If Marvin had a greater role on offense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Do you even realize what you are saying? You are talking about getting to the line more but foul shots don't count as attempts. You and mrh are wondering what Marvin would do with more attempts and giving him credit for getting to the line at the same time. Hello Mcfly.

LOL. This is really rocket science to you huh? Marvin could get fouled while making a shot, or he could get fouled going to the hole, even if the shot attempt doesn't officially count. In both cases, he'll have additional opportunities to score from the line, if he gets more touches and shots up. That can't be that hard to understand.

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A lot of those foul shots that Marvin draws in part because he is clumsy and cant take contact would be counted as shot attempts if Deng was in the same situation.

It's always some backhanded excuse of why or how Marvin does his thing. That's why I find myself defending the guy more than ever. The fact that he can draw a foul 15% of the time can't be discounted, no matter how clumsy he looks going to the hole. Fact is, he's forcing people to foul him, and he's getting to the line.

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The gap between Deng and Marvin is bigger than this years numbers indicate. Deng didn't miss 19 games in a contract year just because he felt like taking some time off.

Last year Deng averaged 19 ppg shooting 52%. That is a long way from 15 ppg shooting 46%.

Marvin sure didn't get much sympathy from the fan base for missing 18 or so games last year. Even you admitted this year, that Marvin was hurting in February. That guy easily shoots 48% on the year and maybe averages close to or over 16 ppg, if he didn't have that horrible February.

So if Deng gets the benefit of the doubt for missing 19 games . . and you readily admit that Marvin was hurting in February . . then Marvin deserves the benefit of the doubt as well.

[Joker]

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Deng scores 6.7 ppg inside compared to 4.2 for Marvin. There is only a .4 ppg difference in the amount of dunks they get.

There is a 2.9 ppg difference in the inside points that aren't dunks.

Please try to do a better job with your spin doctoring.

Once again mrH's point was that Marvin didn't get the FGAs per game that Deng did. So would he be more appreciated if he did, because his numbers would be better. Marvin would either have more points from his jumper, more on the inside, and maybe an extra FT more, if he got more attempts.

Marvin doesn't finish as well as Deng, but he gets to the line more, enabling him to still get his points.

Deng is better than Marvin, but it isn't the wide gap that many believe.

Do you even realize what you are saying? You are talking about getting to the line more but foul shots don't count as attempts. You and mrh are wondering what Marvin would do with more attempts and giving him credit for getting to the line at the same time. Hello Mcfly.

A lot of those foul shots that Marvin draws in part because he is clumsy and cant take contact would be counted as shot attempts if Deng was in the same situation.

Acually your post show that you are JUST relating to the playoff games v. Boston which had two of Marvin biggest weakeness. A GREAT SF and great team defense. Not too many players can't slash on the Boston and Bron even had trouble with that. I really think your just a Marvin hater, and not a real Atlanta Hawks fan.

[Admin]

What's funny is that you guys are arguing with one of Marvin's biggest supporters.

Another thing that I would like to point out is how well Marvin defended Pierce, holding him 1.5 points below his season average while he got his season average against Cleveland and is above that by 3 points after the 1st game against the Pistons.

[AtLaS]

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Marvin is consistent as hell in what he does.

You mean like the whole month of February when he shot 35% from the field?

From January to the end of the season, Marvin averaged 13 ppg on 44% shooting. That's his final 53 games. And that's NOT including the playoffs in which he was much worse. If that's consistent, it's certainly not contributing to us winning. Marvin's averages stemmed from his good play in November and December, but he fell off bigtime, including the playoffs.

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Unfortunately, so does our coach for not creating more opportunities for him in the halfcourt set.

If Marvin was a good enough offensive player, it would show in practice and it would lead to getting more looks. He is just not a goto offensive player at this point in his career, if you don't see that then you haven't watched the games. Forcing him to take more shots will further hurt his percentages. I want him to succeed but I realize his limitations.

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By the way, these are Marvin's numbers when he averages 10 or less shots a game. He had 34 games in which that happened last year. In those 34 games, he averaged 8 shots from the field.

30.9 minutes

11.9 points

4.7 rebs

1.6 asst

0.9 stls

0.3 blks

1.2 tos

47.4% FG

83.1% FT

So I go the other way, and his points and rebounds decrease from his season averages at about the same rate as they increased when he took 14+ shots a game. But his shooting from both the field and the line remains about the same.

Not spectacular by any means. He's just consistent as hell.

It's Marvin's fault if he doesn't get more than 8 shots a game, he has no one to blame but himself. He just flat out disappears at times, and he NEVER comes up clutch. He'll start off well in the 1st quarter making you think he's going to have a big night, and only shoot 3 more times for the rest of the game. That's his fault.

[Joker]

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What's funny is that you guys are arguing with one of Marvin's biggest supporters.

Another thing that I would like to point out is how well Marvin defended Pierce, holding him 1.5 points below his season average while he got his season average against Cleveland and is above that by 3 points after the 1st game against the Pistons.

