It comes down to ASG... TRUTH TOLD...

[Diesel]

For all those who think we have actual money... let me tell you.. We don't.

We can't go out and sign Brand or BDiddy instead of Smoove and Chillz.

Here's what we have.

We have ~5 million before we hit the salary cap.

We have ~18 Million before we hit the luxury cap.

What makes it possible for us to resign both Josh and Childress is the fact that we hold their Bird Rights. What that means is that we can resign our own FAs to whatever price we want within the limits.

We could give Chillz and Smoove Max deals if we want to. Nobody is stopping us from doing that.

however, we have to realize this:

IT'S UP TO THE ASG.

If they want Smoove and Chillz they can get them.

What's in play now is that Philly can make an offer to Smoove for up to 19 Million in the first year. That contract is really an 11 Million dollar contract that has been "frontloaded" to 19 million. They know that that will take us past the salary cap and the Luxury tax cap. After we pass the Luxury tax cap, we will have to match dollar for dollar for every penny we're over the cap. That means if we're 7 million over the cap, we have to pay that plus 7 million more to the escrow.

Here's the other truth that nobody has mentioned!!!

You say what's this escrow. The escrow is a system of balancing out everything. If the League makes more than it intends to make then the escrow is given to the owners. Therefore when teams are over the luxury tax, they pay the escrow and that comes back to the owners divided by 31 teams.

Nobody mentions this, but the truth is that we want the FA salary to escalate and more teams to be over the cap. What's happening in Washington is beautiful... Pay Arenas all that money. We want more frontloaded deals. Because the odds are that if more money goes into the escrow, then we will be able to afford whatever price we pay for Smoove and Chillz.

Nobody talks about that.

So basically, it comes down to ASG.

If they want More escrow money vs Smoove and Chillz then we will lose out on Smoove and Chillz. If they don't care about Luxury tax cap, then we will get Smoove and Chillz and maybe one or 2 more free agents ~ 5 million dollars worth.

[Chris18]

I agree that everything comes down to the ASG paying the Joshes what they deserve and not being cheap. If they are committed to improving our team we're going to have to go over the luxury tax but is the ASG willing to do that?

[AtLaS]

Even if we sign Smith with 19 million in his first year, that 19 will not count against the cap. It will be just like JJ's deal, starting small and gradually increasing for cap purposes.

[Diesel]

The 19 does count against the cap. I don't know where you guys keep pulling this fantasy from. How else would Philly get Smoove away from us if the whole 19 doesn't go against the cap? What would be the point of even offering him a frontloaded deal if it doesn't effect the cap?? Please don't say so that he can get more money sooner, that doesn't add up to anything either.

Usually teams going after RFAs will frontload a contract so that the team holding the Bird Rights feel some pain in trying to match.

About JJ.

JJ did too sign a frontloaded contract and it did affect the cap. Because of the great salary jump and the need to be within BYC range, JJ couldn't get the max that his contract would allow in Frontloaded salary but we were able to frontload it to 20 million. Phoenix agreed to take Diaw as BYC payment for JJ in the SNT They also took 6 Million in exemption. That's all that they could take back. However, when you look at JJ's salary, he doesn't get back all 10.5% of his raises. He gets back something like 5% of his raises. That's because part of his raises were given in the frontload.

When we signed JJ, all we had under contract were JSmoove, JChillz, Harrington, Donta. And Harrington was very cheap at about 5 million dollars. We signed JJ, Marvin, Zaza, and Lue. The reason we didn't sign more free agents is because we paid JJ 20 Million and it counted against the cap.

[Guest]

Diaw's salary that year was $1,174,200 per Patricia Bender's website:

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries06.txt

So let's just assume its $1 million to make calculations easier.

Because of JJ's BYC status, his salary counts half for Phoenix in a trade (but in full for the Hawks). Essentially they were trading away 50% of Joe's first year Cap Hit. In order to complete the trade to Atlanta, a Traded Player Exception was created for Phoenix so that they could be within the rules of the CBA.

