Childress needs to hit the road

[exodus]

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Again, for the third time, I will reiterrate that your argument does not establish that he hurts the team, rather it only shows that he hurts the shooting percentages of certain teammates.

So having the worst +/- on the roster doesn't show he has a negative impact? OK

People point to Childress shooting percentage as a positive. But when you look at the effect that he has on the shooting percentages of other players his outlook on offense doesn't look so good.

Diesel tried to argue that this negative effect could be explained by the fact that Childress comes off the bench. So far nobody has shown any evidence that this is the case.

If Childress was starting he would still cause the same spacing problems and neither of you has shown 1 player who causes a similar problem.

On defense he is a straight liability. he is too slow and weak to play good defense and what makes it worse is that he leaks out instead of hitting the defensive glass and he is slow to get back on D because he is always hanging around the rim for putbacks.

[exodus]

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shooting percentages but I imagine that because of a total negative impact across the board for all the players I mentioned, at least one of them has a negative impact similar to what Childress has.

That is just simpleminded guesswork.

The Hawks score 4 ppg fewer when Smith is playing. Since he plays the 4 he isn't expected to hit perimeter shots and space the floor. The reason the offense suffers when he is in is that he can't shoot, has poor shot selection and turns it over way too much.

That is completely different from the effect Childress has.

[TroyMcClure]

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I will reiterrate that your argument does not establish that he hurts the team

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Childress can't create at all and kills spacing.

First off, let me say that I don't team up with ex often. Secondly, would you rather play with a grown man that can stroke a j, or a 15 yr old kid with young legs and energy, but a whack j? That's what it amounts to at the NBA level. How do you not see how ke kills spacing? You can't play winning basketball without it. No one respects him on the perimeter. We need shooters. We have energy. Again, let me say, because I haven't been around lately... the problems are huge. Ownership, coaching, management, etc. Childress is on the list, though. We need to dump him while we can.

[hawkman]

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You might as well make your signature just "*crickets*" because that is your close with every post. I am not going to waste my time to show shooting percentages but I imagine that because of a total negative impact across the board for all the players I mentioned, at least one of them has a negative impact similar to what Childress has.

Again, for the third time, I will reiterrate that your argument does not establish that he hurts the team, rather it only shows that he hurts the shooting percentages of certain teammates. If you could show that Childress adversely affects the team when he is on the court then you have an argument. I don't see why everyone is up in arms about an argument about shooting percentages, basketball isn't played standing still shooting jumpers there are more aspects to the game that you could quantify and make an actual argument against Childress with.

Don't bother H. fanatic, it's pointless. I'm trying not to be negative or critical around here these days, but this has to be the most ridiculous thread on the front page of this message board. This is a thread bolstered entirely by meaningless stats. Hey, I ate sausages and eggs for breakfast BOTH days before the last two games we lost. Maybe I should stop eating sausage and eggs now. If this is what amounts to analytical basketball discussion around here, then I'm lost. Heck, Chillz isn't even my "favorite" player on the team and I know he doesn't hurt the team. But I understand that once these agendas get started, the person's mind is made up and nothing will change that, not even reality.

[TheDude]

well i would put the blame of not having enough perimeter shooters on our starting SF, Marvin, who cannot shoot a 3. IMO a starting small forward should be able to shoot fairly ok from the perimeter. Imagine being the other team's SF having to guard a shooter from the outside and then Childress comes in and you've got to run around and then play closer to the basket. Would throw you off.

Childress has a place on this team. I don't think his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. I think the one thing I would ask him to do is get stronger. There are 2 or so layups/dunks a game that if he was stronger I think would either go in, or he would be fouled on for free throws. Not to mention he could post up more players. We could use those points. The rest I think has to do with coaching using that type of talent correctly. Although he is weak, he can still drive on bigger slower players. He is very fluid and athletic and has good ballhandling skills.

[Guest]

I have not said that I think Childress is savior or that he sucks in any way shape or form. You need to stop reading between the lines on this and read what I do say.

