NBA Fixing Games--WOW

[Vol4ever]

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How do you get to be a "snitch" or a "rat" as organized crime says? Not by being a hard working farmer is Southern Georgia or in Nebraska....nope...you gotta be on the inside to know. Amazing to me....the "rat" brought down the Gambino crime family. Scott McClellan is fixing to show all Americans how much we were lied to by our own President. You NEED rats. The people who hate RATS are the people who are robbing you.

C'mon Stern....spill.

Well it seems that ol Scott's story is not working too well lately, hehehehe!!!

In the 70s as a teenager I could have sworn the NBA was fixed in favor of those stinkin Celtics. I will not watch this NBA finals because I can't stand either organization!

[AHF]

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I am not sure where you go with the FBI, though. It isn't like they charged the Felon with providing false evidence or perjury either - unlike someone like Barry Bonds.

As far as i know you can't get charged with perjury for lying to the press. I didn't follow the case that closely but i seriously doubt he made those allegations under oath.

If the FBI felt there was credible evidence of wrongdoing from other refs they certainly would investigate it just like they did with him.

He made these statements to the FBI and can be charged if the FBI has reason to believe he lied to them. They are similar to statements made in court for purposes of subjecting to person to criminal liability if the FBI believes they are false. He is subject to criminal liability for making these statements -- if they are shown to be false and that he knew they were false (just as with testimony under oath).

[exodus]

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I am not sure where you go with the FBI, though. It isn't like they charged the Felon with providing false evidence or perjury either - unlike someone like Barry Bonds.

As far as i know you can't get charged with perjury for lying to the press. I didn't follow the case that closely but i seriously doubt he made those allegations under oath.

If the FBI felt there was credible evidence of wrongdoing from other refs they certainly would investigate it just like they did with him.

He made these statements to the FBI and can be charged if the FBI has reason to believe he lied to them. They are similar to statements made in court for purposes of subjecting to person to criminal liability if the FBI believes they are false. He is subject to criminal liability for making these statements -- if they are shown to be false and that he knew they were false (just as with testimony under oath).

Do you have the exact statements he gave to the FBI?

For example when he alleged other refs were also involved in gambling it could have been nothing more serious than going to casinos.

if he said anything of substance i would assume it would naturally follow that the FBI would investigate it.

[sturt]

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that the nba should be more transparent. I think he's right that when teams complain and refs get directives, the complaints and directives should be made available to all teams involved if not all teams.

Seems every time Stern gets a little more transparent, he opens his operations up to even greater criticism... not sure that that's the way to go.

What's not to like about an NFL or an MLB kind of set-up?

Or, what's not to like about what Phil Jackson suggests?

This just doesn't have to be that difficult, IFFFFFFFF one is serious about setting aside the skepticism AND SIMULTANEOUSLY doesn't have a marketing-principled agenda keeping one from being hands-off.

Again, I feel a whole lot better about officiating over the last couple of seasons, so I'm not really suggesting that there's the same degree of a problem as there was prior to that. But, let's face it... this current administration has been far too involved with the day-to-day work of officiating in games. You don't find this in baseball. You don't find this in football. It's just not acceptable, and yes... transparency is a good ideal that all of us on the outside of the issue can coalesce around.

[AHF]

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I am not sure where you go with the FBI, though. It isn't like they charged the Felon with providing false evidence or perjury either - unlike someone like Barry Bonds.

As far as i know you can't get charged with perjury for lying to the press. I didn't follow the case that closely but i seriously doubt he made those allegations under oath.

If the FBI felt there was credible evidence of wrongdoing from other refs they certainly would investigate it just like they did with him.

He made these statements to the FBI and can be charged if the FBI has reason to believe he lied to them. They are similar to statements made in court for purposes of subjecting to person to criminal liability if the FBI believes they are false. He is subject to criminal liability for making these statements -- if they are shown to be false and that he knew they were false (just as with testimony under oath).

Do you have the exact statements he gave to the FBI?

