Congratulations to the Hawks

[Admin]

If they had Bibby all year I would certainly agree with that, but they had a gimpy Bibby for half a season and not much to talk about at PG before that. They had Horford who really became a significantly better player toward the end of the year but was starting from nothing at the beginning of the season, Marvin had a month or so where his injury really affected him, the same for Joe, etc. Now if we win 37 games next year I will be pissed off because we should be starting from where we left off and building on that.

[exodus]

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has seen modest improvement each year

Modest improvement isn't hard when your starting point is 13 wins.

[jhay610]

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I don't think having a low tolerance for mediocrity makes you a hater. What people fail to realize is the four years of rebuilding is coupled with the other 5+ years of bad management from the Babcock regime. This city has dealt with 9 years of losing. So to call people haters for wanting a winning NBA team is uncalled for. We've dealt with years inept management, arrogance (Billy Knight), faulty coaching (Kruger, Stotts, Woodson) and crappy on court play (although last year was a step in the right direction).

Having said all of that, just because Sund comes in on his white horse and gives good spin doesn't mean we have to jump on board with bells on. After the other regimes gave us similar spin at certain points and a decade later, a 37 win season is our pinnacle? The average fan doesn't give a flip about what management has to say. They just want wins. So as an organization, they haven't produced. Being on the outside looking in has its advantages. You gain a different perspective. However, you don't see this team night in and night out. We've seen what the Hawks' players can do. However, any strides they've made has been negated by awful coaching and bad management.

A F'IN MEN Excuse me if I'm tired of losing. The bottom line is that this fan base has been lied to, bought into broken promises and generally been abused for the last decade. We still have a messy ownership situation and we are not sure if they are committed to doing what is necessary to put a winning product on the floor.

Excuse us if we are skeptical of the company line. We have been burned before and we are starved for a winner. You saw a glimpse in the 2008 playoffs of what life as a Hawks fan could be if they put a winner on the floor.

[Admin]

It's not easy to continue winning more games every year. Granted it's much easier starting at 13 but until the point comes where we stop winning more games than the previous season I will continue to be proud of our improvement.

[exodus]

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If they had Bibby all year I would certainly agree with that, but they had a gimpy Bibby for half a season and not much to talk about at PG before that. They had Horford who really became a significantly better player toward the end of the year but was starting from nothing at the beginning of the season, Marvin had a month or so where his injury really affected him, the same for Joe, etc. Now if we win 37 games next year I will be pissed off because we should be starting from where we left off and building on that.

They didn't take Boston to 7 games because of Bibby. They did it in spite of him. It was the other guys (who were here all season) that pushed Boston to 7 games.

Going from 13 wins to 37 in 4 years isn't hard at all. Going from 37 to 50 is hard.

[khaos7]

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I don't think having a low tolerance for mediocrity makes you a hater. What people fail to realize is the four years of rebuilding is coupled with the other 5+ years of bad management from the Babcock regime. This city has dealt with 9 years of losing. So to call people haters for wanting a winning NBA team is uncalled for. We've dealt with years inept management, arrogance (Billy Knight), faulty coaching (Kruger, Stotts, Woodson) and crappy on court play (although last year was a step in the right direction).

Having said all of that, just because Sund comes in on his white horse and gives good spin doesn't mean we have to jump on board with bells on. After the other regimes gave us similar spin at certain points and a decade later, a 37 win season is our pinnacle? The average fan doesn't give a flip about what management has to say. They just want wins. So as an organization, they haven't produced. Being on the outside looking in has its advantages. You gain a different perspective. However, you don't see this team night in and night out. We've seen what the Hawks' players can do. However, any strides they've made has been negated by awful coaching and bad management.

A F'IN MEN Excuse me if I'm tired of losing. The bottom line is that this fan base has been lied to, bought into broken promises and generally been abused for the last decade. We still have a messy ownership situation and we are not sure if they are committed to doing what is necessary to put a winning product on the floor.

Excuse us if we are skeptical of the company line. We have been burned before and we are starved for a winner. You saw a glimpse in the 2008 playoffs of what life as a Hawks fan could be if they put a winner on the floor.

I think that is the ultimate argument. Whether our perspective is off from the rest of the country or the league for that matter, a decade of losing wears on you. We want more, regardless of how league insiders view the team. I can't speak for the masses, but I don't want to hear any more GM talk from management. Whether Sund is giving the company line or not, I could care less. Just win. Yes, I know he has nothing to do with Babcock's decisions. Just win. Sure, he may have picked Paul over Marvin, unlike Billy. Just win. This is the situation you signed up for. Sund has inherited all of the baggage that comes with being an Atlanta Hawks employee. He has to be sensitive to the fact.

