If Marvin had a greater role on offense.

[Packfill]

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Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

I find this argument absolutely hilarious. Marvin battles injuries and has four different PG's, but he "just sucks," while "Deng had an off-year." Deng is one of the focal points of the offense, while Marvin is asked to expend significantly more energy on the defensive energy, yet Marvin "just sucks."

I'm not going to bother to go into much detail, but Deng actually improved statistically in several important areas this past season, including offensive rebounding, 3pt%, passing, and overall defensive contributions.

Objectivity has just about died away on Hawksquawk these days.

The reason why Exodus' argument holds true in this intance is that Deng was actually much better during his third season, and had a very impressive playoff run last year. Marvin has not yet had that type of results.

I also think that players are not "made" the focal point of an offense. Rather they attain that role through talent and determination. Guys on the team know who to give the ball.

[Joker]

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Deng was battling injuries all season so your comparisons don't hold much weight. Last season Deng was better than Marvin this year by a wide margin.

I find this argument absolutely hilarious. Marvin battles injuries and has four different PG's, but he "just sucks," while "Deng had an off-year." Deng is one of the focal points of the offense, while Marvin is asked to expend significantly more energy on the defensive energy, yet Marvin "just sucks."

I'm not going to bother to go into much detail, but Deng actually improved statistically in several important areas this past season, including offensive rebounding, 3pt%, passing, and overall defensive contributions.

Objectivity has just about died away on Hawksquawk these days.

The reason why Exodus' argument holds true in this intance is that Deng was actually much better during his third season, and had a very impressive playoff run last year. Marvin has not yet had that type of results.

I also think that players are not "made" the focal point of an offense. Rather they attain that role through talent and determination. Guys on the team know who to give the ball.

Man most of you guys are something else... You bring up the playoffs, that was the Bulls second or 3rd trip to the playoffs, so he had more experience. He was their #1 option, Marvin in the playoffs was the 4th option in a tie with Horford. New PG didn't know Marvin game either didn't help.... Marvin isn't good enough to be #1 over JJ and Josh Smith had the future tag on him from the organization since the dunk contest years back. Marvin improved a lot as well this season. In the regular season I felt that he wasn't as good as J Smith but near him. As for Deng, Williams had a much better season then him, point blank. Marvin showed this season why he was drafted that high, did he show why he was drafted ahead of Deron and CP3, no.

[exodus]

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As for Deng, Williams had a much better season then him, point blank.

How is that? Deng averaged 2 more ppg and shot a better percentage even though he was hurt. He missed 19 games due to injury.

I am hoping that Marvin eventually can average 17 ppg shooting 48% but he isnt there yet. He can't finish inside as well as Deng so he is really going to have to start shooting and making 3s.

[Cwell]

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Marvin showed this season why he was drafted that high,

lol great joke

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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The problem is that there are 82 games and Marvin can't rely on other people to consistently get him good looks. He isn't that good at creating his own shot.

I didn't know what to expect when I first started looking this up. So when I saw his shooting percentages virtually remained unchanged when he took 14+ shots, I just had to laugh. Like Horford, Marvin is consistent as hell in what he does.

And you're trying to tell me that they couldn't run Marvin off of more screens to get him open looks? That Woody couldn't exploit possble mismatches more when Marvin has an advantage?

He may not be good at creating his own shot, or finishing in the lane if he doesn't dunk, but he has a knack for drawing fouls when he's around the rim, much like Smoove and Chill does. He made more FTs than any other person on this team this year, making over 80%. And he's the 2nd best shooter on the team, despite being a "clumsy klutz".

The question in all of this, is if Woody is willing to make Smith less of the offensive focus, in order to elevate Marvin's role? That's the real issue here.

I truly believe that Smith could still get his points, if he'd just commit to playing closer to the rim and leave those long jumpers alone. His offensive rebounds would increase and thus his possible put backs and possible trips to the FT line.

No one wants the kid shooting jumpers, so why not have the people who can make outside shots, take the outside shots? If they miss, you have a superior athlete in Smith who can go get the offensive board . . if he puts his mind to it, much like Chill does.

Marvin not being able to get off 1000 shots last year should never happen, unless we have multiple guys who are better offensive weapons. Marvin deserves blame for that. Unfortunately, so does our coach for not creating more opportunities for him in the halfcourt set.

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The big gap between him and Deng is finishing inside. Marvin scored 2.3 ppg inside on shots that weren't dunks or tips, shooting 46.7% on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL10A.HTM

By contrast Deng scored 5.2 ppg on those shots this season, shooting 55.6%. Last year he scored 5.1 shooting 58%.

Marvin is clumsy and can't take contact so he struggles to finish inside.

