Bibby & Sund

[GTfan44]

What do you all think Sund will do with Bibby? Sund was with Seattle for years, as Bibby was nearby in Sacramento, so Sund is obviously familiar with bibby. Anyone think he may try trade him with Marvin for another scorer?

[Diesel]

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What do you all think Sund will do with Bibby? Sund was with Seattle for years, as Bibby was nearby in Sacramento, so Sund is obviously familiar with bibby. Anyone think he may try trade him with Marvin for another scorer?

I think we over estimate Bibby's effect on the team. For one, I think Bibby doesn't run the offense that much better than the combo of Lue/Aj. He's just more consistent. Secondly, I know that Bibby puts up more threes than those other guys. However, just like Lue, Bibby is not a guy who can run the offense. I think in the playoffs, Woody found his niche with Bibby... and that was as an OG who can put up the three. While that could be successful, I would really like to see us develop Law...

So my hope is that during the first part of the season, we're using Bibby, with the understanding that he may be traded by the deadline.

I think what really can effect how we view what to do with Bibby is the health of Speedy. I don't know if Speedy has it in him to make a comeback. However, if he could, I think that the combo of Bibby/Speedy is one that we should try to keep around for a while.

[JackB1]

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I think Bibby doesn't run the offense that much better than the combo of Lue/Aj. He's just more consistent.

You need to think again. In watching Bibby's 1st game as a Hawk, you IMMEDIATELY saw a big difference in the way the offense was run. He looked for Al a lot more than Lue/AJ and he

was much more able to find open guys than AJ/Lue. You need to go back and watch some old games with Lue/AJ and see the difference. I am looking forward to seeing what a 100% Bibby can do.

[WraithSentinel]

Also Bibby effect on the team is very positive knowing they have someone with his experience out there. Let us not forget the impact he had on JJ. JJ went back to being the JJ of last year when he arrived. Sure Bibby struggle down the stretch. Give him a full offseason to get himself into better shape and he is also in a contract year. Bibby has enough motivation going for him to where the Hawks should benefit from.

[Peoriabird]

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Also Bibby effect on the team is very positive knowing they have someone with his experience out there. Let us not forget the impact he had on JJ. JJ went back to being the JJ of last year when he arrived. Sure Bibby struggle down the stretch. Give him a full offseason to get himself into better shape and he is also in a contract year. Bibby has enough motivation going for him to where the Hawks should benefit from.

Yeah but he makes $15 million next season. Can we afford to pay a non-allstar that much money?

[Cwell]

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I think Bibby doesn't run the offense that much better than the combo of Lue/Aj. He's just more consistent.

You need to think again. In watching Bibby's 1st game as a Hawk, you IMMEDIATELY saw a big difference in the way the offense was run. He looked for Al a lot more than Lue/AJ and he

was much more able to find open guys than AJ/Lue. You need to go back and watch some old games with Lue/AJ and see the difference. I am looking forward to seeing what a 100% Bibby can do. I just rewatched that Laker game the other day and I remember those passes and thought..................he didn't make not one pass like that for the rest of the season.He basically just shot open jumpers.

[coachx]

I just rewatched that Laker game the other day and I remember those passes and thought..................he didn't make not one pass like that for the rest of the season.He basically just shot open jumpers.

That is very funny.

Bibby sets up the offense and called plays a little quicker then AJ and much quicker then Lue. While Bibby is not very good at breaking down the defense off the dribble he was better then both Lue and AJ at setting up teamates off the dribble and even hit the occaisonal floater or layup that was extremly rare for AJ or Lue to get.

First let me say I'm a big Law fan but it would be extremely risky and borderline stupid to trade Bibby without Law asserting himself as a true starting NBA PG. If or when Law is our PG we need either a new SF who can hit a 3 and properly space the floor or Marvin has to extend his range, plain and simple, or the lane would be clogged all day with defenders with JJ as the lone outside threat.

If Bibby had another shooter to properly stretch the floor or a decent post option he would look much better. Whoever plays PG for us will be slightly handicapped until either Horford or Smith can scare the opposition into post double teams by their threat to score and/or until we get a SF to properly open up passing lanes ith proper spacing. (Of course we could get a SG to do this and move JJ down to SF which would also make a quicker team and more explosive on the break.)

We underestimate how much Marvin's limited range hurts the half court offense. Him being 3 steps inside the 3 point arch makes it possible for his man to play inside help post defense and take away passing lanes to the paint. A SF who can hit a 3 would not only open wider passing lanes but it would also allow both Smith and Horford a little more time and space to work in the paint.

