Second Half Hawks...

[Diesel]

I think one of the things that we really need to do to have an honest conversation about our Hawks is look in detail at the 2nd Half Hawks. We are a different beast than what we were in the first half of last season.

So here goes...

1. Records: 18-23, 12-7 (Home), 6-16 (away).

Here's something that needs clearing up. People say our weakness is rebounding.

In the second half, we out-rebounded our opponents: 1739 to 1648. or 42.4 to 40.2 per game. BTW, we were 8th in the league in rebounding differential.

There are some who harp continuously about our three point shooting.

In the second half, we shot 38.4% from three. We were ranked 8th in 3 pt percentage.

Some people harp continuously about Smoove shooting threes or Smoove not being a good shooter.

In the second half, Smoove only attempted 43 3pters. That's just about 1 3pter per game. Bibby attempted 187 and Joe attempted 214. Salim attempted 51. While poor Marvin attempted 4.

The area that hurt us the most in the second half is Turnovers. Yep Turnovers. We're ranked 27th in turnover differential. I think it makes a huge difference. JJ, Smoove, and Bibby have to cut down on the turnovers. My feeling is that a true to life offense with sets would help us cut down on the turnovers.

Our best area is fouls. We put less people at the line and we tend to go to the line a lot more with Bibby here.

Another area that hurt us is defensive FG%. We need to play better defense.

One thing that I can gather from this is that Smoove can be moved to Sf. I know the harpers will talk about Smoove shooting three pointers. Well, the truth is that Marvin is not shooting three pointers. Marvin shot 10 darn three pointers on the season. 4 in the second half. For a Sf, that's laughable. We should see what it would take to get Diop here or Pryz here.

[Admin]

Poster:"The sky is a really weird color today."

Diesel: "True, but that's because Marvin sucks and moreover we should look to trade him for any garbage that we can get?"

[Cwell]

Garbage for garbage is an even exchange,but Marvin will be more than garbage but not much more.Never a star or somebody that's a threat to anybody.

[Eddielives]

I think Marvin stays away from the 3 point line because he is afraid it will trip him up.

[Cwell]

lol

[Admin]

LOL that is funny, and possibly true, but at least he knows his limitations which is more than I can say for our number one chucker.

[pimp]

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I think Marvin stays away from the 3 point line because he is afraid it will trip him up.

You may be on to something there.

Notice how Marvin falls down alot when he drives toward the free throw line.

Must be something wrong with those damn lines!

[exodus]

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we were 8th in the league in rebounding differential.

That is deceiving because we are one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the league but at the same time one of the best offensive rebounding teams. A big reason the defense was subpar was the lack of defensive rebounding.

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In the second half, Smoove only attempted 43 3pters.

He continued to take a lot of long 2s and took 18 threes against Boston.

Marvin doesn't take 3s but he does make a lot of shots in the 18-20 foot range that Smith can't make.

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The area that hurt us the most in the second half is Turnovers. Yep Turnovers.

yeah that was a problem all year and points back to our poor pg play. Our pgs couldn't create so it was left to JJ and Smith to be playmakers far too often and as a result they turned it over a lot.

Bibby's playmaking, ball handling and passing are weak.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Poster:

"The sky is a really weird color today."

Diesel:

"True, but that's because Marvin sucks and moreover we should look to trade him for any garbage that we can get?"

LOL . . gotta love "Dieselogic". In his "six degrees of separation" world, everything relates back to Marvin.

[Diesel]

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Poster:

"The sky is a really weird color today."

Diesel:

"True, but that's because Marvin sucks and moreover we should look to trade him for any garbage that we can get?"

LOL . . gotta love "Dieselogic". In his "six degrees of separation" world, everything relates back to Marvin.

I gotta LOL at you and Dolfan putting Marvin in the witness protection program.

seriously...

Do you notice how anyone who mentions Marvin either playing off the bench or getting traded is immediately attacking by these witness protection agents?

If you didn't notice, I mentioned getting a defensive Center in here so that we can put Horf at PF and play Smoove at Sf.

Dolfan, why is that such a threat to you?? Why is that worthy of an attack on me? You're trying to belittle what I have said, however, why not address it??

Maybe because your love for Marvin won't let you see the truth.

Marvin brings NOTHING to this team.

IF we can find a way to get a defensive C, Marvin will be 6th or 7th man. Maybe he can trip over the witness protection rope that you tell him to hold on to on this board!

[bronnt]

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Some people harp continuously about Smoove shooting threes or Smoove not being a good shooter.