Inside scoring is inside scoring. It's not Marvin's fault that Deng doesn't dunk the ball more when around the rim. Deng is the better far better finisher at close range that aren't dunks and tips. Marvin is better at getting dunks and drawing fouls going to the hole, no matter how clumsy he looks at times.

And this year, Marvin finished on the inside 58% of the time, a great improvement from last year. And he drew almost 60 more fouls compared to last year, drawing fouls on 15% of his shots.

mrH's whole argument was that if this team made an effort to make Marvin be a bigger part of the offense, would people think differently about him?

The answer to this question is obviously NO . . because people would find something else to try to downgrade the kid with. Hawks fans want "Marvin the Superstar", not "Marvin the Consitent Player"

By the way, these are Marvin's numbers when he averages 10 or less shots a game. He had 34 games in which that happened last year. In those 34 games, he averaged 8 shots from the field.

30.9 minutes

11.9 points

4.7 rebs

1.6 asst

0.9 stls

0.3 blks

1.2 tos

47.4% FG

83.1% FT

So I go the other way, and his points and rebounds decrease from his season averages at about the same rate as they increased when he took 14+ shots a game. But his shooting from both the field and the line remains about the same.

Not spectacular by any means. He's just consistent as hell.

[Diesel]

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The problem is that there are 82 games and Marvin can't rely on other people to consistently get him good looks. He isn't that good at creating his own shot.

I didn't know what to expect when I first started looking this up. So when I saw his shooting percentages virtually remained unchanged when he took 14+ shots, I just had to laugh. Like Horford, Marvin is consistent as hell in what he does.

And you're trying to tell me that they couldn't run Marvin off of more screens to get him open looks? That Woody couldn't exploit possble mismatches more when Marvin has an advantage?

He may not be good at creating his own shot, or finishing in the lane if he doesn't dunk, but he has a knack for drawing fouls when he's around the rim, much like Smoove and Chill does. He made more FTs than any other person on this team this year, making over 80%. And he's the 2nd best shooter on the team, despite being a "clumsy klutz".

The question in all of this, is if Woody is willing to make Smith less of the offensive focus, in order to elevate Marvin's role? That's the real issue here.

I truly believe that Smith could still get his points, if he'd just commit to playing closer to the rim and leave those long jumpers alone. His offensive rebounds would increase and thus his possible put backs and possible trips to the FT line.

No one wants the kid shooting jumpers, so why not have the people who can make outside shots, take the outside shots? If they miss, you have a superior athlete in Smith who can go get the offensive board . . if he puts his mind to it, much like Chill does.

Marvin not being able to get off 1000 shots last year should never happen, unless we have multiple guys who are better offensive weapons. Marvin deserves blame for that. Unfortunately, so does our coach for not creating more opportunities for him in the halfcourt set.

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The big gap between him and Deng is finishing inside. Marvin scored 2.3 ppg inside on shots that weren't dunks or tips, shooting 46.7% on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL10A.HTM

By contrast Deng scored 5.2 ppg on those shots this season, shooting 55.6%. Last year he scored 5.1 shooting 58%.

Marvin is clumsy and can't take contact so he struggles to finish inside.

Inside scoring is inside scoring. It's not Marvin's fault that Deng doesn't dunk the ball more when around the rim. Deng is the better far better finisher at close range that aren't dunks and tips. Marvin is better at getting dunks and drawing fouls going to the hole, no matter how clumsy he looks at times.

And this year, Marvin finished on the inside 58% of the time, a great improvement from last year. And he drew almost 60 more fouls compared to last year, drawing fouls on 15% of his shots.

mrH's whole argument was that if this team made an effort to make Marvin be a bigger part of the offense, would people think differently about him?

The answer to this question is obviously NO . . because people would find something else to try to downgrade the kid with. Hawks fans want "Marvin the Superstar", not "Marvin the Consitent Player"

By the way, these are Marvin's numbers when he averages 10 or less shots a game. He had 34 games in which that happened last year. In those 34 games, he averaged 8 shots from the field.

30.9 minutes

11.9 points

4.7 rebs

1.6 asst

0.9 stls

0.3 blks

1.2 tos

47.4% FG

83.1% FT

So I go the other way, and his points and rebounds decrease from his season averages at about the same rate as they increased when he took 14+ shots a game. But his shooting from both the field and the line remains about the same.

Not spectacular by any means. He's just consistent as hell.

The thing you need to understand is that Marvin is a 4th option. He's always shooting unguarded. If you make him a second option, he's probably not going to score much. He can't create for himself... and if his average against teams like Chicago and Boston is any indication of what happens to him under pressure, you don't want him being your 2nd option.

[exodus]

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mrH's whole argument was that if this team made an effort to make Marvin be a bigger part of the offense, would people think differently about him?

