Kobe's comment summarizes our problems.

[AtLaS]

After the game, Sager asks Kobe "How did you decide to not pass out of the double at the end there?" Kobe says that all he had to do was back up and get to the middle and the Spurs were hesitant to double him out there because they have shooters that will knock down the open shots. What a gift to JJ that would be if we can get him some shooters.

EDIT: I know I keep repeating this, but it really is vital to our success.

[mrhonline]

Sasha Vujacic is RFA...

[AtLaS]

Well I'm not really big on Sasha, I'd really rather just have a starting SF that can knock down the 3, that would be the easiest solution. We don't really need a backup 3pt shooter (we have those), we need someone who will be on the floor for most of the game.

If Marvin develops 3pt range than I would love to keep him, otherwise I'd like to get someone like Miller, Posey, Redd etc..

[Jammin29]

i thought this after the first boston win we had. we killed them from behind the arc

id like to see us make a move for Jason K this offseason, i doubt it would happen with cap and all that but he would be nice, he is fast to. suit our offence

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The ironic thing is that the Lakers didn't win the game off of the strength of their shooting. They won by playing defense, rebounding, and drivng to the hole.

Meanwhile, the Spurs "shooters" shot a ton of 3s and missed them in that 2nd half, let the Lakers back in the game because they didn't drive and get to he FT line.

I understand what you're saying though. But if you defend, rebound, and can get to the line, you'll win the vast majority of the time.

[AtLaS]

The "threat" of shooting is just as important. The key point here is taking pressure off of JJ as well as increasing our shooting, and opening up the lanes and spreading the defense. This makes it much easier for Smith and Horford (and Acie) to drive inside.

Quote:

---

They won by playing defense, rebounding, and drivng to the hole.

Is it easier to drive to the hole when the defense is packing the lane because you don't have shooters, or when the defense is out on the perimeter guarding players on the 3pt line?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

The "threat" of shooting is just as important. The key point here is taking pressure off of JJ as well as increasing our shooting, and opening up the lanes and spreading the defense. This makes it much easier for Smith and Horford (and Acie) to drive inside.

The Spurs had too much confidence in Bowen, even when Kobe started killing him. If anything, they should've doubled Kobe, and make those "shooters" beat them instead. Lakers only took 10 threes.

With us though, JJ just happens to be our most potent 3 point threat. The solution to this is to take him off the ball, and let Acie run the show. Bibby is fine against non-defensive PGs, but Rondo exposed him big time.

Quote:

---

Is it easier to drive to the hole when the defense is packing the lane because you don't have shooters, or when the defense is out on the perimeter guarding players on the 3pt line?

It's easier to drive if one guy is on you, regardless of how the defense is playing. but if they're packing the lane, then yes, it's harder to drive against that.

Another way to attack this, is that when JJ passes out of the double team, the person receiving the ball attack the basket. Acie, in the few minutes he played in Game 6, did just that. Bibby did it to a certain extent as well. Quick ball movement solves this as well, as was the case in Game 3.

JJ himself passing out of the double team a lot quicker, would make things easier for the Hawks as well.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

The Spurs had too much confidence in Bowen, even when Kobe started killing him. If anything, they should've doubled Kobe, and make those "shooters" beat them instead.

The majority of the time those shooters will beat you. I mean, leaving a good 3pt shooter wide open, or letting a great player go 1 on 1 is about the same essentially. Neither one is optimal.

Quote:

---

The solution to this is to take him off the ball, and let Acie run the show.

Although I agree that Acie definitely needs a chance, NOONE has proven that they are a good enough playmaker that we can take JJ off the ball. When Acie does that (I'm hoping he gets that chance next year), then we'll start talking about that.

Quote:

---

Another way to attack this, is that when JJ passes out of the double team, the person receiving the ball attack the basket.

So what happens when the player drives and the D collapses on him? Who does he kick it out to? Does he have to somehow find JJ wide open every time?