In the second half,

Smoove only attempted 43 3pters

. That's just about 1 3pter per game.

One thing that I can gather from this is that Smoove can be moved to Sf. I know the harpers will talk about Smoove shooting three pointers. Well, the truth is that Marvin is not shooting three pointers. Marvin shot 10 darn three pointers on the season. 4 in the second half. For a Sf, that's laughable. We should see what it would take to get Diop here or Pryz here.

Josh Smith only hit 11 of those three pointers. 25%. That's a poor percentage. But he didn't stop taking them with plenty of time on the shotclock. And the issue with Josh isn't just his three point shooting.

Josh is just bad at jumpshooting. Doesn't really matter the range. He takes a lot of them, and anything from 16 feet on out is a bad shot. He chucks airballs, throws up ugly bouncers that catch the bottom of the backboard, nail the underside of them rim, etc. He hits about 25% of his jumpshots from outside the three point line, about 30% of his jumpshots from inside the three point line. It's a terrible percentage, and it never deters him from taking more of those shots.

The big issue is that he's actually GOT GAME. He can score off the dribble when he's in control. He's quick, powerful, and can outjump nearly everyone. He can drive in and get his points. He's got a good hook shot. He's effective with that. He can dunk on anyone. He can drop in floaters from a few feet. He can bank in some extremely difficult layups because of his strength. He's got enough speed and strength to actually give KG a tough time guarding him on the low post. And he gets to the foul line at a high rate when he decides to go to the rim.

In short, he's very effective at scoring at or around the basket. He's very INeffective at scoring more than 16 feet from the basket. His outside shots need to be extremely limited from that range because he's able to create better from closer-they are not.

Marvin is not a star player. He may never be a star player. He knows his limits, though. He basically gets his offense on catch-and-shoot jumpers, and his success rate on those plays is fairly high. He does sometimes try to force things in the post, but in fact, those seem to be called plays to isolate Marvin in the post (even when he's on bigger defenders) which is INSANE because his game suffers when he's got his back to the basket. Marvin does have a lot of work to do in order to help meet some of the needs on the roster. He needs to develop some kind of post move-like a turnaround J, which I point out whenever I can, is something I think he CAN add to his skillset, and a good shot fake to pair with it. He also needs to stretch his range out a bit more to open the defense up just a little. And he needs to work on his body control when he drives. He needs to bulk up a little to become a better defender. He did, however, create a role for himself on offense last year and executed it fairly well. You'll find that we won a lot of the games where Marvin was hitting open jump shots at a high percentage.

[DrReality]

When you post against D it just encourages him. Best thing is to just ingnore him.

[Murat]

Marvin compares well to Deng though, Deng took only 7 three's in 06-07 season while playing 82 games. Last season he took 22. Marvin's problem is not the 3 point shot, he needs to create better of the dribble. I would like him to develop that 3 point shot, but first he needs to improve at creating and finishing, where Deng is much better than him.

[Zone034life]

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Marvin compares well to Deng though, Deng took only 7 three's in 06-07 season while playing 82 games. Last season he took 22. Marvin's problem is not the 3 point shot, he needs to create better of the dribble. I would like him to develop that 3 point shot, but first he needs to improve at creating and finishing, where Deng is much better than him.

Luol Deng is a far better player than Marvin Williams. If you just watch the games you will see that Smoove for the Hawks and Deng for the Bulls have a greater impact on the game. An only mid range jump shooting SF is not worthy of being a starter. You ever notice on how many things Marvin needs to learn how to do? Some of you need to realize he probably will never be at his best in a Hawks uniform. He needs to go somewhere else where he can be taught and given more opportunities to learn. Coming in on year four and he plays more like a project than a player coming into his own.

[Plainview1981]

That's great.

[Diesel]

I think we need to define Josh Smith in this light.

There are things we would love to see him do..

There are things that he's not doing well..

We would all love to see Smoove become a great slasher who takes people off the dribble. However, it's not right for us to penalize him because he is not that. And that's what I see a lot in posts. I have put the numbers here for a reason. Not just for Smoove but for the Hawks. IN the second half, Smoove only shot 43 three pointers. IF you listen to the daily gripes about Smoove, you would think he was shooting 5 a game. Salim Stoudamire who sees limited action shot more three pointers than Smoove over the 2nd half of the season.

So now people like Exodus says.. Well, he's shooting Ty Corbin Jumpshots...