The problem is that when you compare him with Deng, an obviously superior player, you lose credibility.

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Inside scoring is inside scoring. It's not Marvin's fault that Deng doesn't dunk the ball more when around the rim

Deng scores 6.7 ppg inside compared to 4.2 for Marvin. There is only a .4 ppg difference in the amount of dunks they get. There is a 2.9 ppg difference in the inside points that aren't dunks.

Please try to do a better job with your spin doctoring.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Teams that Marvin averaged more than 14 shots a game....

Charlotte ( 40.8 min, 17.5 pts)

Denver (34.5 min, 19.5 pts)

Phoenix (37 min, 19 pts)

Portland

(Close)

( 37.5 min, 14 pts)

Seattle (41.5 min, 25.5 pts)

Toronto

(Close)

(34.7 min, 17 pts)

So this is Marvin. It's not impressive because out of 30 teams, he only shot more than 14 times a game 4 times. It was against teams who plays little defense or a quick pace. We can't play Seattle every game.

How about teams we see often?

Chicago (33.3 min, 28.2% FG%, 6.75 rpg, 10.25 ppg)

Detroit (34.3 min, 50% FG%, 5.25 rpg, 14.0 ppg)

Miami (37.5 min, 40% FG%, 7.25 rpg, 14.5 ppg)

New Jersey (30 min, 56% FG%, 5 rpg, 17.5 ppg).

New York (36.25 min, 55% FG%, 6.25 rpg, 17 ppg).

Orlando (30 min, 44% FG%, 4.5 rpg, 10.75 ppg)

Philly (36.25 min, 51% FG, 4.5 rpg, 15.5 ppg)

Washington (36.25 min, 43.3% FG%, 7 rpg, 16.25 ppg).

In games where Marvin should be comfortable, he plays to the tune of the defense. Against good defenses, he rebounds less and shoots less.

Ummm Diesel, that's actually a trend of the team, not just Marvin. Do a profile of those exact same teams, focusing on JJ, Chill and Smith, and see what you find.

[TheDude]

i'm sorry honline, but marvin has not shown the ability to create his own shots like deng which is extremely important in this league if you want to be considered a star...

i've mentioned this before but i think the think that concerns me is the lack of those games where he just shows out and for one night is the player he can become...he had one good game in seattle against a home crowd and that's about it...

our only hope that marvin develops the way we had HOPED he could is if he grows into his body and isnt as clumsy, therefore being able to create his own shot, and learns some post up moves and hits 3s...that's a lot to hope for...

[Diesel]

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Ummm Diesel, that's actually a trend of the team, not just Marvin. Do a profile of those exact same teams, focusing on JJ, Chill and Smith, and see what you find.

Well, Let's see...

Chillz averages:

7.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 57% FG%.

Against Chi: 13.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 54% FG%

Against Mia: 7.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 50% FG%.

Against Phi: 14.75 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 65% FG%

Smoove's Averages:

17.2 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 45.7% FG%

Against Chi: 12.3 ppg, 7.25 rpg, 33% FG%

Against Mia: 15.3 ppg, 7.75 rpg, 42% FG%

Against Phi: 17.8 ppg, 7.75 rpg, 48% FG%

Marvin's Averages:

14.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 46.2% FG%

Against Chi: 10.3 ppg, 6.75 rpg, 28.2% FG%

Against Mia: 14.5 ppg, 7.25 rpg, 40% FG%

Against Phi: 15.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 51% FG%

Three teams. WHat you say is true for Smoove. But not so much for Chillz.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Deng scores 6.7 ppg inside compared to 4.2 for Marvin. There is only a .4 ppg difference in the amount of dunks they get.

There is a 2.9 ppg difference in the inside points that aren't dunks.

Please try to do a better job with your spin doctoring.

Once again mrH's point was that Marvin didn't get the FGAs per game that Deng did. So would he be more appreciated if he did, because his numbers would be better. Marvin would either have more points from his jumper, more on the inside, and maybe an extra FT more, if he got more attempts.

Marvin doesn't finish as well as Deng, but he gets to the line more, enabling him to still get his points.

Deng is better than Marvin, but it isn't the wide gap that many believe.

[Admin]

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He can't create for himself... and if his average against teams like Chicago and Boston is any indication of what happens to him under pressure, you don't want him being your 2nd option.

and yet the Pacers were ALWAYS running screens for him to come off of so that he could pull up for a jumper and if we did that for Marvin he would score a lot more points. I bet you that Marvin would put up 20 ppg playing for a team like the Lakers or Jazz where they moved without the ball and set screens for each other.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL. Once again, you don't follow through all the way. Go through EVERY TEAM that you listed for Marvin in that original post, and see how Smoove, Chill, AND JJ did against those teams this year. Donmt just pick the 3 that favors Chill.