This team has spent too much time trying to be fiscally responsible, battling in courtrooms in Maryland, and making bad decisions. Through it all, we all still supported them. I could care less about what outsiders think. No I've never played an NBA game. No, I've never coached a game. No I've never been in an NBA front office. However, I'm intelligent enough to know our various front office incarnations have bungled things. Our coaches have been deplorable at best. We haven't seen our teams put out consistant performances. I've heard people from other cities look at this roster and say it should have done more, although the pieces didn't fit. After 9 years, I feel as a fan who has paid my hard earned money for the product and watched countless hours of Hawks basketball, I think I'm entitled to say, enough spin and GM talk... JUST WIN.

[TheTrueSiete]

What's funny is that I don't believe we have been graced with Northcyde's opinion yet...

7

[frosgrim]

Good post Khaos.

[Dsinner]

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I'm not saying that anyone is a hater for wanting the team to succeed or because of being tired of the losing but to not be able to separate our decade of failure that includes the Babcock era and the current era which is only 4 years and has seen modest improvement each year and still whine and complain like we are so awful is what gets on my nerves.

I wasn't an advocate of Sund getting the job but I love what he has had to say and I still believe that he talks about this team from the viewpoint of being an outsider. I don't believe he is giving "company man" speeches and what not just to satiate the fans. I think that he (and others around the league as he alluded to) honestly believe that we should be right about where we are at with the roster we have. Sure we'd probably be a lot better if we had made better draft decisions, but ignoring that and simply looking at the roster and the coaching I honestly believe we are close to where we should be at this point. I believe that this is the breakout year where we get above .500 by 3-5 games and if we hit that I will be happy and most here say they will be happy but the truth is that the "haters" will not be happy with it when the time comes, even though they say they will at this point in time. That is what drives me nuts.

Sorry so late on this thread but how the hell do you believe we were a 37 win team last year and yet a 47 win team this year WITH THE EXACT SAME TEAM AND COACH? How is that logic even possible?

It's amazing how some of you take so much solice in that playoff series yet still don't think we were better than 37 wins. I mean, how can you look at the Boston series and think "you know what, we're going to be ok" but then say we weren't supposed to win 38 games. You're not using any kind of reasonable logic. Either we are that good or we're not. You can't have it both ways.

[ATLBob]

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Sorry so late on this thread but how the hell do you believe we were a 37 win team last year and yet a 47 win team this year WITH THE EXACT SAME TEAM AND COACH? How is that logic even possible?

Just playing devil's advocate, but:

If you believe that we would have won more close games at the beginning of the year with Bibby at the helm.

If you believe that Bibby's shooting would have made JJ more explosive early in the year.

If you believe that our young players are not only talented, but will continue to improve.

And if you believe that our team chemistry will improve as they continue to work together, and Bibby gets a chance to get comfortable and really study his teammates (and Acie improves in this regard as well).

Then no, a ten win improvement doesn't seem that far-fetched.

[Admin]

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how the hell do you believe we were a 37 win team last year and yet a 47 win team this year WITH THE EXACT SAME TEAM AND COACH? How is that logic even possible?

Are you (and your team of co-workers) better and more efficient this year than you were the year before? I know that I am and my skill set becomes more well rounded each year and my team becomes more productive. It's the exact same thing with the Hawks. Every player on our team is still growing, to varying degrees, and it's not illogical to think that a couple of them could have much improved seasons over last year. This is just natural progression with a young team. I could see you being confused on this if we had an old team but we are very young and on the rise and have gotten better every single year so it seems pretty logical to me that we will continue to improve even without making significant roster changes.

[Dsinner]

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It's not easy to continue winning more games every year. Granted it's much easier starting at 13 but until the point comes where we stop winning more games than the previous season I will continue to be proud of our improvement.

Nevermind. I now understand your logic. As long as we improve you are happy. Even if we only win an extra game a year and it takes another 5-7 years just to become a .500 ballclub you will be proud. Easily entertained I see.

[Admin]

Oh did I say that? I missed the part where I said 1 game improvement each year would make me happy. You either have very selective memory or don't pay attention as I have repeatedly said that anything less than .500 next year is a failure and that Woody should be fired for that. Perhaps you should take the time to do more than selectively read posts before you start slinging mud.