The FBI doesn't consult me on these things and if they did I wouldn't publish them on this or any other public forum. Donoughy's lawyer did file a public letter summarizing his statements to the FBI, as you know, however. If that wasn't truthful, both Donoughy and his lawyer would be sanctioned by the Court and it would only increase Donoughy's sentence.

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For example when he alleged other refs were also involved in gambling it could have been nothing more serious than going to casinos.

if he said anything of substance i would assume it would naturally follow that the FBI would investigate it.

He clearly alleged much more than going to casinos. What his attorney filed with the Court should be taken as largely true - not the underlying allegations necessarily but true as far as what he has represented to the FBI. It is more than a statement to the media, it is a statement to the Judge about to sentence his client and base that in part on how cooperative he has been with the FBI.

I agree that the FBI would investigate allegations of game fixing -- if it makes their radar. Professional wrestling has publically claimed to be above board for years without any FBI investigations. The FBI and other agencies don't seem entirely consistent in when they investigate and prosecute and when they don't. I am still waiting, for example, for Clemens to be charged.

[exodus]

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Donoughy's lawyer did file a public letter summarizing his statements to the FBI, as you know, however. If that wasn't truthful, both Donoughy and his lawyer would be sanctioned by the Court and it would only increase Donoughy's sentence.

The public letter is what recently came out and the 2002 game was the highlight. The perception that that game was fixed would certainly make it hard for the FBI to say he is definitely lying. I didn't read the letter but if there were any allegations in it about fixing in recent years i think it would be a big story.

Instead he just points to controversial games from 6 years ago. it would hardly take an insider to make credible accusations about that 2002 game.

My point is that what he has actually said publicly and what he has said to the FBI privately aren't necesarily the same thing. Before his trial he made a lot of allegations and i haven't seen much follow up on them.

[Lascar78]

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What's not to like about an NFL or an MLB kind of set-up?

Which is? I don't see how the nfl is any more transparent with the league-referee directives but I may not know.

I think it is largely perception and the nature of the sport. I can only IMAGINE how much we'd be hearing about the stern conspiracy if there was a spying / cheating scandal involving the top team and he had burned the tapes before anyone saw them. But if it's the nfl, we move on. If it's the nba, any hint is hard proof of the evil empire's conspiracy.

[AHF]

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Donoughy's lawyer did file a public letter summarizing his statements to the FBI, as you know, however. If that wasn't truthful, both Donoughy and his lawyer would be sanctioned by the Court and it would only increase Donoughy's sentence.

The public letter is what recently came out and the 2002 game was the highlight. The perception that that game was fixed would certainly make it hard for the FBI to say he is definitely lying. I didn't read the letter but if there were any allegations in it about fixing in recent years i think it would be a big story.

Instead he just points to controversial games from 6 years ago. it would hardly take an insider to make credible accusations about that 2002 game.

My point is that what he has actually said publicly and what he has said to the FBI privately aren't necesarily the same thing. Before his trial he made a lot of allegations and i haven't seen much follow up on them.

He also pointed to the 2005 NBA playoffs (again not by name but it has been ID'd as the Rockets/Dallas series) as one where the NBA manipulated the referees (and a 2000 incident).

The letter that was filed with the Court is pretty reliable for what he told the FBI, IMO. Again, his lawyer would be subject to sanctions if he misrepresented what had been told to the FBI and Donoughy would be in line for a harsher sentence. What is the incentive to be anything but honest with that? The letter could also be struck from the record if it didn't match pretty well with what was told to the FBI. That doesn't mean the allegations are true, but it means that it is pretty sure that they match what he told the FBI.

[exodus]

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The letter that was filed with the Court is pretty reliable for what he told the FBI, IMO.

That isn't what i am getting at.

My point is that letter doesn't seem to match up that well with the allegations that were coming out before his trial. He talked about referees gambling and fixing games and this is what he comes up with? "Company" refs favoring teams in games years ago?

That certainly isn't what we were led to believe before his trail.

[AHF]

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The letter that was filed with the Court is pretty reliable for what he told the FBI, IMO.

That isn't what i am getting at.

