Second Half Hawks...

[Diesel]

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80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

This is just plain ordinary common sense!!!! I could not have said it better myself.

You know Wu. Sometimes what seems like common sense turns out to be one man's opinion.

I want to remind you of what you were "Me tooing"...

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You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up.

This is Northcyde's statement. However, the problem is that this is the statement of a person who doesn't watch the Hawks much.

In essence, Smoove already plays the Sf. Smoove doesn't play in the post now. Smoove play high elbow or wing. The reason why most of us get upset with his shooting habits is because he takes those wide open shots. That's generally because when he gets the ball at the wing... He's wide open. Teams are willing to give him that shot. Over the second half of the season, Smoove learned to pass up the open shot and drive. That's great.

At SF, Marvin doesn't play wing. Marvin plays High post & midrange. He's always in the midrange. That's about 2 steps in front of where Smoove plays. IF we were to switch Smoove to Sf (where Marvin plays) he would have a shorter distance than he has now to get to the rim. He would also have an easier shot.

Here's the other thing. ABout Cs and PFs rotating in front of Smoove. Smoove is a much better ball handler than Marvin. You ever notice that when Marvin drives, bigs rotate and Marvin runs them over... OFFENSIVE CHARGE... Well, when Smoove drives now from the high elbow, guys rotate, but Smoove does a very good job of not causing the offensive foul. Maybe some stathead can find those numbers. The point is that driving would definitely put Smoove on the line. Smoove was meant to be a slasher.

This is the deal though...

Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots.

50% my friend is 50%.

That means common sense in this case, is one man's opinion with the wrong basis.

[exodus]

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Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots.

50% my friend is 50%.

Huh? You sure come up with some bizarre stuff sometimes. Last i checked Smith shot 46% from the field this season.

Setting aside your numbers confusion, do you not realize that if Smith plays the 3 he will have a quicker player on him, thus making it tougher for him to drive?

[Diesel]

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Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots.

50% my friend is 50%.

Huh? You sure come up with some bizarre stuff sometimes. Last i checked Smith shot 46% from the field this season.

Setting aside your numbers confusion, do you not realize that if Smith plays the 3 he will have a quicker player on him, thus making it tougher for him to drive?

Before you go all over the board, spamming my post, I suggest that you follow the thread because that's what we're discussing!

[exodus]

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Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots.

50% my friend is 50%.

Huh? You sure come up with some bizarre stuff sometimes. Last i checked Smith shot 46% from the field this season.

Setting aside your numbers confusion, do you not realize that if Smith plays the 3 he will have a quicker player on him, thus making it tougher for him to drive?

Before you go all over the board, spamming my post, I suggest that you follow the thread because that's what we're discussing!

If you are talking about just the second half the same issue still applies. Smith can't shoot jumper of any length. But he can beat opposing 4s off the dribble because he has a quickness advantage over them. That quickness advantage disappears if he moves to the 3. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

[Cwell]

what's funny is people laughed at me when I said Marvin has the worst handle of the starters,including Smoove.Funny how they bag on his handle saying stuff like he couldn't dribble from half court untouched without losing the ball,yet he takes it coast to coast on the regular with no problem.Marvin almost tripped the 12 times he tried to handle the ball this season.gosh, please trade Marvin.

ps. Smoove is NO SF in any way shape or form

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

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You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up.

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This is Northcyde's statement. However, the problem is that this is the statement of a person who doesn't watch the Hawks much.

LMAO . . suuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrreeee budddddddddyyyyyyy !!

You forget . . . I'm the cat that was telling all of you even before the season started, to RECORD THESE GAMES, because that's exactly what I, and a few others do.

I'm also the cat that traveled 300 miles to ATL to see Hawks games in person 8 times this year ( twice during the playoffs ). I watch tapes of the Hawks all the time. Save that "he doesn't watch Hawks games much" ish for somebody who really doesn't.

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In essence, Smoove already plays the Sf. Smoove doesn't play in the post now. Smoove play high elbow or wing.

Most of us that have played organized basketball, call that a high post offense, where the center ( or best low post player ) will play in the low post, and the power forward will play in the high post. It's the same spot where PFs like KG, Duncan, Bosh, and especially Amare Stoudamire receive the ball.

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The reason why most of us get upset with his shooting habits is because he takes those wide open shots. That's generally because when he gets the ball at the wing... He's wide open. Teams are willing to give him that shot.

We get upset because he makes less than 30% of his outside shots. That's like hitting below .200 in baseball. Nobody would have a problm with him, if he'd just pick nd choose his spots to go hard to the hole. But you want him to stand 20 feet from the basket, and have the opponent literally dare him to shoot. People like KG and Rasheed even talk ish to him, when daring him to shoot.

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Over the second half of the season, Smoove learned to pass up the open shot and drive. That's great.