A lineup of Bibby, Law, and JJ gives us 3 good passers while also stretching the floor with shooters and drivers. That line up will get torched defensively so it can be used in limited stretches vs. non-elite SGs.

If we can bring over David Anderson I would love to trade ZaZa (though he grew on me in the Boston series) with Marvin (2 expiring contracts that have value and upside at the same time) for a Richard Jefferson like veteran SF who can defend and stretch the floor while scoring in a variety of ways without being a high volume shooter. (Jefferson has played in 2 NBA Finals, remember, that kind of expierence could be invaulable to this young club.) I think that would round out the team quite nicely. Even if David Anderson stays in Europe Kwmae Brown may be affordable and slight defensive upgrade over ZaZa.......

Just some random thoughts I had to add.

[Peoriabird]

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We underestimate how much Marvin's limited range hurts the half court offense. Him being 3 steps inside the 3 point arch makes it possible for his man to play inside help post defense and take away passing lanes to the paint. A SF who can hit a 3 would not only open wider passing lanes but it would also allow both Smith and Horford a little more time and space to work in the paint.

Post like this is what makes this board so unattractive! Bibby assist numbers with Atlanta are no different than his assist numbers over the last 7 years but yet somehow Marvin has had an effect on Bibby's point guard skills. Secondly, Smith doesn't play in the post! Thirdly, Mike Woodson in his radio interview stated that We have to develop Al Horford post game meaning that he doesn't have one yet! So how does Marvin affect something that neither Smith or Horford possess? I like what woodson told the interviewer when he stated that he had been critical of the team in the past. He said then "stop being critical and try to be positive for a change!"

[ncthompson11]

What would it take for us to bring Brent Barry to ATL? Maybe the best 3 point shooter in the NBA and would be great for us off the bench and late in close games.

[coachx]

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We underestimate how much Marvin's limited range hurts the half court offense. Him being 3 steps inside the 3 point arch makes it possible for his man to play inside help post defense and take away passing lanes to the paint. A SF who can hit a 3 would not only open wider passing lanes but it would also allow both Smith and Horford a little more time and space to work in the paint.

Post like this is what makes this board so unattractive! Bibby assist numbers with Atlanta are no different than his assist numbers over the last 7 years but yet somehow Marvin has had an effect on Bibby's point guard skills. Secondly, Smith doesn't play in the post! Thirdly, Mike Woodson in his radio interview stated that We have to develop Al Horford post game meaning that he doesn't have one yet! So how does Marvin affect something that neither Smith or Horford possess? I like what woodson told the interviewer when he stated that he had been critical of the team in the past. He said then "stop being critical and try to be positive for a change!"

LOL. I'm one of the most positive guys on here. You should read the whole post so view it in context.

Post like yours show how little many posters know about the basics of basketball and contrue a few facts as being negative. The thread was actually about Bibby and started very negative about him. I was actually taking up for Bibby and being positive about him. If you were not so busy sucking on Marvin's jock you may have noticed.

1. Smith is a PF and YES he does play in the post. He post up on the left block several times EVERY game and if he wants to be a PF he has to improve here.

2. If you do not think Marvin's inability to properly stretch the floor hurts the half court offense you are showing how little you know.

3. Bibby played in a different system for 5 out of those 7 years. Somthing called the Princeton offense you obviously know nothing about. Miller and Webber were excellent passing bigs who racked up assist in that offense as Bibby and Peja ran off screens for perimeter shots. Bibby was anything but a traditional PG for that time. But of course you ccannot understand that anyway.

4. Horford bettering his post game wold make a PGs life easier and the hald court offense better

Why are your panties in a wad.

[bronnt]

Gosh, so many issues to address in this discussion.

Peoriabird-Just because Woodson says something doesn't make it true. Especially when you're inferring things that Woodson didn't say outright. Even things that he says are sometimes so blatantly wrong that citing him as a reference is extremely questionable.

Horford doesn't have a 100% effective post game yet. He doesn't have smooth offensive moves or a slick jumpshot. He can't spin and hit fade-aways. This doesn't mean he has no post game. You started to see him incorporated into the post scoring late in the season, and he's somewhat effective. Most of his work is based on his using his strength to establish position and then pounding it in off the glass. This isn't going to work all the time while he's playing out of position, but it's there. He also has good touch around the rim AND he makes good decisions on the post. He knows when he's got it, and when he doesn't, he makes crisp passes out of it. He doesn't dribble off his foot or carry the ball very often. He's got a developing hook shot. There's a few tools-he's not a big time post scorer right now, but anything less than about 13/10 next year will be a disappointment.