I like Marvin but he could traded tomm I would care less(unless it's for lesser value), but I hate when people overreacted to players, positively(J. Smith) or negatively(Marvin).

I really hated Marvin and was about to leave the hawks as a diehard supporter when we drafted him and his rookie season. I wanted Deron then CP3. I never wanted Marvin for ATL, but he here and what else can I do, plus he has game, unlike Shelden.

[AtLaS]

But remember, according to you, we HAD to take Marvin because ESPN made us do it! We didn't have a choice!

[Joker]

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But remember, according to you, we HAD to take Marvin because ESPN made us do it! We didn't have a choice!

I don't feel ESPN would have made us do it. It was that the backlash would mean BK is fired and BK wasn't willing to lose his job. Simple as that. Its a reason/solution method.

[AtLaS]

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I don't feel ESPN would have made us do it. It was that the backlash would mean BK is fired and BK wasn't willing to lose his job. Simple as that. Its a reason/solution method.

LOL, tell the spirit I said what's up next time you speak to them since you obviously know them.

[exodus]

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Acually your post show that you are JUST relating to the playoff games v. Boston which had two of Marvin biggest weakeness. A GREAT SF and great team defense. Not too many players can't slash on the Boston and Bron even had trouble with that. I really think your just a Marvin hater, and not a real Atlanta Hawks fan.

YOu are just clueless.

First of all i have probably defended Marvin as much as anyone on this site. Secondly you say i am just talking about the playoffs when i didn't even mention the playoffs. What i did mention is that Deng averaged 19/7 shooting 52% during his 3rd year.

[Joker]

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Acually your post show that you are JUST relating to the playoff games v. Boston which had two of Marvin biggest weakeness. A GREAT SF and great team defense. Not too many players can't slash on the Boston and Bron even had trouble with that. I really think your just a Marvin hater, and not a real Atlanta Hawks fan.

YOu are just clueless.

First of all i have probably defended Marvin as much as anyone on this site. Secondly you say i am just talking about the playoffs when i didn't even mention the playoffs. What i did mention is that Deng averaged 19/7 shooting 52% during his 3rd year.

Bash 40 night, this is fun. For one I though you were Atlas, I didn't read the name becuase every anti-Marvin post was from diesel and Atlas in this thread. My bad, hang me why don't cha.

[exodus]

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LOL. This is really rocket science to you huh? Marvin could get fouled while making a shot, or he could get fouled going to the hole, even if the shot attempt doesn't officially count. In both cases, he'll have additional opportunities to score from the line, if he gets more touches and shots up. That can't be that hard to understand.

What shouldn't be hard to understand is that some of the disparity between the shot attempts of Deng and Marvin is due to Marvin going to the line more often. It isn't hard to understand.

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It's always some backhanded excuse of why or how Marvin does his thing. That's why I find myself defending the guy more than ever. The fact that he can draw a foul 15% of the time can't be discounted, no matter how clumsy he looks going to the hole. Fact is, he's forcing people to foul him, and he's getting to the line.

I don't need excuses when comparing him to Deng. Deng is just flat out better.

Sure marvin draws a lot of fouls because of his clumsiness but when he doesn't get a foul he winds up throwing up an off balance shot that consistently misses.

Some players exaggerate contact (flopping) trying to draw fouls. Marvin does that naturally because he can't take contact. Sure it helps him get to the line but it is hard to give him a lot of credit for being weak.

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Marvin sure didn't get much sympathy from the fan base for missing 18 or so games last year.

He got plenty from me.

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Even you admitted this year, that Marvin was hurting in February. That guy easily shoots 48% on the year and maybe averages close to or over 16 ppg, if he didn't have that horrible February.

Taking out Feb Marvin averaged 15.4 shooting 48%. That is a long way from 19 shooting 52%.

I have said for the last two years that my hope is that Marvin becomes as good as Deng but he is not close right now. His inability to finish inside tells me that he really needs to become a legit threat from 3 to be a better than average starting sf.

[Zone034life]

I have noticed a trend reading all these posts about Marvin. The people who defend Marvin almost always use stats. The people who are not satisfied with his game use what they have seen on the court. It comes down to what you believe in more. What you see watching the game or what the boxscore says after the game.

To me it is easy to see watching games that Marvin is an option early in games because he is open alot on the wing. His stats at the end of the game depend heavily on him hitting his open looks. He had a game at the Knicks where he hit open jumper after open jumper. Thats because they couldn't defend JJ and he was wide open. Now you put a defender in front of Marvin every possesion that is a whole new ball game that Marvin hasn't faced in his career night in and night out.

Now your handles come in to question. Your dribbling ability, balance, agility and sheer will to beat the man in front of you. Marvin hasn't shown he has that in his game. What is his go to move? He isn't very quick. If he has a crossover I haven't seen it. He is much better at drawing fouls than he is at finishing around the rim. Sometimes I ask myself during games why did they foul Marvin? No one still has answered the question of Marvin beating man to man defense.