Regardless, when teams pack the lane (as many do against us), moving the ball around the perimeter does not usually open up a drive to the hole. In certain cases it will, but the majority of the time the opening is on the perimeter because they DON'T respect our shooters. If that player can knock down the 3 pointer, than the defense will have to respect that, thus if/when he swings the ball again the lane will be much more open. If they don't close out on him than he takes the shot. Having shooters would just make offense so much easier, there really is no way to dispute that IMO. There is a reason that every team left has at LEAST 2 3pt shooters on the floor at all times.

[Vol4ever]

Jeremy Richardson has good size and can shoot the ball and he is on our roster. I would like to see if he could produce and he did in limited minutes. He should be JJ's backup. It looks as though we may have to consider trading one of our SF's for a vet post.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Another way to attack this, is that when JJ passes out of the double team, the person receiving the ball attack the basket.

So what happens when the player drives and the D collapses on him? Who does he kick it out to? Does he have to somehow find JJ wide open every time?

Regardless, when teams pack the lane (as many do against us), moving the ball around the perimeter does not usually open up a drive to the hole. In certain cases it will, but the majority of the time the opening is on the perimeter because they DON'T respect our shooters. If that player can knock down the 3 pointer, than the defense will have to respect that, thus if/when he swings the ball again the lane will be much more open. If they don't close out on him than he takes the shot. Having shooters would just make offense so much easier, there really is no way to dispute that IMO. There is a reason that every team left has at LEAST 2 3pt shooters on the floor at all times.

I agree with the basic point that perimeter shooting opens space on the floor for other players but I don't see why we can't also take advantage of perimeter double teams on JJ by attacking the basket.

.........................

...............................

..............x..(MW).......

..................o................''''''''''o

..............................l......)''''''''''x (JJ)

BASKET.....x(JS).o...l.x....)'''''''o

..............................l......)

..................o................

..............x..(MB).......

...............................

.........................

In this set passing to the player at the free throw line should give big opportunities if that player attacks the basket. Assume the player at the line is Horford. Assume the guy under the basket is Josh Smith and the wings are Bibby and Marvin.

After JJ passes to Horford, Horford can attack the basket and shoot over the defender or possibly back the guy down depending on where the defense flows. Horford can attack and pass it to Josh Smith under or near the basket if the defender in the paint leaves Josh alone and no one slides over to pick him up. The players on the wings can get open jumpers or can also drive the ball for short shots if the defender in the paint picks up Horford and one of the wing defenders slides to cover Josh Smith.

All this depends on actually practicing an offense and executing quickly once the double-team comes, though.

[exodus]

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

With Smith it is the same story. Teams will pack it in daring him to shoot. The only way to really spead the defense out is with shooters. That makes attacking the basket much easier which is why i like the Andersen signing (assuming he does get signed).

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

With Smith it is the same story. Teams will pack it in daring him to shoot. The only way to really spead the defense out is with shooters. That makes attacking the basket much easier which is why i like the Andersen signing (assuming he does get signed).

I don't understand what you are saying. I am assuming that no one will respect Horford or Josh Smith's jump shot.

As the play develops, Horford receives the pass at the FT line and is in a 4 on 3 situation. If the defender in the paint doesn't check him, he drives to the hole or shoots a very short shot.

If the defender does come off the guy under the basket to defend him either immediately or immediately once he starts driving, then Horford doesn't drive and Horford has one of two options depending on the defense.

If the wing defenders stick with Marvin and Bibby, Horford passes the ball to Smith under the basket or alley-oops to Smith whose guys has just left him alone to check Horford.

If one of the wing defenders slides over to Josh Smith, then Horford passes to the open Marvin/Bibby who are cutting to the basket as their man leaves them going to the hole or who take an open jumper.

Doesn't this take Al Horford and Josh Smith's perimeter shooting totally out of the equation?

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

With Smith it is the same story. Teams will pack it in daring him to shoot. The only way to really spead the defense out is with shooters. That makes attacking the basket much easier which is why i like the Andersen signing (assuming he does get signed).