I am critiquing Exodus' argument because all he says is shooting percentages of other players suffers when he is in the game. That does not equal a negative impact on the team because there are more factors than just shooting.

Also because Exodus is using statistics I want him to show this through statistics and not through:

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Secondly, would you rather play with a grown man that can stroke a j, or a 15 yr old kid with young legs and energy, but a whack j? That's what it amounts to at the NBA level. How do you not see how ke kills spacing?

That was a horrible analogy by the way. Use statistics to prove your point, thats what I want Ex to do and IF I do make an argument I will use statistics.

[Guest]

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shooting percentages but I imagine that because of a total negative impact across the board for all the players I mentioned, at least one of them has a negative impact similar to what Childress has.

That is just simpleminded guesswork.

Are you critiquing me for not wanting to waste my time going through 82games.com to prove you wrong? You simply laid out a challenge for people to show a SF coming off the bench with a negative impact on all other players. I quickly browsed through roughly half of the NBA teams and found ~7 players who have a negative impact on the +/- team. Chances are that at least one will also affect all others shooting percentages negatively. You set out a challenge, it was matched and then you quickly backpedalled (like you always do in this situation) and implicitly say "well you answered my challenge, but I am still right because of some ad hoc reason". We have all seen it before and will see it again.

[TroyMcClure]

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This is a thread bolstered entirely by meaningless stats.

This thread is bolstered by the knowledge of what happens when you can't rotate the ball to a shooter. You have a guy who can't get a shot off and has to drive. We need shooters. What is the point of having him. There is not one.

[exodus]

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I think the one thing I would ask him to do is get stronger.

people have been saying that since his rookie year. Have you noticed any strength gain since his rookie year? I haven't.

At some point you just have to accept this is the way he is.

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well i would put the blame of not having enough perimeter shooters on our starting SF, Marvin, who cannot shoot a 3.

While it is true marvin doesn't shoot 3s it is also true that he doesn't have the negative impact on the shooting of other players. His shot has been inconsistent but he was hitting the perimeter shots early in the year and teams have to run out on him.

JJ shot 4.8% better with Marvin than with Childress.

Marvin also doesn't run out all the time. he actually plays D. Marvin isnt a good rebounder by any means but he gets nearly 50% more defensive rebounds than Childress.

[Guest]

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So having the worst +/- on the roster doesn't show he has a negative impact? OK

When did you say that in this thread? I did not see that, so finally you are starting to build an actual argument like I was critiquing you about. You don't have to have such a d*ck response in the situation.

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People point to Childress shooting percentage as a positive. But when you look at the effect that he has on the shooting percentages of other players his outlook on offense doesn't look so good.

Well have you also went in and looked at how the team shoots when he is on the floor? His negative impact on other shooters could possibly be negated because of his high shooting percentage. Also shooting percentage isn't always a great way of measuring how efficient an offense is. Have you looked at his impact on FT shooting? Or offensive rebounds? Or turnovers? These are all factors you don't look at and are missing in an actual argument against Childress. All you did with this post was take one aspect, point to it and say "see guys, I told you so".

[exodus]

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shooting percentages but I imagine that because of a total negative impact across the board for all the players I mentioned, at least one of them has a negative impact similar to what Childress has.

That is just simpleminded guesswork.

Are you critiquing me for not wanting to waste my time going through 82games.com to prove you wrong? You simply laid out a challenge for people to show a SF coming off the bench with a negative impact on all other players. I quickly browsed through roughly half of the NBA teams and found ~7 players who have a negative impact on the +/- team. Chances are that at least one will also affect all others shooting percentages negatively. You set out a challenge, it was matched and then you quickly backpedalled (like you always do in this situation) and say implicitly say "well you answered my challenge, but I am still right because of some ad hoc reason". We have all seen it before and will see it again.

First of all it isn't my problem if you can't read or don't want to try to find an answer.

Secondly the fact that you are comparing Childress to guys like Thorton (a rookie who missed the rookie challenge) and Ross is telling.