My point is that letter doesn't seem to match up that well with the allegations that were coming out before his trial. He talked about referees gambling and fixing games and this is what he comes up with? "Company" refs favoring teams in games years ago?

That certainly isn't what we were led to believe before his trail.

The gambling at casinos came from the NBA's internal investigation - not from Donoughy.

[exodus]

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The letter that was filed with the Court is pretty reliable for what he told the FBI, IMO.

That isn't what i am getting at.

My point is that letter doesn't seem to match up that well with the allegations that were coming out before his trial. He talked about referees gambling and fixing games and this is what he comes up with? "Company" refs favoring teams in games years ago?

That certainly isn't what we were led to believe before his trail.

The gambling at casinos came from the NBA's internal investigation - not from Donoughy.

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'Isolated to one individual'

Union unaware of other officials involved in gambling

Posted: Saturday August 18, 2007 1:51AM

NEW YORK (AP) -- The referees union maintained Friday that Tim Donaghy is known to be the only referee involved in gambling activities,

despite a report that said he was about to provide names of colleagues who also may have violated NBA rules.

The report on 1050 ESPN Radio in New York said Donaghy will provide prosecutors as many as 20 names of other NBA officials and will detail their involvement in some form of gambling, believed to include betting in casinos.

The offenses may not include criminal activity, according to the report, but could violate NBA policy and lead to firings that would decimate the officiating staff. Twenty referees would make up about a third of the league's roster...........

click

[AHF]

That article is from August and I could be mistaken on this but the later articles I see mention only the referees were feretted out as a result of the NBA's internal investigation with no mention of being outed by Donoughy.

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The NBA on Sunday denied a New York Daily News report that the league has disciplined six referees for violating anti-gambling rules for officials.

The league's

internal review of its entire officiating program in the wake of the Tim Donaghy scandal

-- which is being conducted by former federal prosecutor Lawrence Pedowitz -- is not complete yet, according to league spokesman Tim Frank.

"There is no truth to this report," Frank said. "The commissioner has made it clear that we will have details to share once the review is completed."

NBA commissioner David Stern acknowledged earlier this month at a news conference in London that the internal review has indeed unearthed league policy violations from referees besides Donaghy

. But the resultant penalties are not expected to be issued until the review is finished.

"There were some violations," Stern said. "But they are not hanging crimes."

Stern added in London that no firings will be necessitated by the findings of the review.

October 21, 2007

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3072928

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Stern said

an internal review had found

that all of the league's 56 referees violated the contractual prohibition against engaging in gambling, with more than half of them admitting to placing wagers in casinos. But Stern said none of the violations was major, and no referees had admitted to wagering in a sports book or with a bookie.

October 26, 2007

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3079309

[exodus]

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That article is from August and I could be mistaken on this but the later articles I see mention only the referees were feretted out as a result of the NBA's internal investigation with no mention of being outed by Donoughy.

But he claimed that he was going to out 20 of them for gambling which may have involved going to casinos. That was a huge story at the time. people thought other refs were involved with bookies and would get busted too.

Turns out his allegations didn't amount to a hill of beans.

[AHF]

More to the point, what Donoughy told the FBI is not public knowledge and wouldn't have been even now had the NBA not tried to get him a longer sentence by seeking 1M in restitution. It has been reported that Donoughy made these claims to the FBI last fall but they weren't public so you wouldn't expect to see them mentioned by the press and the press is where your expectations/information was coming from. The NBA would happily mention casino gambling as a distinguishable, non-offense but would not mention allegations that playoff games were fixed unless it had to because of the bad PR. Now Stern has no choice but to acknowledge and deal with the allegations.

It doesn't mean the allegations are true, but every indication is that Donoughy made these statements to the FBI last year.

Now that I think about it, even Stern admits they are nothing new and claims they have already been investigated by the FBI and are false so I don't see any reason to think these are new.