Now here is the question for you Diesel: IF Joe's caphit was the $20 million that you say it was, then what would that make the TPE?

Let's see, half of $20 million = $10 million. Take that less Boris Diaw's cap hit and that equals roughly $9 million. Now Diesel, please tell me what was the TPE generated in that trade for? The answer, NOT $9 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/stor...marc&id=2120960

Quote:

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The proposed deal, according to sources, would bring guard Boris Diaw and two lottery-protected future first-round picks to Phoenix --

along with a trade exception in the $5 million range

-- after Johnson signs a contract under terms established by Atlanta: $70 million over five years with an estimated balloon payment of $20 million up front.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Diaw's salary that year was $1,174,200 per Patricia Bender's website:

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries06.txt

So let's just assume its $1 million to make calculations easier.

Because of JJ's BYC status, his salary counts half for Phoenix in a trade (but in full for the Hawks). Essentially they were trading away 50% of Joe's first year Cap Hit. In order to complete the trade to Atlanta, a Traded Player Exception was created for Phoenix so that they could be within the rules of the CBA.

Now here is the question for you Diesel: IF Joe's caphit was the $20 million that you say it was, then what would that make the TPE?

Let's see, half of $20 million = $10 million. Take that less Boris Diaw's cap hit and that equals roughly $9 million. Now Diesel, please tell me what was the TPE generated in that trade for? The answer, NOT $9 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/stor...&id=2120960

Quote:

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The proposed deal,

according to sources

, would bring guard Boris Diaw and two lottery-protected future first-round picks to Phoenix -- along with a trade exception in the $5 million range -- after Johnson signs a contract under terms established by Atlanta: $70 million over five years with an estimated balloon payment of $20 million up front.

Let's not forget about the 6+ Million dollar exception that we sent them.

Quote:

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The trade was consummated in August 2005.

The trade initially netted Boris Diaw, two lottery-protected first-round picks and

a $6 million trade exception.

Click

That's already 7 million + Back in exchange for JJ.

Now, we ate the 20. We later signed Marvin, Zaza, and reuped Lue. And that was our Summer... now we had a lot that summer and ending up with what we got.

Check this out.

Notice how far under the cap we were.

JJ was eligible for 6.3 Million in raises over the period of his contract. That's 18.3 million up front possible.

[Guest]

That $6 million exception you are referring to is the TPE that I just discussed. The source you are quoting is wrong because the exception was actually for $4.9 million but that is beside the point.

You never answered my question, what would be the TPE generated from the trade had JJ had a cap hit of $20 million? I know math isn't your strongest area but wouldn't that make the TPE roughly $9 million? Can I get an answer please?

Quote:

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Now, we ate the 20. We later signed Marvin, Zaza, and reuped Lue. And that was our Summer... now we had a lot that summer and ending up with what we got.

All of that was done before the JJ trade. That is pointless anyway because you are wrong. Please answer the TPE question before getting off topic anymore.

[Diesel]

The source I quoted from a few days ago talked about how the exception was Used after they got it and whatever happened to the picks from the trade. Your source was taken from somebody using "sources say". Do you really think my source is in error versus yours?

[Guest]

Quote:

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The source I quoted from a few days ago talked about how the exception was Used after they got it and whatever happened to the picks from the trade. Your source was taken from somebody using "sources say". Do you really think my source is in error versus yours?

Fine Diesel, let's assume that the TPE was for $6 million (even though its wrong, coming from ME and not a "source"). That means Diaw and the TPE equal $7.2 million. Where did the other money go in the trade?

Let's review, and I will assume your numbers.

You now say that JJ's contract started at $18.3 million. Take his BYC status and that means for trade purposes Phoenix uses half of this which equals $9.15 million. Take this value less Diaw and that equals $8 million. That would generate a TPE of $8 million. But wait, YOUR "source" says the TPE was for $6 million! How can that happen per the current CBA???

