Here's what's missing in Hawks future discussions.

[Diesel]

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Horford has shown the ability to play in the paint and out to 15'. If he works on those things, I have no doubt that he can hit 15ppg. None. It would definitely be in our better interests to explore his offensive ceiling - one of the reasons why I was so critical of Woodson in the offseason. We drafted him, and Woodson flat out said he was only interested in Horf doing the "dirty work." That's all they expected of him, but we should have set his bar a little higher. We'll see what he can do this year.

This is why I hope the spirit hire a guy to be Woody's top assistant who knows about offensive play. I'm talking about positioning and play into uptempo play. Some guys who can do this (I believe) are: Del Harris, Gentry, even Bob Hill.

However, we can't get stuck with Woody trying to be O.C. and playing same on 2 man game with JJ holding the ball 98% of the time.

[Diesel]

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The Growth of Acie Law and Marvin Williams >>>>> anything.

The Big 3 of this team is set. We need contributions from the other 2 guys.

Actually, I think those two growths, are the least likely to happen.

Let me be specific..

I think Acie will grow. He has no choice!! But Bibby will still see the Lion Share of the minutes. I think Marvin might grow some.. but I don't expect much more from Marvin. There's no reason why he shouldn't have grown by now. He's been playing the minutes. He's been playing the position. It's the easiest position in basketball. I think we're seeing his limit. I think Woody recognized this at the end of the season and I look for Woody to play Marvin some early, but will defer most of the Sf minutes to Chillz coming down the stretch of games.

To me. It just makes more sense to move Marvin and try to get a bonafide shooter like Mike Miller or Raja Bell in here.

[Chris18]

Diesel your logic with Marvin is very flawed. You say that you don't think he can improve very much if any but you expect Al's scoring to jump to 15 ppg and possibly 20. Marvin has shown that he can score 20 on any given night but he still needs to bring his best every game. If Acie can stay healthy next year I would expect him to average at least 10 points and 3 or 4 assists.

[exodus]

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I don't expect much more from

Childress

. There's no reason why he shouldn't have grown by now. He's been playing the minutes. He's been playing the position. It's the easiest position in basketball. I think we're seeing his limit.

Childress hasn't progressed in the last 3 years. It is unlikely that he will progress much from here.

[Diesel]

You misread me.

I say that If Al's offense develops, he may get 15 ppg. I also said, I would love for him to be a 20 ppg player but I don't see that happening.

About Marvin. I don't think we will see much more from Marvin than we're getting. Don't be a sucker... Watch him play. He's not aggressive enough to be any more than he is.

You say Marvin has shown that he can score 20 on any given night...

Well, this past season, Marvin scored over 20... 15 times...

15/80 = 19% of his games, he scored over 20.

All of those times, he played over 34 minutes.

7 of those times, he played over 40 minutes.

7 of those games were against playoff teams.

That means that 8 of those games were against lottery teams.

Moreover, in the second half, he only went for 20 2 times. Both times against the lowly Knicks.

Moreover, when you watch his style of play, he's not an offensive force. Hell, he's just a set shot shooter waiting on a pass... Or he ducks his head and runs over somebody. I don't expect much more from him.

[Chris18]

Who cares how many minutes he's playing. I guess Joe isn't as impressive being he plays 42 minutes and only scores 22???

[Traceman]

Marvin at 21:

35 mpg, 46% fg, 15 ppg, 6 rbg, 2 apg, 1 spg

Bell at 31:

35 mpg, 42% fg, 12 ppg, 4 rbg, 2 apg, 1 spg

Bell is a FAR superior 3 point shooter making 40% of the 439 3's he took. BUT, ALL he does on offense is stand behind the 3-point line and wait for Nash to throw him the ball. 58% of his shot attempts were 3's last year. Bell can't create his own shot and he doesn't get to the line AT ALL. He took a TOTAL of 91 FTs for the SEASON while playing 35 mpg. How is that even possible? Meanwhile, Marvin took 409.

Bell's BEST season:

37 mpg, 46% fg, 15 ppg, 3 rbg, 3 apg, 1 spg

Marvin duplicated that at age 21 WITHOUT having the MVP of the league as his PG at the time! If Marvin played with Steve Nash, how good would his numbers be?

Marvin is already a better player than Bell has ever been and Bell is on the downside of his career.

[Diesel]

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Who cares how many minutes he's playing. I guess Joe isn't as impressive being he plays 42 minutes and only scores 22???

Well, mainly we care because what I didn't mention

He played 52 games over 34 mpg...

That means that he had 37 games playing over 34 minutes where he didn't score at least 20 points.

JJ scores over 20 points most of the time he plays over 34 minutes. Marvin scores over 20, 29% of the time he plays over 34 minutes.

We can do better Chris.

Marvin is a dime a dozen player who really doesn't give an impact on the floor.

