Should the Hawks try what the Celtic did?

[frosgrim]

The flaw in your assessment is that the players you mentioned got regular playing time and weren't pgs dealing with a chronic wrist inury.

The dual problem of injury and being a PG on a team that is loaded with young players is not a great combination.

For example, Rondo's improvement can be attributed to him maturing, but don't forget he's playing with three very experienced players. Rondo playing with what the Cs gave up to get Allen and Garnett probably doesn't look nearly as good as he did with those vets.

Along the same lines, the Hawks need 3 pt shooting from the PG baring other trades. Therefore, until Acie shows he is a legit 3 pt threat he does not provide what the Hawks need today.

You might want to step back from your position and see that most people really like Acie, but they have legitimate questions about his development. There is a possibility that Acie does not improve or that wrist continues to be a significant problem (ala Claxton's knees). Those possibilities have to be covered until Acie demonstrates reliability.

[coachx]

Did Sund work for the Bucks at one time ? Is there a connection there ?

He obviously pulled the Ray Allen trade off with the Bucks by trading an aging and over paid PG in Gary Payton when the Bucks were looking for an expiring contract.

Sounds awful familiar with the Bibby / Redd situation.

Can he pull a Ray Allen like trade for a 2nd time with an aging and over paid PG with an expiring contract as the bait ?

I sure do hope so ! I would love the versitility that 3 ball handlers would give the team (Law, Redd, JJ). Marvin will never be a good ball handler and may never develop a 3 point shot making him a flawed and incomplete SF............he may forever be a tweener. Meanshile JJ is the perfect "point foward" to help bring the young Law along. Law with Redd and JJ to share ball handling responsobilities would make life easy. Right now all Law has is JJ (who is constantly double teamed) to share ball handling responsibilities with since Marvin can't dribble to save his life.

[Cwell]

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The flaw in your assessment is that the players you mentioned got regular playing time and weren't pgs dealing with a chronic wrist inury.

The dual problem of injury and being a PG on a team that is loaded with young players is not a great combination.

For example, Rondo's improvement can be attributed to him maturing, but don't forget he's playing with three very experienced players. Rondo playing with what the Cs gave up to get Allen and Garnett probably doesn't look nearly as good as he did with those vets.

Along the same lines, the Hawks need 3 pt shooting from the PG baring other trades. Therefore, until Acie shows he is a legit 3 pt threat he does not provide what the Hawks need today.

Rondo may be playing with 3 hall of famer type players but that doesn't take away from his ability to break down the defense and play pesky defens on the other end.

You might want to step back from your position and see that most people really like Acie, but they have legitimate questions about his development

. There is a possibility that Acie does not improve or that wrist continues to be a significant problem (ala Claxton's knees). Those possibilities have to be covered until Acie demonstrates reliability.

Um isn't that what I said before?"Most people disagree and with good reason" .and there's no chance in hell he doesn't improve.He isn't that type of player.Even Marvin improved and all he can do is hit a mid range jumper.and isn't it time for the young players crap to stop?The hell with their age.The Joshes are going into year 5,Marvin into year 4. Joe is a seasoned vet,Zaza has been in the leageu a few years. Horford and Law were battle tested coming in. All have playoff experience now.

[frosgrim]

Young players do matter when dealing with developing PGs. Rondo has guys in their 30s playing along side him. Law has no one over 30. That is a huge difference in terms of experience, which age serves as a proxy for. Plus, 30 year olds understand things differntly than young 20 somethings. Its about life experiences.

You still haven't dealt with the real issue of Acie's linguring wrist problems. Once a player shows a chronic condition, any organization had better be ready to over come that issue when if flaires up.

Again, you aren't taking a step back and being objective.

[coachx]

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Young players do matter when dealing with developing PGs. Rondo has guys in their 30s playing along side him. Law has no one over 30. That is a huge difference in terms of experience, which age serves as a proxy for. Plus, 30 year olds understand things differntly than young 20 somethings. Its about life experiences.

You still haven't dealt with the real issue of Acie's linguring wrist problems. Once a player shows a chronic condition, any organization had better be ready to over come that issue when if flaires up.

Again, you aren't taking a step back and being objective.

I agree with that.

I would hold on to Bibby until at least the all star break so that Law can have an oppurtunity to: (a.) prove he is starter quality over the long haul. (b.) prove his wrist is healed

If Law proves these 2 things then say good bye to Bibby IF the right deal comes around. (To me that is Richard Jefferson, Jason Richardson, Gerald Wallace, or Michael Redd).