[Wurider05]

My main thing is the fact that the star system is so known that it is not even funny. A foul should be a foul whether its Kobe Bryant or Zaza Pachulia. Who is the NBA to say that one players desire to win is more important than another. It is messed up and the need to have stars instead of promoting the game is what is killing them. I haven't watched one game of the finals but I can bet that they are killing the Lakers vs. Celtics 80's rivalry.

[exodus]

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what Donoughy told the FBI is not public knowledge and wouldn't have been even now had the NBA not tried to get him a longer sentence by seeking 1M in restitution.

So what happened to the list of 20 refs that he was going to expose? sure looks to me like no other refs have been exposed about anything other than going to casinos.

All that came out in that letter is that "i knew a guy who knew the guys who were reffing a game 6 years ago and..." ... lame.

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Donoughy made these claims to the FBI last fall but they weren't public so you wouldn't expect to see them mentioned by the press and the press is where your expectations/information was coming from.

And it seems the claims he made to the press were a little more dramatic than the claims he made to the FBI. That is my point. What he said to the press is one thing but what he said to the FBI was something else.

[AHF]

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what Donoughy told the FBI is not public knowledge and wouldn't have been even now had the NBA not tried to get him a longer sentence by seeking 1M in restitution.

So what happened to the list of 20 refs that he was going to expose? sure looks to me like no other refs have been exposed about anything other than going to casinos.

All that came out in that letter is that "i knew a guy who knew the guys who were reffing a game 6 years ago and..." ... lame.

The three incidents he mentioned were 2000, 2002 and 2005 so the latest one is 3 years old, not 6.

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Donoughy made these claims to the FBI last fall but they weren't public so you wouldn't expect to see them mentioned by the press and the press is where your expectations/information was coming from.

And it seems the claims he made to the press were a little more dramatic than the claims he made to the FBI. That is my point. What he said to the press is one thing but what he said to the FBI was something else.

These latest revelations weren't actually made to the press. They were made to the judge as a matter of public record and picked up by the press. That is certainly deliberate but you are a LOT more accountable to what you represent to a Judge who is about to sentence you - especially considering the Judge can have the FBI corroborate (or not) those claims in a heartbeat. The information about Donoughy that you quoted in 2007 came wasn't attributed to Donoughy or his attorney so I am not sure why that is considered a claim Donoughy made to the press.

* * *

Isn't the bottomline that Stern admits these are old news? If Donoughy had just alleged casino gambling until now, Stern would not be saying these were already raised and discredited last year.

[exodus]

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The information about Donoughy that you quoted in 2007 came from the NBA so I am not sure why that is considered a claim Donoughy made to the press.

It was reported on ESPN radio. Somehow i doubt that the NBA released a statement saying that Donoughy was going to name 20 other refs involved in gambling.

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That is certainly deliberate but you are a LOT more accountable to what you represent to a Judge who is about to sentence you

Which is exactly my point. Instead of naming a bunch of refs currently involved in gambling he mentions "company" refs possibly trying to influence games years ago.

[exodus]

Before his trial the buzz was that this guy was going to sing and bring down a bunch of other refs with him. Turns out the other refs have been proven guilty of nothing other than going to casinos.

As far as the "company ref" allegations he has nothing other than he knows a guy who knows a guy who knew something. There is no evidence there that i can see.

Before the trial fans were waiting for the other shoe to drop and expose the "crooked" referees. That shoe still hasn't dropped to the obviously enormous disappointment of the conspiracy theorists.

[AHF]

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The information about Donoughy that you quoted in 2007 came from the NBA so I am not sure why that is considered a claim Donoughy made to the press.

It was reported on ESPN radio. Somehow i doubt that the NBA released a statement saying that Donoughy was going to name 20 other refs involved in gambling.

Who did then? Someone with the FBI? Donoughy? A clerk with the court? We just don't know. I don't know that you can attribute this to Donoughy.

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That is certainly deliberate but you are a LOT more accountable to what you represent to a Judge who is about to sentence you

Which is exactly my point. Instead of naming a bunch of refs currently involved in gambling he mentions "company" refs possibly trying to influence games years ago.

If he is telling the truth and the NBA did this only years ago, it is still very damaging.