At SF, Marvin doesn't play wing. Marvin plays High post & midrange. He's always in the midrange. That's about 2 steps in front of where Smoove plays. IF we were to switch Smoove to Sf (where Marvin plays) he would have a shorter distance than he has now to get to the rim. He would also have an easier shot.

Now that's just idiotic. Marvin always sets up about a step inside the 3 point line, whether it be along the baseline or from the wing. Marvin is a catch and shoot guy, and he likes to literally jump into his shot as he's catching a pass, then shoot. Marvin's jumpers almost always come from 18 - 22 feet from the basket.

The elbow is right outside the FT line on either side, about 15 - 18 feet from the basket. When he gets the ball in that area, he's in a perfect position to drive the ball, much like Amare ( and Diaw ) does. But when someone like JJ has the ball, and is looking for the open man, Smith tends to drift out toward that 3 point line, where he knows he'lll be open. So when a doubled JJ throws it to him, he's 22 ft from the basket, and his man pretty much makes no effort to close him out hard. That's when he shoots.

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Here's the other thing. ABout Cs and PFs rotating in front of Smoove. Smoove is a much better ball handler than Marvin. You ever notice that when Marvin drives, bigs rotate and Marvin runs them over... OFFENSIVE CHARGE... Well, when Smoove drives now from the high elbow, guys rotate, but Smoove does a very good job of not causing the offensive foul. Maybe some stathead can find those numbers. The point is that driving would definitely put Smoove on the line. Smoove was meant to be a slasher.

With Smith, it's not just the charges, it's those Magic Johnson passes he tries to make. Sometimes they work. Most of the time they don't. Kind of like his jumper. People jump in front of Smith all the time.

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This is the deal though...

Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots.

50% my friend is 50%.

That means common sense in this case, is one man's opinion with the wrong basis.

It's 50% at PF, not SF.

Put him at SF, and it's jumpshot city for Smoove, and a low 40% overall FG%. Then he'll start to pout like AK47 did, when Sloan would occasionally go with Matt Harpring at the end of games. You'd expose every flaw in Smith's game, instead of playing to his strengths, just for the sake of benching Marvin.

[Diesel]

First of all for those of us who have played basketball on some level outside of the local church..

Let's get some definition.

High Post is at the key intersection. (this is where Marvin plays). ( about 12 feet)

High Elbow or WING is at the intersection of the three point line and the interpolated line made by the key. this is where Smoove normally lines up. (about 16 feet).

Low post is down beside the goal (rt or lft) at the base of the foul line that is now drawn for all to see and count fouls by.

IF Smoove played High post where Marvin sets up, that wouldn't be so much of a problem. However he plays higher on the elbow. That's why he always has those wide open 3 point opportunities.

Marvin plays at the most at the high post. That's why he never takes three pointers.

I don't need your resume of games watched, I read your diatribe about Smoove having to change his game and drive from outside. If you were at all these games 300 miles away from home, you would notice that we use Smoove more like a SF than a PF. He's not a Karl Malone/Shawn Kemp PF for if he were he'd be located where Marvin plays in the high post.

He's normally set up at the wing or the high elbow position. Moreover, you might be mad because Smoove is shooting 25% and he takes the shot anyway. But for me, even when he hits an open three, I'm mad that he took the shot because when the team backs off of him, he needs to have it in his mind to drive and make them foul him!

My commentary about Smoove all year long has been that he's afraid to take the ball inside. He needs to drop this fineese crap and become a true to life beast. He can do it in Woody's disjointed offense, but he has to make smart decisions. One of the rules of basketball... Take more than what the defense gives you. Because the defense is always looking to give you the hardest shot. With Smoove's handle and athleticism, he should be at the rim every play! That's what frustrates me.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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First of all for those of us who have played basketball on some level outside of the local church..

Let's get some definition.

High Post is at the key intersection. (this is where Marvin plays). ( about 12 feet)

High Elbow or WING is at the intersection of the three point line and the interpolated line made by the key. this is where Smoove normally lines up. (about 16 feet).

Low post is down beside the goal (rt or lft) at the base of the foul line that is now drawn for all to see and count fouls by.

LMAO. This wll be my last post on this thread, because you have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about. Marvin never lines up 12 feet from the basket. If you actaually watched games, or re-watched them, you'd know this. Sometimes, in the double-low offense, he'll be along the baseline and come off a screen toward the elbow area and receive a pass to shoot his jumper.

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IF Smoove played High post where Marvin sets up, that wouldn't be so much of a problem. However he plays higher on the elbow. That's why he always has those wide open 3 point opportunities.

Marvin plays at the most at the high post. That's why he never takes three pointers.

Smith usually lines up somewhee between the FT line and the top of the key, on either side. Marvin is always out by the 3 point line on the wing, or along the baseline. As a play develops, Marvin will either stay 21 or so feet from the basket and wait for the ball, or take a step or two in, so that he can shoot the 18 foot jumper.