I don't understand what you are saying. I am assuming that no one will respect Horford or Josh Smith's jump shot.

As the play develops, Horford receives the pass at the FT line and is in a 4 on 3 situation. If the defender in the paint doesn't check him, he drives to the hole or shoots a very short shot.

If the defender does come off the guy under the basket to defend him either immediately or immediately once he starts driving, then Horford doesn't drive and Horford has one of two options depending on the defense.

If the wing defenders stick with Marvin and Bibby, Horford passes the ball to Smith under the basket or alley-oops to Smith whose guys has just left him alone to check Horford.

If one of the wing defenders slides over to Josh Smith, then Horford passes to the open Marvin/Bibby who are cutting to the basket as their man leaves them going to the hole or who take an open jumper.

Doesn't this take Al Horford and Josh Smith's perimeter shooting totally out of the equation?

It's not that easy. NBA players are unbelieveably athletic and as soon as the pass moves, the defense is there. The bottom line is that with tons of defensive players in the lane combined our inability to shoot, we will never be a successful half court team. It's not that simple because players are already closing out as the pass is made. Not to mention that all of our players aren't the great playmakers that you are giving them credit for. Those decisions are no where near as easy as it would seem.

There is a reason that all of the top teams have shooters on the floor all the time..

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

With Smith it is the same story. Teams will pack it in daring him to shoot. The only way to really spead the defense out is with shooters. That makes attacking the basket much easier which is why i like the Andersen signing (assuming he does get signed).

I don't understand what you are saying. I am assuming that no one will respect Horford or Josh Smith's jump shot.

As the play develops, Horford receives the pass at the FT line and is in a 4 on 3 situation. If the defender in the paint doesn't check him, he drives to the hole or shoots a very short shot.

If the defender does come off the guy under the basket to defend him either immediately or immediately once he starts driving, then Horford doesn't drive and Horford has one of two options depending on the defense.

If the wing defenders stick with Marvin and Bibby, Horford passes the ball to Smith under the basket or alley-oops to Smith whose guys has just left him alone to check Horford.

If one of the wing defenders slides over to Josh Smith, then Horford passes to the open Marvin/Bibby who are cutting to the basket as their man leaves them going to the hole or who take an open jumper.

Doesn't this take Al Horford and Josh Smith's perimeter shooting totally out of the equation?

No. The problem is that the player is the one who ultimately decides what to do and his decisions probably won't correspond with yours very often.

Horford rarely drove from up top. You would pretty much have to cattle prod him to get him to do it on a consistent basis.

At the same time you would also have to use that cattle prod liberally to stop Smith from shooting those open jumpers.

Players don't always follow the script.

[Joker]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Horford has to be willing to attack the basket more than once in a blue moon for that to work. Given that guys play several feet off him when he gets the ball at the top of the key i think that set would just lead to a jumper or to him standing there holding the ball waiting for someone to pass to.

The only times i can really recall Horford taking a guy off the dribble successfully was when he was on the baseline. I guess he feels more comfortable there because it is tougher for help to come.

Guys are going to play off Smith and Horford because they want them to shoot jumpers. at least Horford can make some of them but attacking the basket is a lot easier when the floor is spaced out properly.

You could simply switch Horford and Smith in this set if you wanted but Horford shouldn't have to beat anyone off the dribble. On most plays, he should simply drive toward the basket and pass the ball to the open player when someone picks him up (either passing to JS or to the wing player if the wing defender slides to JS). It does require quick execution to prevent the double team on JJ from recovering, though.

With Smith it is the same story. Teams will pack it in daring him to shoot. The only way to really spead the defense out is with shooters. That makes attacking the basket much easier which is why i like the Andersen signing (assuming he does get signed).

I don't understand what you are saying. I am assuming that no one will respect Horford or Josh Smith's jump shot.

As the play develops, Horford receives the pass at the FT line and is in a 4 on 3 situation. If the defender in the paint doesn't check him, he drives to the hole or shoots a very short shot.

