Who here has expectations for Marvin?

[Diesel]

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D I am just getting tired of seeing posts from you about Marvin in any aspect, as I feel other people on the board here are also tired of it. Everyone knows your opinion, but you continue to rehash it over and over.

I am on this board for discussion of new topics, not recurring topics. This is clearly a recurring thread, its boring and getting old.

You missed the point of my post, it actually had nothing to do with bragging. It was just meant as a contrast to your actual opinion of Marvin. It was more of a joke than an insult. And also, why should I answer your question when you never answer my questions?

Fanatic.

When was the last time somebody took one of your positions and insult..I meant Joked about it? If you don't want to hear what I have to say Fanatic, just click ignore? You put up the herring that you come to read new topics.. well, there are a bunch of new topics on the board right now. Have you read any?? Did you read about the LA times article?? I missed your input there? have you read about the smoove and Joe tandem? Have you read the Marc Stein report on Smoove or what about Bogut getting his extension (We have 2 posts on that).

I think once again, you're being disingenuous. You could have responded to here comes the Clippers but you didnt. I think more correctly, Marvin is a firestorm here on Hawksquawk. Everybody here has an opinion on Marvin and his future here with the Hawks. However, those who are fans of Marvin have the same old tired run down theme when it comes to a discussion about Marvin...

If we can't justify Marvin or defend Marvin, let's attack those who are "on the other side". That was your whole purpose of chiming in! Obviously, you don't have any expectations that you'd wish to share. Even those it's the topic thread title... you came in and are trying to "hijack" the thread with another lame personal attack? Is that not your purpose? You first say it's just a joke... next you will say to somebody else... I love to get Diesel Riled up... Well, let see... Since you like to follow me so much and you like to entertain me so much... In my mind, you're either my slave or my woman... If you're my woman, you need to get out on the corner and turns some tricks!!!!

Opps... I was just joking!

[EazyRoc]

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So because the guy realizes that he can consistently knock down the midrange J and he decides to only shoot from that range, you want to hold that against him? Please! Do you realize how good Smoove would be if he could shoot it like Marv from midrange but he stopped taking 3's?

As for Magette and Wallace, they can't shoot from midrange OR 3 pt land.

If we were not the worst three point shooting team in the game what you said would really have some meaning. However, Because we're the worst three point shooting team in the game and Marvin only attempted 10 3 pters on the season... and he plays a position that requires a guy to shoot three pointers... Uhm... your argument is kinda weak. Marvin needs to play beside a PF like Dirk or Okur. A guy who will shoot the three. Otherwise Trace.. all we will do will watch JJ get double and triple teamed. Don't overrate Midrange shooting.

We are not the worst three point shooting team in the game. There are a few teams that are worse than us, and even if we were it's because players who have no business taking 3s are taking them. Marvin will continue to improve on his game, and I can easily see him as a 16-18 ppg with 6-8 reb. next year. I expect his assists to go up slightly as Woodson starts demanding Marvin score more. Also, midrange shooting is very important in this league. Name a big time scorer in this league (that's not a big) that can't hit midrange jumpshots consistently ?

OH...

You're right we are 28/30 in 3PTFGA... And 27/30 in 3PtFGM

So we obviously don't have a problem shooting the threes.

Back to reality.

We do have a problem shooting the threes and MW can be efficient all he wants close to the goal.. all that does is Spacing wise, defensive players can easily play off him and double our shooters. Part of the reason why Sfs make themselves available on the three point line is that in it's third decade, NBA players determined that putting a Sf on the three point line spreads the floor and allows players to work inside better and outside players can shoot without a hand in their face.

So what happens when Most teams have Sfs shooting 180 - 600 3 pters in a season and Marvin shows up with his 10... That puts a lot of pressure on the other players on this team to make up for that lack of spacing. So you have our PF (Smoove) hanging out shooting those shots he's not supposed to take.

Lastly. Midrange Shooting was defined as NOT important a long time ago. When basketball players became better defensive players, the Midrange shooter's era was over. Big Dog was the last midrange shooter who was able to do something... and that's because he had a lot of physicality to his game. He could get his shot off while being hit. Can Marvin do that?