Josh Smith is actually very effective in the post. He needs to stay down there more. I've talked plenty of times about the various things he does well down low and I won't rehash them here. He does hurt the team by playing outside and taking jumpers. It needs to stop.

Coachx-Marvin is a problem on offense, but you're not really nailing down the issue and you're exaggerated his limited range. A lot of his jumpers are merely one step under the three point line. He just needs to add that one step to be a three point shooter. I remember in the previous season, when he took some more, it was almost like a mental block-he's still got solid form and smooth follow through, he just had not yet found the proper range on those. The range really isn'tthe problem though. There were stretches early last season when he was the second most important contributor on the offense, after Joe. When he's nailing those shots, he actually is doing something positive for us.

The problem with Marving is that he doesn't have anything else to contribute on offense. He's a bit clumsy driving the ball, and has a tendency to dribble off his foot when he's got his back to the basket. More importantly, he's only good at hitting open jumpers, but he's unable to create his own shot and consistently get open. It takes others to create his shot for him. And even then, he was inconsistent. There were stretches, as I said, when he was able to really score a lot for us just by hitting jumpers that were created for him, but others when he was hitting those under a 40% clip, which we can't have if he's not able to do anything else. He only actually hi 41.2% of his jumpshots last year, and if he's not going to do anything else, we need it to be closer to 44-45%.

It's not REALLY necessary that he be able to hit three pointers at a high rate. There are effective SFs in the league who aren't shooters-Tayshaun doesn't hit a lot of threes, Lebron is a pretty poor shooter overall, Grant Hill was NEVER a 3 point shooter, and there's a ton of combo forwards like Odom, Outlaw, and Jamario Moon who make good contributions without being shooters. But he needs to add SOMETHING to his offensive repertoire because he's so limited right now.

[coachx]

B/c Marvin can do none of the things you listed is why he must extend his range. Why bother in stating the obvious ? Sure SFs can be effective without shoting 3's if they excel at the other aspects of the game like Grant Hill or Lebron James. The problem is Marvin will never be the ball handler, passer, creator, or decision maker that those guys are. Prince can get away with not being a 3 point shooter b/c Sheed can hit the 3. Problem is Smoove can't hit 3 consistently so Marvin can't get away with it as easily as a guy like Prince. (Prince still shoots the corner 3 pretty well though unlike Marvin.)

Rather then lie to my self and say the real problem with Marvin is that he can't be a Lebron James or Grant Hill I tell the truth and say he either has to extend his range or hit the road for the current roster to work. That is Marvin limitation as a SF. He will never be an above average ball handlr at the SF position.

SFs grow on trees. He will not be hard to replace.

I'm just trying to objectivly look at this roster and this is the most glaring need that can be fixed since capable post scorers are much harder to come by then capable wings.

[bronnt]

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B/c Marvin can do none of the things you listed is why he must extend his range. Why bother in stating the obvious ? Sure SFs can be effective without shoting 3's if they excel at the other aspects of the game like Grant Hill or Lebron James. The problem is Marvin will never be the ball handler, passer, creator, or decision maker that those guys are. Prince can get away with not being a 3 point shooter b/c Sheed can hit the 3. Problem is Smoove can't hit 3 consistently so Marvin can't get away with it as easily as a guy like Prince. (Prince still shoots the corner 3 pretty well though unlike Marvin.)

Rather then lie to my self and say the real problem with Marvin is that he can't be a Lebron James or Grant Hill I tell the truth and say he either has to extend his range or hit the road for the current roster to work. That is Marvin limitation as a SF. He will never be an above average ball handlr at the SF position.

SFs grow on trees. He will not be hard to replace.

I'm just trying to objectivly look at this roster and this is the most glaring need that can be fixed since capable post scorers are much harder to come by then capable wings.

I never said that Marvin Williams had to become Lebron James or Grant Hill in order for us to have an effective offense-I was simply pointing out some exceptional talents who play the position and aren't shooters. There are plenty of other SFs who are no stars but they do enough things effectively that it doesn't matter if they can shoot or not-Stacey Augmon, for example.

There are other ways in which it's conceivable that Marvin could improve without increasing range. Merely making a higher percentage of the shots that he already specializes in would help a lot. And he needs to work on his ball handling, regardless if he develops a three point shot or not. I think he still has a chance to improve his handle to the point that he could have a penetration move, and use the hesitation or pull up to create open looks. I don't know if he WILL, but I certainly think the raw skills are there. It's a bit overcritical of you to say that Marvin will NEVER be able to handle the ball-he's the second youngest guy we have on the roster, and is only two weeks older than Horford.