If the defender does come off the guy under the basket to defend him either immediately or immediately once he starts driving, then Horford doesn't drive and Horford has one of two options depending on the defense.

If the wing defenders stick with Marvin and Bibby, Horford passes the ball to Smith under the basket or alley-oops to Smith whose guys has just left him alone to check Horford.

If one of the wing defenders slides over to Josh Smith, then Horford passes to the open Marvin/Bibby who are cutting to the basket as their man leaves them going to the hole or who take an open jumper.

Doesn't this take Al Horford and Josh Smith's perimeter shooting totally out of the equation?

It's not that easy. NBA players are unbelieveably athletic and as soon as the pass moves, the defense is there. The bottom line is that with tons of defensive players in the lane combined our inability to shoot, we will never be a successful half court team. It's not that simple because players are already closing out as the pass is made. Not to mention that all of our players aren't the great playmakers that you are giving them credit for. Those decisions are no where near as easy as it would seem.

There is a reason that all of the top teams have shooters on the floor all the time..

Wow, I loved this post from you, I almost didn't know who wrote this. Good post. I agree we do need shooters, but Bibby and JJ is that, but no one else starting is a great shooter, Marvin has potenial but it will take a while. I will say two to three years. Marvin doesn't do something unless he's confortable he can do it.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

I agree we do need shooters, but Bibby and JJ is that

I'm talking about our future. Bibby isn't our PG of the future, Law is. Law isn't a shooter (as of now) so we have to address this situation unless Marvin magically becomes a 3pt shooter.

[dig]

I would agree that we need shooters.... essentially someone to do what Marvin does (stand around & wait for the pass, nail the shot) except with more range & consistency. Even if we add that dead-eye shooter, we won't dominate offensively until we have either a solid, table-setting PG who can penetrate and get others involved, or a low-post scorer to play inside-out with JJ (& Bibby/Marvin). JJ has terrific vision for a SG, but he's not a natural point who will consistently create for others, and if he did that his role as our primary shooter/scorer would be diminished. Hopefully Acie can be that guy...

Also, this thread was brought up in reference to Kobe, but it's simply not fair to compare JJ to Kobe. Kobe essentially sat back in the first half, spread the ball around and observed the Spurs D... then in the second half he applied his intelligence and imposed his will on San Antonio. Even if we had shooters, it's impossible to expect JJ (or really any other player) to have that level of intelligence and understanding of what's going on around him. Kobe has no equal in this game right now, so we should focus on building a team (PG, Center, bench) rather than trying to emulate the Lakers....

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

I would agree that we need shooters.... essentially someone to do what Marvin does (stand around & wait for the pass, nail the shot) except with more range & consistency. Even if we add that dead-eye shooter, we won't dominate offensively until we have either a solid, table-setting PG who can penetrate and get others involved, or a low-post scorer to play inside-out with JJ (& Bibby/Marvin). JJ has terrific vision for a SG, but he's not a natural point who will consistently create for others, and if he did that his role as our primary shooter/scorer would be diminished. Hopefully Acie can be that guy...

Also, this thread was brought up in reference to Kobe, but it's simply not fair to compare JJ to Kobe. Kobe essentially sat back in the first half, spread the ball around and observed the Spurs D... then in the second half he applied his intelligence and imposed his will on San Antonio. Even if we had shooters, it's impossible to expect JJ (or really any other player) to have that level of intelligence and understanding of what's going on around him. Kobe has no equal in this game right now, so we should focus on building a team (PG, Center, bench) rather than trying to emulate the Lakers....

You just completely didn't grasp my point at all.

It has absolutely nothing to do with JJ being as good as Kobe. It has to do with the fact that they backed off the double on Kobe because he has shooters around him and you can't leave them wide open. If we had shooters the same thing would happen for JJ.

About "emulating the Lakers", when did I say that? I said that we need shooters to improve our half court offense and make teams pay for doubling JJ. Look at the final 4 teams, they all have at LEAST 2 3pt shooters on the floor at all times.