If Marvin had a greater role on offense.

[mrhonline]

I've wondered for a while what people would think of Marvin if he was taking more shots/game, instead of being asked to defer to JJ, Bibby, and Smith.

Just food for thought:

Luol Deng, 22, 4th season vs. Marvin Williams, 21, 3rd season:

TS%: Marvin

eFg%: Deng

ORB%: Deng

DRB%: Even

AST%: Deng

STL%: Even

BLK%: Even

TOV%: Even

Usage%: Deng

O Rating: Marvin

D Rating: Even

O Win Shares: Marvin

D Win Shares: Marvin

Deng is the better passer and a slightly better offensive rebounder (although I bet his ORB% would go down if he played with "Cherry-Picker").

The biggest difference? Deng takes more shots.

[dalamchops]

when does Marvin ever defer? Everytime he touches the ball he either shoots it (make or miss), drives and dribble off his foot, or initiate contact in ugliest way possible in the paint.

A better question is how good would marvin be if he wasn't so clumsy with the ball.

[exodus]

When Marvin has tried to be more aggressive he ends up turning it over more and shooting a worse percentage. He is simply better off picking his spots. He just isn't a go to player.

His career will depend heavily on whether or not he can hit 3s.

Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

[AtLaS]

Marvin just isn't a go to player, he isn't good enough. It's obvious every time he does try to create or we give him the ball. He's much better off the ball and catch and shoot situations. He defers because he has to.

[mrhonline]

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Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

I find this argument absolutely hilarious. Marvin battles injuries and has four different PG's, but he "just sucks," while "Deng had an off-year." Deng is one of the focal points of the offense, while Marvin is asked to expend significantly more energy on the defensive energy, yet Marvin "just sucks."

I'm not going to bother to go into much detail, but Deng actually improved statistically in several important areas this past season, including offensive rebounding, 3pt%, passing, and overall defensive contributions.

Objectivity has just about died away on Hawksquawk these days.

[mrhonline]

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Marvin just isn't a go to player, he isn't good enough. It's obvious every time he does try to create or we give him the ball. He's much better off the ball and catch and shoot situations. He defers because he has to.

I don't buy this either.

Deng had his struggles early in his first couple of seasons with creating his own shot, as well. The difference is that he was allowed to grow through his mistakes. On the Hawks, that player is Josh Smith, one of the most inefficient 4's in the last decade.

I sincerely believe that even Luol Deng would've struggled if he was in Marvin's situation.

[AtLaS]

Regardless, Deng was still much better than Marvin this year. But honestly, Marvin should base his game similar to Deng's and add 3pt range. Deng isn't great at driving to the basket either, but he is GREAT without the ball (Marvin could improve here), and he has quick one dribble moves to hit his midrange J's. This would really help Marvin, but as of now he doesn't have any goto moves to have a greater role in the offense.

[DJlaysitup]

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...His career will depend heavily on whether or not he can hit 3s...

Agreed 100% ex - and he has to start shooting them to hit them.

[Jammin29]

I like Marvin but i dont think he would succeed more or our team if he got a bigger role, Marvin's game is pretty much open jumpers i hate to say, i think he needs to attack lot more and become more of a SF that can play inside. right now the only way he should get a bigger role is if he gets TJ fords quickness so he can nail some more open jumpers, maybe work with reggie miller in the offseason. Also to get a bigger role, he should get stronger to play inside a bit and get some better handles, marvin isnt aggressive most of the time, theres been times threw the season, when he gets aggressive and plays awsome but the other time he turns it over. more often then not its a turnover, he needs those handles and that strength, is game isnt the clear either, everybody thats not a hawks fan thinks hes a power forward. basically dont give him a bigger role, make him improve first. with that said he imporves every year, in 2 years i think he will be a very good player.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Face it mrH, Matvin is just horrible and will never amount to anything.

But to address your topic, I actually figured up exactly what you are taking about.