[foeteen14]

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Who cares how many minutes he's playing. I guess Joe isn't as impressive being he plays 42 minutes and only scores 22???

Well, mainly we care because what I didn't mention

He played 52 games over 34 mpg...

That means that he had 37 games playing over 34 minutes where he didn't score at least 20 points.

JJ scores over 20 points most of the time he plays over 34 minutes. Marvin scores over 20, 29% of the time he plays over 34 minutes.

We can do better Chris.

Marvin is a dime a dozen player who really doesn't give an impact on the floor.

Yeah, but so is raja bell, and he's old

[Diesel]

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Who cares how many minutes he's playing. I guess Joe isn't as impressive being he plays 42 minutes and only scores 22???

Well, mainly we care because what I didn't mention

He played 52 games over 34 mpg...

That means that he had 37 games playing over 34 minutes where he didn't score at least 20 points.

JJ scores over 20 points most of the time he plays over 34 minutes. Marvin scores over 20, 29% of the time he plays over 34 minutes.

We can do better Chris.

Marvin is a dime a dozen player who really doesn't give an impact on the floor.

Yeah, but so is raja bell, and he's old

Raja is old but he's definitely not dime a dozen. You can't find a great defensive player who shoots 40% on his career playing.

Marvin for Raja and #15... All day every day!

[Supporter]

Your a loser.....you want this team to lose dont you........

[foeteen14]

maybe marvin for barbosa and the #15, maybe even straight up. you have to judge some the pheonix guys with a degree skepticism because they are playing with steve nash. the guys that are really and truely good, you know it. but the guys you just don't know about, are probably being helped an enormous amount by nash

[Chris18]

Raja Bell is a system player that has made his living playing next to Steve Nash. On top of that he is not that great of defender and he just looks good because he is playing on one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.

[EazyRoc]

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Who cares how many minutes he's playing. I guess Joe isn't as impressive being he plays 42 minutes and only scores 22???

Well, mainly we care because what I didn't mention

He played 52 games over 34 mpg...

That means that he had 37 games playing over 34 minutes where he didn't score at least 20 points.

JJ scores over 20 points most of the time he plays over 34 minutes. Marvin scores over 20, 29% of the time he plays over 34 minutes.

We can do better Chris.

Marvin is a dime a dozen player who really doesn't give an impact on the floor.

Yeah, but so is raja bell, and he's old

Raja is old but he's definitely not dime a dozen. You can't find a great defensive player who shoots 40% on his career playing.

Marvin for Raja and #15... All day every day!

Raja Bell is a role player and is old. Marvin is a roleplayer, but he knows how to get to the foul line. I don't think you're being fair to Marvin, either. Josh Smith has been in the league longer and doesn't have solid handles, or a solid jumpshot. He's still got a lot to learn. Marvin Williams has the jumpshot, but his handles are just as bad as Smith's. I think he's the better man defender, he just loses focus and gets lazy every now and then. That's when he reaches in or gets caught up in a pick.

I don't know what kind of player that #15 pick will get you, because there is a big demand on centers in the league. There might be a few available, but we don't need to add another project to this team.

[Diesel]

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Raja Bell is a system player that has made his living playing next to Steve Nash. On top of that he is not that great of defender and he just looks good because he is playing on one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.

You got to be kidding?

Bell has shot 40% from three for his whole career. Playing next to Nash for 3 years doesn't do that for you.

Moreover, he's 2nd team all defensive. He's the best defensive player on the Suns... That's true... But he's also a really good defender.

[Traceman]

Marvin is already better than him and he will be FAR better in a couple of years.

[Diesel]

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Marvin is already better than him and he will be FAR better in a couple of years.

If we had Raja Bell instead of Marvin during the playoffs, we would have beaten the Celtics.

He's a better three point shooter than Marvin (who only shot 10 3 pointers all season).

He's a better defender than Marvin (Bell = 2nd team all defensive).

[Chris18]

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Marvin is already better than him and he will be FAR better in a couple of years.

If we had Raja Bell instead of Marvin during the playoffs, we would have beaten the Celtics.

He's a better three point shooter than Marvin (who only shot 10 3 pointers all season).

He's a better defender than Marvin (Bell = 2nd team all defensive).

Mike Bibby was the reason we lost to the Celtics not Marvin.

[ATLBob]

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I believe any serious discussion about Al is Al as the PF.

It is why Zaza is very valuable as his improvement.

It is why Marvin has to be moved to allow Smith to improve as the 3.

It is why the long term PG has to be addressed (aquire Javaris Crittenton).

Zaza can be the effective 5, Al has to be the 4.

Wow, that team has absolutely no shooting help for Joe.

[ATLBob]

This isn't directed at you, Swat, but I'm amazed that some of the same posters who harp on our need for shooters still advocate moving Smoove to the 3.