[ATLBob]

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Nevermind. I now understand your logic. As long as we improve you are happy. Even if we only win an extra game a year and it takes another 5-7 years just to become a .500 ballclub you will be proud. Easily entertained I see.

That analysis is ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Don't be stupid just to get under someone's skin.

[Dsinner]

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Sorry so late on this thread but how the hell do you believe we were a 37 win team last year and yet a 47 win team this year WITH THE EXACT SAME TEAM AND COACH? How is that logic even possible?

Just playing devil's advocate, but:

If you believe that we would have won more close games at the beginning of the year with Bibby at the helm.

If you believe that Bibby's shooting would have made JJ more explosive early in the year.

If you believe that our young players are not only talented, but will continue to improve.

And if you believe that our team chemistry will improve as they continue to work together, and Bibby gets a chance to get comfortable and really study his teammates (and Acie improves in this regard as well).

Then no, a ten win improvement doesn't seem that far-fetched.

It is when they are the same players with the same coach. All things being equal (which they have the past 4 years) we will progress at the same rate we've been progressing at. Same talent, same coach = same progression. I'll admit that might not be 100% certain, but when you don't change the formula, the chances of the outcome changing are close to zero. Sure we will get better because we are young, but not at any higher of a rate than the last few years. They're the same players who progress at the same level with this coach.

[Dsinner]

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how the hell do you believe we were a 37 win team last year and yet a 47 win team this year WITH THE EXACT SAME TEAM AND COACH? How is that logic even possible?

Are you (and your team of co-workers) better and more efficient this year than you were the year before? I know that I am and my skill set becomes more well rounded each year and my team becomes more productive. It's the exact same thing with the Hawks. Every player on our team is still growing, to varying degrees, and it's not illogical to think that a couple of them could have much improved seasons over last year. This is just natural progression with a young team. I could see you being confused on this if we had an old team but we are very young and on the rise and have gotten better every single year so it seems pretty logical to me that we will continue to improve even without making significant roster changes.

My coworkers improve at the SAME rate every year because that's what they're capable of doing. You take 5 guys and map their progession there is no reason to believe that they will accomplish an unusual 200% increase one year simply because I want them to.

BTW if our bosses got me and my coworkers to progress at the rate the Hawks have he would be fired. Funny you try to bring up real world examples when keeping Woodson around wouldn't fly in a real world workplace.

[Dsinner]

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Oh did I say that? I missed the part where I said 1 game improvement each year would make me happy. You either have very selective memory or don't pay attention as I have repeatedly said that anything less than .500 next year is a failure and that Woody should be fired for that. Perhaps you should take the time to do more than selectively read posts before you start slinging mud.

Yeah, you must have missed it...

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until the point comes where we stop winning more games than the previous season I will continue to be proud of our improvement.

Who has selective memory?

[Dsinner]

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Nevermind. I now understand your logic. As long as we improve you are happy. Even if we only win an extra game a year and it takes another 5-7 years just to become a .500 ballclub you will be proud. Easily entertained I see.

That analysis is ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Don't be stupid just to get under someone's skin.

How am I being stupid? Dolf clearly said this...

"until the point comes where we stop winning more games than the previous season I will continue to be proud of our improvement"

So by that logic having a single game improvement each year is OK with him. I'm simply sick and tired of fans that are clearly OK with being a midiocre team.

Maybe you should take your own advice about being stupid.

[Admin]

Ah, forgive me I should have anticipated that you only improve at the same slight rate each year.

In my field it is expected that you improve each year by acquiring new skills and becoming more proficient at your current skills and that in turn makes the team more productive each year if they put the work in. The same applies to the Hawks.

[Dsinner]

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Ah, forgive me I should have anticipated that you only improve at the same slight rate each year.

In my field it is expected that you improve each year by acquiring new skills and becoming more proficient at your current skills and that in turn makes the team more productive each year if they put the work in. The same applies to the Hawks.

It's really pretty basic math. It's called averages. If my coworkers (or the Hawks) improve by 5% each year for 4 years it's pretty safe to assume we will improve by 5% this year as well. Especially with the exact same training (coaches) and team memebers (players). What would make you think we would double that improvement given no change to the equation?

I see you conveniantly left out this discussion...

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Oh did I say that? I missed the part where I said 1 game improvement each year would make me happy. You either have very selective memory or don't pay attention

It seems you've been forgetting what you actually post a lot lately. Senior moments?