Smith, if he receives the ball in this area, and is isolated on a PF, he'll look to drive the ball to the hole. If he's 20 feet or more away, his man will back off, looking for him to drive. That's normally when Smith will take the long jumper.

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I don't need your resume of games watched, I read your diatribe about Smoove having to change his game and drive from outside. If you were at all these games 300 miles away from home, you would notice that we use Smoove more like a SF than a PF. He's not a Karl Malone/Shawn Kemp PF for if he were he'd be located where Marvin plays in the high post.

Smith has a limited post up game and a terrible jumpshot. So we use him to play to his strength, which is driving the basketball against slower PFs. That's why he's a "tweener".

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He's normally set up at the wing or the high elbow position. Moreover, you might be mad because Smoove is shooting 25% and he takes the shot anyway. But for me, even when he hits an open three, I'm mad that he took the shot because when the team backs off of him, he needs to have it in his mind to drive and make them foul him!

Exactly. I'm mad when he takes that open 3 pointer, because I know he'll miss it 75% of the time. And that's why he should drive and make them foul him. Either that, or pass up the shot and get the ball to someone else.

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My commentary about Smoove all year long has been that he's afraid to take the ball inside. He needs to drop this fineese crap and become a true to life beast. He can do it in Woody's disjointed offense, but he has to make smart decisions.

I agree. That's why my sig during all last summer was "I want to see less Rasheed Wallace, and more Shawn Kemp, out of Josh Smith this season."

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One of the rules of basketball... Take more than what the defense gives you. Because the defense is always looking to give you the hardest shot. With Smoove's handle and athleticism, he should be at the rim every play! That's what frustrates me.

So you actually agree with me in how he should play. But you have such an agenda against Marvin starting, that you'd put Smith at SF out on the perimeter . . with a quicker man guardng him . . which would hamper him getting to the hole . . which would entice him to take even more 18 - 23 foot jumpers that he can't consistently make.

This is Josh Smith in a nutshell:

Game 6 - 3rd quarter ( 9:32 left ) - Hawks have the ball on a side-out - they trail Boston 57 - 51

Hawk player positions at time of inbounds pass:

- JJ is inbounding the ball

- Bibby is 6 feet away from JJ, near the Philips Arena logo

- Horford is in the low block on the right side

- Smith is between the FT line and the top of the key in the middle

- Marvin is just inside the 3 point line in the left corner

Play development:

- Bibby gets the inbounds pass, then gets the ball back to JJ who is about 21 feet from the basket.

- Horford rotates toward the top of the key, possibly looking to set a pick

- Smith slides over to almost the 3 point line on the left side.

- Marvin takes a few steps closer to the basket, and stops at around the 18 - 20 foot mark along the left baseline

- Perkins rotates toward JJ to help Ray Allen double him.

- Seeing this, JJ immeadiately spins, and goes hard to the goal along the baseline

- As Perkins and Allen force JJ to the baseline and under the basket, Garnett and Pierce also react to JJ

- There are literally 4 Celtics within 3 feet of JJ, and he's completely under the goal, looking to pass to someone.

Hawk player positions at the time of the pass:

- JJ is trapped and looking to pass

- Marvin is just inside the 3 point line on the baseline, ready to receive the pass

- Hoford drifts back down on the right side, to around 15 feet, but he is behind JJ and can't see him.

- Bibby is still behind the 3 point line on the right side.

- Smith is also behind the 3 point line, on the left side, ready to receive the pass.

Play development:

- The easiest pass for JJ to make, is to Smith.

- Smith catches, but fumbles the ball a little.

- Rondo rotates toward Smith, then realizes that he just left Bibby wide open, so he stops halfway and races back toward Bibby

- Smith, who is wide open, takes the 3 pointer with Garnett half-heartedly jumping out at him.

Result: An air ball

Comment from Mark Jackson right after that play: "If you're the Hawks, you have to realize that they're double teaming Joe Johnson, so put yourself in position to catch and make a play."

The reason why Jackson says this, is because if Smith would've drifted toward the goal as JJ was driving and being trapped, JJ could've easily found Smith for a dunk, if Smith catches the pass and goes hard to the rim. At the very least, he possibly gets fouled on the play. Instead, he stays out on the perimeter, and misses a shot badly.

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But the beauty of Smith as a player playing the PF position, is that on the ensuing Celtic possession, KG tries to quickly establish post position on Smith down the court. Rondo gets the ball to Garnett, who thinks he has an easy lay-up, but Smith blocks the shot. If he wasn't at PF and matched up against KG, he wouldn't have been able to make that play.

Then on the next Hawk possession, Smith ( who is in the high post around 12 - 15 feet from the basket ), receives a pass from Bibby. He immeadiately throws a bounce pass to Horford, who hits a nice hook shot in the lane.

As the late Johnny Cochran would say . . . . " I have nothing else to add your Honor."