The Midrange game was upgraded to either: 1. The three point threat. 2. The drive by. Go back into your basketball history and pull up Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen. They were the upgrade to the Sf position in this regard.

Perhaps you need to do more research. We were 17th in the league for Home 3pt% and 14th in the league away from home.

Who deemed midranged shooting as not important, you ? Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Dwayne Wade, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Mike Redd, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Martin etc. all use the midrange game heavily. Like I said, all big time scorers barring bigs use the midrange game, because in today's game defenders are much better. Which means they can't always shoot the 3 or take the ball to the hoop. Enter the pull-up jumpshot. LeBron James is the only player I can think of who doesn't use the midrange game to score, and that's because hes an athletic freak of nature.

[Diesel]

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I mean he has decent numbers. Diesel this is JJ's team. Marvin is the third option. If the team was built around Marvin I would agree with you. I believe that if JJ wasn't here Marvin, Josh, and Smoove would probably be better players. Joe takes all of the shots, Joe gets a majority of the possessions. Marv does good considering he doesn't get 15-20 shots a game. You constantly talk about Maggette, Deng, etc but you are talking about guys who are the top options on their team. Think about what you are saying. My expectations are for him to give us 16-22 ppg 6-8 rbs. He definitely needs to get his assists up.

You're right... It is JJ's team. JJ does take a majority of shots. However, JJ also leads this team in assists. I have the feeling if Marvin asked for the ball, he would get more shots. JJ in no way is old Kobe. JJ's personality is not to hog the ball on purpose. I think he does it so much because that's what defenses give him AND our players are not in good positions. If you watched the playoffs one thing you noticed is that JJ and Bibby had a two man game going most of the time and that JJ could find Horf, Marv, and Smoove when they were open. The problem is that it's rare that Marvin makes himself available. Marvin gets a lot of his point early because that's how we play it. But he does nothing to turn it on when he can. If you noticed down the stretch in the season, Woody elected to start allow Chillz to finish out the game and he sat Marvin. Reason being is because Chillz put in the work to be impactful down the stretch whereas, Marvin tended to disappear.

[Diesel]

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Perhaps you need to do more research. We were 17th in the league for Home 3pt% and 14th in the league away from home.

Who deemed midranged shooting as not important, you ? Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Dwayne Wade, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Mike Redd, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Martin etc. all use the midrange game heavily. Like I said, all big time scorers barring bigs use the midrange game, because in today's game defenders are much better. Which means they can't always shoot the 3 or take the ball to the hoop. Enter the pull-up jumpshot. LeBron James is the only player I can think of who doesn't use the midrange game to score, and that's because hes an athletic freak of nature.

3pt % is not what's going to help keep the defenders off JJ. In fact, JJ is responsible for that 3pt%. INstead of insisting I research, I think you need to think about the research I have already given.

We were 28 and 27 in 3PA and 3PM. That's horrible. What that says is that we don't consistently try to spread the floor. I don't consider the 3 pter to be the end all and be all, however, in the lack of a low post offensive scorer, we need to be able to do something from outside that can help our quasi low post scorers and our scoring Sg. When you don't shoot the three teams Compact the lane and they double scorers. Namely because they are not worried. That's why Smoove is always open on the three point line. Teams don't fear him out there. He sometimes have an eternity to shoot the three because that's what they want.. and his big shots are those threes that he hit when we need it.

Bibby will help us with his three point shooting. Bibby has no conscience. However, the Sf Position has to shoot more than 10 3 pters.

[Guest]

I see you are still mad about being owned about the CBA from last week.

[ATLBob]

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JJ - 20 ppg

Smith - 17 ppg

Marvin - 16 ppg

Horford - 14 ppg

Bibby - 11 ppg

Chill - 11 ppg

Acie - 8 ppg

Zaza - 4 ppg

Rest of bench - 4 ppg

Total points : 105 ppg ( we averaged 103.5 ppg after the all-star break last season )

Nice #'s, pretty close to what I had when I tried this earlier this morning.

We scored 106ppg over the last 10 games of the season, so I'll set that as a benchmark.