My response is this. Over the second half of the season, Smoove shot 47.8% from the field. That includes his 25% from 3... and those Ty Corbin Jumpers. If you take the 3pters away, he's shooting 49.4% on 499 shots attempted. I don't think anybody has a problem with dude hitting damn near 50% on his shots..

[Diesel]

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Marvin compares well to Deng though, Deng took only 7 three's in 06-07 season while playing 82 games. Last season he took 22. Marvin's problem is not the 3 point shot, he needs to create better of the dribble. I would like him to develop that 3 point shot, but first he needs to improve at creating and finishing, where Deng is much better than him.

Marvin's problem may not be three point shooting, but the Hawks problem is something similar. JJ gets doubled and there's nobody to kick it out to. The reason why JJ is easily doubled is because Marvin is not a three point threat. To a defensive team, to see Marvin at the three point line is not going to scare them.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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We would all love to see Smoove become a great slasher who takes people off the dribble. However, it's not right for us to penalize him because he is not that. And that's what I see a lot in posts. I have put the numbers here for a reason. Not just for Smoove but for the Hawks. IN the second half, Smoove only shot 43 three pointers. IF you listen to the daily gripes about Smoove, you would think he was shooting 5 a game. Salim Stoudamire who sees limited action shot more three pointers than Smoove over the 2nd half of the season.

Like another poster said, it's not just the 3-pointers, it's jumpshots PERIOD.

You want numbers? Here are some numbers for you.

It's been widely documented that Smith shoots 25% from 3-point range. But 82games.com has some great detailed stats on how our top 5 guys for most of the season shoot ( JJ, Smoove, Marvin, Horford, and Chill ) .

- Smith shoots 25% on 3-point shots

- Smith shoots 29% on 2-point shots that aren't at point blank range

- Smith shoots over 60% on point blank ( inside ) shots

- Smith is #5 in the league in "and-1" opportunities

But you, and a small few others INSIST that Smith would be OK at the 3. Forget that 25% number from 3, the 29% number from 2 is more damning, in my opinion. The majority of those 2 point shots are all of those 16 - 21 foot jumpers that he loves to take . . and miss.

To put just how bad that is in perspective, Horford shoots 39% on those 2 point shots, which is actually good for a big man. ( and is actually closer to Marvin's 41% on those shots ). Zaza shoots 31%, which is horrible, but still better than Smith.

Only Chill is worse, at 28%. But even Chill can shoot in the mid-30% range on those wide open 3's. The difference, is that Chill will take almost everything to the hole. He rarely setttles for jumpers, even when open. But the fact that Chill only shoots 28% on 2 point shots that arent at point blank range, is a MAJOR reason why people don't like Childress.

Meanwhile, Smith is #5 in the league in possible "and-1s".

#5 in the league. He's up there with some of the elite players in the league in this category.

And the reason he's #5 is because most PF's can't check him when he puts the ball on the floor. If he'd get a little more aggressive going to the hole, he'd either convert more lay-ups or dunks or get fouled even more. He is a very legit offensive weapon when he plays like this.

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So now people like Exodus says.. Well, he's shooting Ty Corbin Jumpshots...

My response is this. Over the second half of the season, Smoove shot 47.8% from the field. That includes his 25% from 3... and those Ty Corbin Jumpers. If you take the 3pters away, he's shooting 49.4% on 499 shots attempted. I don't think anybody has a problem with dude hitting damn near 50% on his shots..

And I can almost guarantee you that he shot that high because most of his makes were coming from point blank range. Bibby got that kid a lot of easy looks. If nba.com had our "hotspots" data updated for this year, we could see this for sure.

You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up.

80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

[Wurider05]

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80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

This is just plain ordinary common sense!!!! I could not have said it better myself.

[Diesel]

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And I can almost guarantee you that he shot that high because most of his makes were coming from point blank range. Bibby got that kid a lot of easy looks. If nba.com had our "hotspots" data updated for this year, we could see this for sure.

You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up.

80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

Here's the problem.

If I tell you that there's a player who is a Sf who is shooting 50% from the field.

Do you really care if most of his shots are on dunks?

Sorry Northcyde but 50% is 50%!!!!

It's the same league. He's playing against the same defenses... What makes a guy shooting 44% from midrange better than a guy getting 50% from "point blank range". If there's a guy who's Shaqing his way to 50% and he's playing the Sf position... I want that guy on my team.

You act as if the defenses change? They don't. There's no second squad that comes out for Smoove. He's hitting 50% of his FGs... Period.