If Marvin took 14 shots a game, like Smith did this year, and played the EXACT same way he did this year, he'd average 18 ppg.

But he'd still suck because he wouldn't be averaging 20 ppg.

[exodus]

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Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

I find this argument absolutely hilarious. Marvin battles injuries and has four different PG's, but he "just sucks," while "Deng had an off-year." Deng is one of the focal points of the offense, while Marvin is asked to expend significantly more energy on the defensive energy, yet Marvin "just sucks."

I'm not going to bother to go into much detail, but Deng actually improved statistically in several important areas this past season, including offensive rebounding, 3pt%, passing, and overall defensive contributions.

Objectivity has just about died away on Hawksquawk these days.

First of all i have probably defended Marvin as much as anyone here.

Marvin was fine to start the season. Deng wasn't. he has had back problems all year and still outproduced Marvin soundly.

Marvin was clearly hurting in Feb but he didn't have any nagging injuries all season.

Last year Deng averaged 19/7 shooting 52%. he was also huge in the playoffs. Trying to compare him to Marvin is a joke.

[exodus]

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Face it mrH, Matvin is just horrible and will never amount to anything.

But to address your topic, I actually figured up exactly what you are taking about.

If Marvin took 14 shots a game, like Smith did this year, and played the EXACT same way he did this year, he'd average 18 ppg.

But he'd still suck because he wouldn't be averaging 20 ppg.

YOu could make that argument with anyone. You could say if Childress took 16 shots he could score 20 ppg.

The reality is that Childress can't create his own shot so he can't get that many shots up. Marvin isn't skilled enough to keep his percentages up while taking significantly more shots.

[Kimsey]

You MW back packers are losing more credibility by making excuses for him.

He was drafted number 2 to become the franchise player but most likely won't reach such lofty goals.

What is his go to move? A jumper the opponent begs him to shoot. You notice they rarely contend his jump shot.

He drives hard but it's awfully close to a charge when he makes contact. He's getting the calls now but the refs judgement can go either way.

This team has been looking for a no. 2 scorer for the longest time but he simply not a go to scorer at all. He will defer during crunch time because it's in his nature.

He is a role player, a very good one. He has a 9 foot standing reach and 7'3" wingspan(both longer than JS and AL) but refuses to mix it up down low.

[Zone034life]

You can't want Marvin too have a bigger role, MARVIN has to want a bigger role.First he has to refine his game in many different areas and then he must display it on the court. A stat can't rate a players desire to be nothing more than a role player or an all star. I don't believe Marvin wants to be great or wants the pressure of taking big shots. He is comfortable in the shadows playing off others. If he wanted the job there has been an open spot for him from day one. His game nor attitude shows his role sould increase. You call it being a team player I call it settling for less.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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YOu could make that argument with anyone. You could say if Childress took 16 shots he could score 20 ppg.

The reality is that Childress can't create his own shot so he can't get that many shots up. Marvin isn't skilled enough to keep his percentages up while taking significantly more shots.

The difference between Marvin and Chill, is that Marvin gets his points mainly within the halfcourt set. Getting Marvin 14 shots only means making a commitment to get him the ball within the halfcourt offense. It also means getting him just 3 more shots a game. With Chill, you're talking trying to get him an extra 6 - 7 shots.

So the only thing we can kind of look at, is how Marvin played when he took at least 14 shots last year.

First, I'll list his averages for the season:

34.6 minutes

14.8 ppg

5.7 rebs

1.7 asst

1.0 stls

0.4 blks

1.6 tos

46.2% FG

82.2% FT

Now, Marvin had 24 games in which he took 14 shots or more. In those games, he averaged right at 16 shots a game. Here are his numbers.

38.8 minutes

18.7 ppg

7.1 rebs

1.8 asst

0.9 stls

0.4 blks

1.9 tos

46.1% FG

81% FT

Interesting . . . .

[exodus]

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YOu could make that argument with anyone. You could say if Childress took 16 shots he could score 20 ppg.

