based on. You UPGRADE something.

So if this "true center" isn't more effective than Horford it can't possibly be an upgrade.

[AtLaS]

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His shot selection has drastically improved because he's catching the ball IN THE POST and is taking his defender down low with his new go to spin move.

He's also able to give more help defensively because naturally defending the 4 instead of the 3 means that you are near the paint more often.

Smoove's position is the 4 folks and it's honestly not even close.

When Josh Smith is around the basket, good things happen. Why on Earth would you move him away from the basket on either side of the ball?

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lol are you serious? Please read my comment again..

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I actually think Smith could play SF

if he needed too

now

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[BusBoyIsBack]

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I actually think Smith could play SF

if he needed too

now

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He doesn't "need to".

But he would "need to" if you Made Horford start at 4.

It's ridiculous to put him there.

Would you put Amare Stoudemire at the 3?

[exodus]

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Not really.

We don't have to have a center better than Horford in order to change Horfords minutes. If we get a true center and is just as good at C as Horford or even nearly as good then that is enough for Horford not to be playing center full time.

The one thing we need is a guy with size who can play good man D on big post players like Curry, Big Z, etc. He doesn't have to be as good as Horford overall. It just doesn't make sense to wear Horford out against guys so much bigger than him when we don't have to.

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If you think a "true center" will improve this team then you are implying that this new "true center" we get will be better than Horford at C.

That's what the basis of improvement is based on. You UPGRADE something.

So if this "true center" isn't more effective than Horford it can't possibly be an upgrade.

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LOL wow you never cease to amaze me.

Do you realize that there are 48 minutes at center? Who is playing center right now when Horford isn't? Right now it is Zaza so if we got someone better than Zaza that would be an upgrade.

Geez

[BusBoyIsBack]

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LOL wow you never cease to amaze me.

Do you realize that there are 48 minutes at center? Who is playing center right now when Horford isn't? Right now it is Zaza so if we got someone better than Zaza that would be an upgrade.

Geez

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Isn't your premise that Horford doesn't belong as the STARTER at C? That would imply that the majority of his minutes would not be at C.

That implies that we could get someone of his caliber to replace his minutes there.

It's only 15 guys who fit that description right now and none of them are for sale

[exodus]

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LOL wow you never cease to amaze me.

Do you realize that there are 48 minutes at center? Who is playing center right now when Horford isn't? Right now it is Zaza so if we got someone better than Zaza that would be an upgrade.

Geez

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Isn't your premise that Horford doesn't belong as the STARTER at C? That would imply that the majority of his minutes would not be at C.

That implies that we could get someone of his caliber to replace his minutes there.

It's only 15 guys who fit that description right now and none of them are for sale

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You should read your own post.

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So if this "true center"

isn't more effective than Horford it can't possibly be an upgrade.

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So if we get a center who is better than Zaza but not as good as Horford, did we upgrade the roster?

Yes or no

*waits for next dodge*

[exodus]

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Isn't your premise that Horford doesn't belong as the STARTER at C? That would imply that the majority of his minutes would not be at C.

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Bosh made the All-Star team at center but doesn't start there on his own team.

I didn't imply anything. You keep putting words in my mouth. I have made it very clear that i believe Horford would be better off if his minutes were fairly evenly distributed between the 4 and 5. How many times do i have to repeat it before you understand it?

That distribution would change nightly depending on the matchups.