You want to know what a skilled young three who can do it all on the court looks like go watch Al Thortan. He is better than Marvin right now. I would have traded Marvin for him before last years draft. When you watched him play the Hawks in L.A he beat every player the Hawks threw at him off the dribble including JJ. He even was running down the court saying he was better than the Hawks players. That guy has the game and swagger to be very good in this league.

Marvin's game suggest he be no more than a role player.

[shug94]

Marvin has not played like a number 2 pick (or at least not like how you would HOPE a number 2 pick would play).

That said, he was much improved last year. He gained a comfort level on offense, found a go to move that worked for him(even if it was just a pull up jumper) and grew into his body a little bit.

He is 21 and I think he can be even better next year. He may never be a star, but I would not be shocked if he was second on the team in scoring as soon as next season.

[Diesel]

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Sometimes I ask myself during games why did they foul Marvin? No one still has answered the question of Marvin beating man to man defense.

I have two theories on this.

1. When you see 6'9" 238 stumbling uncontrollably your way, it's hard not to move. SInce his rookie Year, Marvin has just plowed over guys. It would be a good weapon except this year, Refs stopped giving Marv the defensive call as much as they used to. Even the refs notice Clumsy when they see it.

2. His handle is so weak that players are drawn to try to get a swat in at the ball. I was watching a few games come down the stretch and vet guys telling younger players not to swat at the ball. It's like why big bass strike at a hurt fish. For basketball players, it's instinct to go for the steal when they see a guy stumbling. Sometimes it results in a reach in.

[Hawk88]

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Sometimes I ask myself during games why did they foul Marvin? No one still has answered the question of Marvin beating man to man defense.

I have two theories on this.

1. When you see 6'9" 238 stumbling uncontrollably your way, it's hard not to move. SInce his rookie Year, Marvin has just plowed over guys. It would be a good weapon except this year, Refs stopped giving Marv the defensive call as much as they used to. Even the refs notice Clumsy when they see it.

You can add a modification to your first theory. When you see the kid stumbling along and about to fall on his face you can't help but reach out to try and help him. And as soon as Marvin feels contact he goes into a convulsive epileptic looking spasm that results in a foul call. I am embarressed for Marvin just about every time he drives to the basket.

Hawk88

[DrReality]

this is like palm reading but Marvin does not seem to have the maturity of some of the other younger guys. Seems soft and uncertain. That being said . . . . I don't think Woody is a coach that helps to instill confidence in the way he presents himself on the sideline. And I think the riff between Woody and BK was like parents fighting and I wonder if that has undermined his development, along with the whole craziness in the franchise.

[Joker]

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this is like palm reading but Marvin does not seem to have the maturity of some of the other younger guys. Seems soft and uncertain. That being said . . . . I don't think Woody is a coach that helps to instill confidence in the way he presents himself on the sideline. And I think the riff between Woody and BK was like parents fighting and I wonder if that has undermined his development, along with the whole craziness in the franchise.

Great post... Hey Dr., on another note, you have seen my posts before right. From reading your post you have great grammar, what is my biggest problem with my grammar?

Thanks in advance...

[exodus]

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this is like palm reading but Marvin does not seem to have the maturity of some of the other younger guys. Seems soft and uncertain. That being said . . . . I don't think Woody is a coach that helps to instill confidence in the way he presents himself on the sideline. And I think the riff between Woody and BK was like parents fighting and I wonder if that has undermined his development, along with the whole craziness in the franchise.

Great post... Hey Dr., on another note, you have seen my posts before right. From reading your post you have great grammar, what is my biggest problem with my grammar?

Thanks in advance...

Why don't you ask your sister in the 9th grade who is looking to attend Duke or Harvard?

Since you are the president of several organizations and a successful businessman i would think you have the wherewithal to figure out your own English mistakes.

[Joker]

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this is like palm reading but Marvin does not seem to have the maturity of some of the other younger guys. Seems soft and uncertain. That being said . . . . I don't think Woody is a coach that helps to instill confidence in the way he presents himself on the sideline. And I think the riff between Woody and BK was like parents fighting and I wonder if that has undermined his development, along with the whole craziness in the franchise.

Great post... Hey Dr., on another note, you have seen my posts before right. From reading your post you have great grammar, what is my biggest problem with my grammar?

Thanks in advance...

Why don't you ask your sister in the 9th grade who is looking to attend Duke or Harvard?

Since you are the president of several organizations and a successful businessman i would think you have the wherewithal to figure out your own English mistakes.

I do not have a problem speaking nor do I send out important emails without having two eyes check my grammar. As for my sister why would she proofread my posts on a message board. All I asked for you to do is tell me why my grammar is hard to understand jacka** in fact do yourself a favor: go to a gun store, buy yourself a 12 gauge. Now go to your backyard, if you have one(not even probable from your postings)... Now put the gun to your head and hopefully you know the rest which is unlikely from your postings as well.

[exodus]

Sure thing, Mr President.

FYI most people that come from highly educated families have more than just a rudimentary grasp of English, unless of course English is their second language. I really have to question your "brightness".