The reality is that Childress can't create his own shot so he can't get that many shots up. Marvin isn't skilled enough to keep his percentages up while taking significantly more shots.

The difference between Marvin and Chill, is that Marvin gets his points mainly within the halfcourt set. Getting Marvin 14 shots only means making a commitment to get him the ball within the halfcourt offense. It also means getting him just 3 more shots a game. With Chill, you're talking trying to get him an extra 6 - 7 shots.

So the only thing we can kind of look at, is how Marvin played when he took at least 14 shots last year.

First, I'll list his averages for the season:

34.6 minutes

14.8 ppg

5.7 rebs

1.7 asst

1.0 stls

0.4 blks

1.6 tos

46.2% FG

82.2% FT

Now, Marvin had 24 games in which he took 14 shots or more. In those games, he averaged right at 16 shots a game. Here are his numbers.

38.8 minutes

18.7 ppg

7.1 rebs

1.8 asst

0.9 stls

0.4 blks

1.9 tos

46.1% FG

81% FT

Interesting . . . .

The problem is that there are 82 games and Marvin can't rely on other people to consistently get him good looks. He isn't that good at creating his own shot.

The big gap between him and Deng is finishing inside. Marvin scored 2.3 ppg inside on shots that weren't dunks or tips, shooting 46.7% on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL10A.HTM

By contrast Deng scored 5.2 ppg on those shots this season, shooting 55.6%. Last year he scored 5.1 shooting 58%.

Marvin is clumsy and can't take contact so he struggles to finish inside.

[Hawk88]

I admit to being a Marvin basher and I hope I am wrong but one thing about Marvins numbers. The first 2 years he padded his numbers during garbage time. Most if not all his points coming in the last quarter with the Hawk down by 20. This year he actually contributed a lot during the games that mattered. So let's all give him a little credit there. I thought his nickname should have been the "Garbage Man".

Hawk88

[exodus]

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Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

I find this argument absolutely hilarious. Marvin battles injuries and has four different PG's, but he "just sucks," while "Deng had an off-year." Deng is one of the focal points of the offense, while Marvin is asked to expend significantly more energy on the defensive energy, yet Marvin "just sucks."

I'm not going to bother to go into much detail, but Deng actually improved statistically in several important areas this past season, including offensive rebounding, 3pt%, passing, and overall defensive contributions.

Objectivity has just about died away on Hawksquawk these days.

Deng played in 82 games last year and 63 this season. Funny how Mr Objective failed to mention this.

[macdaddy]

MARVIN, MARVIN, MARVIN!!

[Diesel]

Teams that Marvin averaged more than 14 shots a game....

Charlotte ( 40.8 min, 17.5 pts)

Denver (34.5 min, 19.5 pts)

Phoenix (37 min, 19 pts)

Portland (Close) ( 37.5 min, 14 pts)

Seattle (41.5 min, 25.5 pts)

Toronto (Close) (34.7 min, 17 pts)

So this is Marvin. It's not impressive because out of 30 teams, he only shot more than 14 times a game 4 times. It was against teams who plays little defense or a quick pace. We can't play Seattle every game.

How about teams we see often?

Chicago (33.3 min, 28.2% FG%, 6.75 rpg, 10.25 ppg)

Detroit (34.3 min, 50% FG%, 5.25 rpg, 14.0 ppg)

Miami (37.5 min, 40% FG%, 7.25 rpg, 14.5 ppg)

New Jersey (30 min, 56% FG%, 5 rpg, 17.5 ppg).

New York (36.25 min, 55% FG%, 6.25 rpg, 17 ppg).

Orlando (30 min, 44% FG%, 4.5 rpg, 10.75 ppg)

Philly (36.25 min, 51% FG, 4.5 rpg, 15.5 ppg)

Washington (36.25 min, 43.3% FG%, 7 rpg, 16.25 ppg).

In games where Marvin should be comfortable, he plays to the tune of the defense. Against good defenses, he rebounds less and shoots less.