I'm not defending Marvin, by any means-he is absolutely the weak link in our line-up, and the fact that he gets more minutes than Childress boggles me. But to say "make threes or you're worthless" is remarkably short-sighted. Childress, in fact, is a good example of a SF who is effective without being a shooter-he can handle the ball fairly well and does a good job putting the ball in when he gets it around the rim.

[Peoriabird]

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3. Bibby played in a different system for 5 out of those 7 years. Somthing called the Princeton offense you obviously know nothing about.

Versions of the Princeton offense have been run by the New Orleans Hornets, New Jersey Nets, Sacramento Kings, and Washington Wizards in the NBA. It was introduced by Rick Adelman to the Houston Rockets for the 2007-08 season

[Peoriabird]

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3. Bibby played in a different system for 5 out of those 7 years. Somthing called the Princeton offense you obviously know nothing about.

The Nets were coming off their first season under the direction of head coach Byron Scott. He and his assistant coaches, including Eddie Jordan and Mike O’Koren, are discussing ways to improve on a 26-56 season. It is August and training camp is just a round the corner and they are excited about the addition of All-Star point guard Jason Kidd.

Scott gave Jordan full permission to implement the offense with the Nets. It worked. The Nets finished 13th in scoring in the NBA (96.2) but had five starters average in double figures. They went all the way to the NBA Finals where they lost to the Lakers, but in one season they had gone from Eastern Conference doormat to NBA title contender.

[Peoriabird]

My point is that Kidd & Paul are high assist point guards regardless of the system and Bibby is a shoot first low assist point guard regardless of the system and the number support this fact!

[Cwell]

I'm not the one that said he didn't run the offense better than AJ.I just said he didn't make those passes anymore after that game.After Bibby settled in he was basically just a shooter on the perimeter,which gave Joe more open looks which is why his shooting went way up.I only remember Bibby hitting 2 or 3 floaters and one was in that first game he was here and another was in game 6 I think against Boston.

[Peoriabird]

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I'm not the one that said he didn't run the offense better than AJ.I just said he didn't make those passes anymore after that game.After Bibby settled in he was basically just a shooter on the perimeter,which gave Joe more open looks which is why his shooting went way up.I only remember Bibby hitting 2 or 3 floaters and one was in that first game he was here and another was in game 6 I think against Boston.

Ain't if funny how people just make up stuff and argue about it like they are experts. Bibby is what he is and it is not because of Marvin or anybody else on the team. He is and has been a shoot first point guard period and his number over the past 7 years support those facts!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

One of the major differences between Bibby and the AJ/Lue PG combo, is that our transition offense was entirely better with him running the show. Bibby's ability to push the ball, find the open man, or shoot the ball himself, was one of the key reasons why our offense was much more effective after he came here.

Bibby averaged 6.5 assists while he was here this season. That's good in today's NBA for a PG. Now, if we can get Law to average 8 ppg and 5 apg, we'll be good to go.

[Diesel]

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B/c Marvin can do none of the things you listed is why he must extend his range. Why bother in stating the obvious ? Sure SFs can be effective without shoting 3's if they excel at the other aspects of the game like Grant Hill or Lebron James. The problem is Marvin will never be the ball handler, passer, creator, or decision maker that those guys are. Prince can get away with not being a 3 point shooter b/c Sheed can hit the 3. Problem is Smoove can't hit 3 consistently so Marvin can't get away with it as easily as a guy like Prince. (Prince still shoots the corner 3 pretty well though unlike Marvin.)

Rather then lie to my self and say the real problem with Marvin is that he can't be a Lebron James or Grant Hill I tell the truth and say he either has to extend his range or hit the road for the current roster to work. That is Marvin limitation as a SF. He will never be an above average ball handlr at the SF position.

SFs grow on trees. He will not be hard to replace.

I'm just trying to objectivly look at this roster and this is the most glaring need that can be fixed since capable post scorers are much harder to come by then capable wings.

The truth is that Marvin doesn't really fit.

We're not a true half court team.

We don't have a post player we can dump it in to with the passing skills to find an open man.

Marvin is too uninvolved in the offense to be anything but a 3-4 option.

I would trade Marvin for Raja Bell in a heartbeat.

For the Hawks offense, we're going to need somebody who can help spread the floor because even though JJ is a good 3 pt shooter, with Bibby, he becomes a guy who holds the ball too long.

Like you, I also like Law. I hope that Law grows and he gets his shot together. But the fact that he drives and dishes and gets others involved will help us immensely.