It can't, you are wrong. His contract started at $12 million. His BYC status makes it $6 million. That is where your "source" came up with the TPE of $6 million, they did not take into account Diaw's cap hit. When you do it correctly, the TPE comes out to be $6 million less Diaw's cap hit. That is where I come up with the $4.9 million number, not from a source.

[Diesel]

Click here

Quote:

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Finally, there is the trade exception. This is a very useful tool, because, essentially, the Suns can pick someone off another team's roster and make a trade for nothing.

Because Atlanta was under the salary cap, the salaries involved in the trade for Johnson did not have to match up -- but Phoenix gets a bonus in the form of the trade exception.

They now have $6 million they can trade to another team that is looking to create cap space.

I think that says it all but....

[Guest]

All that is true except they have the wrong number. It should be $4.9 million.

If they were reporting in Dieselworld, then they would have reported the TPE to be $8 million. But they did not, I wonder why?

[DrReality]

Sure would be nice to hear from JWalder or Sothron about what they hear?

[exodus]

Quote:

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The 19 does count against the cap. I don't know where you guys keep pulling this fantasy from.

They are pulling it from Larry Coons website, question number 62. AHF posted it already and it has been quoted several times.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#62

Looks like the Dieselputer is badly in need of a software upgrade.

[Traceman]

The purpose of frontloading is to make owners who are strapped for cash have to pay significantly more out of their pockets to retain a player. This is not monopoly money, they have to actually pay these guys.

In your scenario, if Smoove gets an $8M signing bonus, the ASG would have to pay Smoove $8M more RIGHT NOW than they would have to pay him if he signed a "standard" deal starting at $11M. Depending on your financial situation, $8M more than you would "normally" have to ACTUALLY pay in a given year could be a significant chunk of change when you have to make payroll.

Think of it this way. The players probably get paid on a monthly basis. If Smoove signs a deal worth $11M in the first year, he probably gets a monthly check of roughly $917,000 a month. If he gets a signing bonus though, they give him an $8M check UP FRONT and that is IN ADDITION TO his monthly salary. Depending on your financial situation, not having $8M to invest elsewhere could have a significant impact on your financial situation. THAT is the reason that frontloading is a big burden to teams with money issues.

All that said, for cap purposes, the deal would be as hawksfanatic and AHF have explained to you on NUMEROUS occasions. The impact is NOT a $19M cap hit this year. I don't know how much clearer it can be explained to you. Let it go. You are wrong.

[MemphisX]

Philly is going to trade some spare parts and put the ASG in the double whammy. Having to pay Josh Smith a big bonus and staring at the luxury tax line. They are going to offer him a big deal, likely today.

[exodus]

Quote:

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Philly is going to trade some spare parts and put the ASG in the double whammy.

Trade them to who exactly? if they trade them to a team over the cap then they get no cap savings at all. The only way they would be able to clear cap space is to trade them to a team under the cap.

I don't see why a team under the cap would want to waste their cap space on Reggie Evans rather than going after a quality free agent.

[Guest]

Willie Green might be attractive to another team with his unguaranteed contract. They could potentially save .67 mil using the 125% rule in a trade involving Green and a team over the cap (finding someone whose salary is $2.7 mil). Green might be able to be traded to a team under the cap, but I don't know who would want him.

Reggie Evans could potentially save them $.93 mil (finding someone whose salary is $3.7 mil) using the 125% rule.

I doubt any of that happens though. Why would you clear out so much cap space (surely also decreasing your overall talent) just for an offer sheet?

[mrhonline]

They've been trying to trade Willie Green for months now. He's likely going nowhere.

The only two teams that can help are Memphis, Golden State, and Chicago, the latter having a trade exception.

[Iman]

Diesel likes to argue and keep this chatroom lively so much that sometimes I can't tell if he's really this bad with math and cap rules. I'm sure glad he's not my accountant..lol.

[Guest]

H, where can you find who currently has a TPE and how much it is? I remember realgm used to have that information but now they only show who has a TPE and not how much it is worth. I thought there might be some more TPE out there currently but I am just guessing at that.