[TroyMcClure]

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I have not said that I think Childress is savior or that he sucks in any way shape or form. You need to stop reading between the lines on this and read what I do say.

I am critiquing Exodus' argument because all he says is shooting percentages of other players suffers when he is in the game. That does not equal a negative impact on the team because there are more factors than just shooting.

Also because Exodus is using statistics I want him to show this through statistics and not through:

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Secondly, would you rather play with a grown man that can stroke a j, or a 15 yr old kid with young legs and energy, but a whack j? That's what it amounts to at the NBA level. How do you not see how ke kills spacing?

That was a horrible analogy by the way. Use statistics to prove your point, thats what I want Ex to do and IF I do make an argument I will use statistics.

I can't help you. The analogy is sound. You obviously haven't tried to get a shot off on a 6'5" guy in awhile, huh? It really helps if you can release from above your face. The inability to do that is a real rhythm killer in a possession. That's the crux of the argument. Oh, and we really don't need him, he's weak, we suck and we should dump him while we can, to get a better mix as a team... I think. That's my opinion.

[exodus]

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So having the worst +/- on the roster doesn't show he has a negative impact? OK

When did you say that in this thread?

Post 10985

While we're on the subject of reading here is what i said specifically in my challenge.

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If being a bench player makes a difference then show me another bench player that has a consistent negative effect

on the guys playing the most minutes

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Diesel tried to argue that Childress had a negative impact on players shooting because he played off the bench.

[exodus]

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Well have you also went in and looked at how the team shoots when he is on the floor?

That is easy.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL8D.HTM

I didn't use this since it could be argued that Childress is frequently playing with a bunch of our scrub bench players.

[Guest]

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Secondly the fact that you are comparing Childress to guys like Thorton (a rookie who missed the rookie challenge) and Ross is telling.

Haha, they were just guys that I saw when looking through the first half of NBA teams.

You really are a sore person when it comes to people answering your challenges, now you are critiquing who I picked even though I told you I just went through the first half of NBA teams. Yet again we see what I said, "you answered my challenge, but I am still right because of (insert ad hoc)" and I guess the ad hoc for this time is that I chose people who you don't see fit. I guess they aren't SF and don't come off the bench?

[Guest]

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I can't help you. The analogy is sound. You obviously haven't tried to get a shot off on a 6'5" guy in awhile, huh? It really helps if you can release from above your face. The inability to do that is a real rhythm killer in a possession. That's the crux of the argument. Oh, and we really don't need him, he's weak, we suck and we should dump him while we can, to get a better mix as a team... I think. That's my opinion.

Good use of statistics here. I know its your opinion and you can express it that way, but I don't see how this has to do with me critiquing Ex's argument through statistics.

I find it funny, while you said a couple posts ago that you don't team up with Ex often, it appears you team against me in a majority of things even if its a trivial topic. Not really pertinent to this thread, but aside from not liking BK I can't recall something you have agreed with me on.

[exodus]

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You really are a sore person when it comes to people answering your challenges

Nobody has answered it yet. The fact that you think someone has actually answered is pretty funny. since you didn't understand it the first two times allow me to post it again.

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If being a bench player makes a difference then show me another bench player that has a consistent negative effect

on the guys playing the most minutes

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Just looking at the +/- of bench players is simple minded. it doesn't take into account the fact that bench players are frequently playing with other bench players that suck. That is why i used guys who played a lot of minutes in evaluating Childress.

[Guest]

Well now the argument builds, you should have used these kinds of stats when you started this thread. I still find it lacking in a some aspects to actually show his negative impact on the team.

[Guest]

I should probably just say refer back to my previous posts in response to this. Maybe I should have just wasted my time proving you wrong with 82games.com and that might have saved me the time answering all your posts. I doubt it though.

[exodus]

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Well now the argument builds, you should have used these kinds of stats when you started this thread. I still find it lacking in a some aspects to actually show his negative impact on the team.

Our bench players suck. Childress was frequently playing with guys like shelden, Blo or Zaza. Therefore to me it doesn't make sense to use the overall comparison.