[frosgrim]

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I would hold on to Bibby until at least the all star break so that Law can have an oppurtunity to: (a.) prove he is starter quality over the long haul. (b.) prove his wrist is healed

If Law proves these 2 things then say good bye to Bibby IF the right deal comes around. (To me that is Richard Jefferson, Jason Richardson, Gerald Wallace, or Michael Redd).

Yeah, that is probably the right plan, unless something comes up this summer that is too good to pass on, e.g., that Redd deal we keep talking about, or for me, gettting Billups.

I REALLY want Law to be a Billups-like player, and I think he can, but until I see that he is durable, I don't think you can count on him for a full 82.

[bronnt]

I think the important thing to note is that we are absolutely in no position to do what the Celtics did. The Celtics were able to include a high draft pick, and willing to take on large salaries while trading off rookie contracts. Our owners will not allow us to make any move that takes on two different max deals, while offloading minor contracts, and even with all the young talent we have, I don't know if the right players are on this team and available via trade for us to make that kind of move.

One thing that Rivers has to get credit for was developing Rondo. Having been a PG in the league himself, and a quite successful one, has give him some idea how to develop a young point. We haven't been able to develop a point guard here at all. Rondo is as important to the success of the Celtics as anyone and he was taken out of the bottom of the first round (a pick that was originally ours... ) and he REALLY showed up during the playoffs. They also got Leon Powe out of that same draft. We got Shelden Williams and Solomon Jones...argh.

We don't have that kind of bench talent or supporting talent. If you break down and send off Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams, and Josh Childress, (and maybe some future draft picks) we don't have any depth on this team. And we're not going to get enough with those four guys anyway-maybe some broken down superstars like Jermaine O'Niell. But there's only one KG.

[frosgrim]

Agreed, we can't do exactly what the Cs did, but the original idea of the thread was to say what if we did do something like what the Cs did. Just a little game to be played.

In terms of realistic offseason moves, I think it is entirely possible that there will be a major trade. In fact, I would be shocked if Sund didn't make a major move.

[Johnnybravo4]

This is why I think we should pick up Jermaine O'neal. He is the only player available that would give us a third bona fide star that could put us in the top 3 in the east. The "Build a good team from the bottom up" model has never worked. (ask the Bulls) In an era of free agency and salary caps you have to play for 3-5 year windows, not 10 year windows. Pretty much all of the championship teams of the salary cap era have been teams that made big trades or free agent deals to put them over the top.

Shaq and the Lakers

Shaq and the Heat

Sheed and the Pistons

KG and Ray with the Celtics

Clyde Drexler and the Rockets

The Spurs won because they lucked up and got the best power forward of all time to play with one of the best centers of all time. The Bulls won because of MJ. Homegrown teams for the most part don't win in the NBA, otherwise the Clippers would have 20 titles by now. Young players eventually become free agents and often leave the team that drafted them, or they become better players later in their career. This is why the Raptors don't have a title with VC and TMAC. We have assets that we can move. We need to move Marvin and Bibby and get O'neal here now!

[Guest]

You do realize the Rockets won before Clyde with essentially all homegrown talent? Well Mario Ellie was a FA, but basically they slowly built that team up.

You look way too much at the present when you are evaluating how to win, very nearsighted if you ask me.

[crimedog]

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You do realize the Rockets won before Clyde with essentially all homegrown talent? Well Mario Ellie was a FA, but basically they slowly built that team up.

You look way too much at the present when you are evaluating how to win, very nearsighted if you ask me.

Not to mention, our franchise player (Joe) was acquired via FA.

The Hawks certainly have the peices in the Joshes, Al, Bibby/Zaza's contracts and Marv to pull off some big trades but there isn't a KG-esque multiple time first-teamer, former MVP still in his prime, legit superstar out there on the market. Boston's dealing required a lot of balls but it also required a lot of luck.

Jermaine O'Neal isn't Ray Allen Calibre when he's healthy, which is half a season nowadays.

I think Hawkfanatic makes a good point, you can't just look at how a team that won a chip got there and assume that you have to take that route. If the trade market doesn't look that fertile, don't make the trade because you think you have to.

[Johnnybravo4]

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You do realize the Rockets won before Clyde with essentially all homegrown talent? Well Mario Ellie was a FA, but basically they slowly built that team up.

You look way too much at the present when you are evaluating how to win, very nearsighted if you ask me.

How is looking at the past 15 someodd years of champions nearsided? What are you an eagle?

Even if you look at teams on the cusp, like the Hornets, they didn't become a high seed because of merely having Chris Paul..they went and got Peja and Tyson Chandler. Standing pat or picking up cheap free agents is a recipe for failure. Ask the Bulls. If they get Kobe instead of hanging on to Luol freaking Deng, maybe they would be hoisting up the trophy instead of the Celtics.