And this isn't about Chill, because I'm not a Chill basher. The majority of this fan base is mad or disappointed in Marvin, because he's content to play his role on the team, instead of forcing the issue and trying to be a star. Being consistently solid obviously isn't good enough for the base.

So mrH's point is. . . should we make Marvin a bigger part of the offense, and if people would appreciate him more if he became that?

Marvin being the 4th option is kind of the point. Maybe he shouldn't be the 4th option. Maybe this team needs to force feed the ball to him, much like we do Smith, in order for him to be the 2nd option. Because it's obvious that fans aren't content with him being just a solid player.

Unless Marvin becomes an energizer bunny like Chill, and start grabbing offesive rebounds by the boatloads, he's going to need touches in the halfcourt, so that he can affect the game with his scoring.

[Diesel]

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He can't create for himself... and if his average against teams like Chicago and Boston is any indication of what happens to him under pressure, you don't want him being your 2nd option.

and yet the Pacers were ALWAYS running screens for him to come off of so that he could pull up for a jumper and if we did that for Marvin he would score a lot more points. I bet you that Marvin would put up 20 ppg playing for a team like the Lakers or Jazz where they moved without the ball and set screens for each other.

So now, you're comparing Marvin to Reggie Miller???

Your protection of Marvin has gone too far.

Reggie Miller is one of the best three point shooters in the history of the game.

Marvin shot 10 three point shots last season.

Reggie Miller was a cold hearted KILLER on the court.

Marvin is a rugrat fan.

Would Marvin even play to a level where he would think about doing this on the opponents home floor??

Please stop!!

[Diesel]

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Marvin being the 4th option is kind of the point. Maybe he shouldn't be the 4th option. Maybe this team needs to force feed the ball to him, much like we do Smith, in order for him to be the 2nd option. Because it's obvious that fans aren't content with him being just a solid player.

If you make Marvin a 2nd option, he will see 2nd option defenses.

Nothing about Marvin's game now tells me that he's a guy capable of scoring over people.

[Admin]

I'm not comparing them as 3pt shooters and you know that. I have seen Marvin show big time emotion like Reggie did, but you would never give him credit for that.

The point is that Reggie wasn't the type of player that could get his own shot just like Marvin can't but that didn't stop the Pacers from getting him open looks off of multiple screens. Marvin gets so much elevation on his shot that he would be unguardable coming off of screens when he pulled up for a jumper.

[Admin]

They both commented toward the end of the season about Marvins jump hook that he would take about once a game and how effective it was as a weapon and that they wished he would use it more often. I'm not sure what his percentage is on that shot but I can't recall him missing with it more than once or twice.

[exodus]

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Deng scores 6.7 ppg inside compared to 4.2 for Marvin. There is only a .4 ppg difference in the amount of dunks they get.

There is a 2.9 ppg difference in the inside points that aren't dunks.

Please try to do a better job with your spin doctoring.

Once again mrH's point was that Marvin didn't get the FGAs per game that Deng did. So would he be more appreciated if he did, because his numbers would be better. Marvin would either have more points from his jumper, more on the inside, and maybe an extra FT more, if he got more attempts.

Marvin doesn't finish as well as Deng, but he gets to the line more, enabling him to still get his points.

Deng is better than Marvin, but it isn't the wide gap that many believe.

Do you even realize what you are saying? You are talking about getting to the line more but foul shots don't count as attempts. You and mrh are wondering what Marvin would do with more attempts and giving him credit for getting to the line at the same time. Hello Mcfly.

A lot of those foul shots that Marvin draws in part because he is clumsy and cant take contact would be counted as shot attempts if Deng was in the same situation.

The gap between Deng and Marvin is bigger than this years numbers indicate. Deng didn't miss 19 games in a contract year just because he felt like taking some time off.

Last year Deng averaged 19 ppg shooting 52%. That is a long way from 15 ppg shooting 46%.

[exodus]

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They both commented toward the end of the season about Marvins jump hook that he would take about once a game and how effective it was as a weapon and that they wished he would use it more often. I'm not sure what his percentage is on that shot but I can't recall him missing with it more than once or twice.

He looks pretty comfortable with that shot and towards the end of the season defenders started overplaying his right and forcing him left to protect against the jump hook. Marvin started shooting a few fadeaways as a counter to that but i would like to see him try to use his quickness to spin around guys sometimes.

[Admin]

That shot that he put up against Pierce is another type of shot that I hope he focuses on this year in addition to the hook in the lane. Once defenders start worrying about that he will have the ability to spin on them and get by.

I still think a lot of Marvin's problems with being clumsy come from him growing into his body. He is only 21 and I believe that up until becoming a Hawk he was a PF so a perimeter game is fairly new to him.