JJ - 22 ppg

Smith - 18 ppg

Marvin - 15 ppg

Horford - 14 ppg

Bibby - 11 ppg

Chill - 11 ppg

Acie - 7 ppg

Zaza - 4 ppg

Rest of bench - 4 ppg

[ATLBob]

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Who's going to guide this offense where each player averages 14-20 ppg? Woody? Hahahahahaha.... But, for real, what's going on with our coaching staff? Who's going to be the X and O offensive coach that will lead our team to accomplish this "lofty" goal?

7

Um ... we scored 106 ppg over the last 10 games of the season.

Math is pretty cool sometimes.

[ATLBob]

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It isn't his efficiency as a shooter that i am concerned about. It is more of a spacing issue. If he is a 3 pt threat that will open up more space for smith and Horford inside.

Precisely.

[jhay610]

love the sig....

[Wurider05]

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I mean he has decent numbers. Diesel this is JJ's team. Marvin is the third option. If the team was built around Marvin I would agree with you. I believe that if JJ wasn't here Marvin, Josh, and Smoove would probably be better players. Joe takes all of the shots, Joe gets a majority of the possessions. Marv does good considering he doesn't get 15-20 shots a game. You constantly talk about Maggette, Deng, etc but you are talking about guys who are the top options on their team. Think about what you are saying. My expectations are for him to give us 16-22 ppg 6-8 rbs. He definitely needs to get his assists up.

You're right... It is JJ's team. JJ does take a majority of shots. However, JJ also leads this team in assists. I have the feeling if Marvin asked for the ball, he would get more shots. JJ in no way is old Kobe. JJ's personality is not to hog the ball on purpose. I think he does it so much because that's what defenses give him AND our players are not in good positions. If you watched the playoffs one thing you noticed is that JJ and Bibby had a two man game going most of the time and that JJ could find Horf, Marv, and Smoove when they were open. The problem is that it's rare that Marvin makes himself available. Marvin gets a lot of his point early because that's how we play it. But he does nothing to turn it on when he can. If you noticed down the stretch in the season, Woody elected to start allow Chillz to finish out the game and he sat Marvin. Reason being is because Chillz put in the work to be impactful down the stretch whereas, Marvin tended to disappear.

I can agree with you on the part about the disappearing. That is one of those many bad habits that Woody has allowed Marv, Smoove, and Chillz to develop. Marv came up big in Game 6 for us in the Boston series. Before you start the blaming Woody for Marvin thread, let me explain. IF Woody observed that Marvin was disappearing in games he should have put him on the bench and cut his playing time same with SMoove's taking bad shots and high turnover rate. If the coach has never took any actions to correct the problems then who really is to blame. There is no question that Marv is a talented player and of he and Smoove I think that he would probable is the most coachable. I said it once and I will say it again Woody is wrong for this team. The players do have responsibilities but there is a reason why teams have coaches.

[Diesel]

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I see you are still mad about being owned about the CBA from last week.

yeah... I made this thread specifically for you!!

Welcome to my trap fanatic... I finally got you where I want you. NOW I will own you...

Dude...Wake TF up and grow up. There's no BFFs here.

And if you could... Stay on topic? Do you have expectations or not?

[Diesel]

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JJ - 20 ppg

Smith - 17 ppg

Marvin - 16 ppg

Horford - 14 ppg

Bibby - 11 ppg

Chill - 11 ppg

Acie - 8 ppg

Zaza - 4 ppg

Rest of bench - 4 ppg

Total points : 105 ppg ( we averaged 103.5 ppg after the all-star break last season )

Nice #'s, pretty close to what I had when I tried this earlier this morning.

We scored 106ppg over the last 10 games of the season, so I'll set that as a benchmark.

JJ - 22 ppg

Smith - 18 ppg

Marvin - 15 ppg

Horford - 14 ppg

Bibby - 11 ppg

Chill - 11 ppg

Acie - 7 ppg

Zaza - 4 ppg

Rest of bench - 4 ppg

My only problem here is that these are very similar to what we have seen last year?

I don't think it will be that way.

Bibby was a 17 ppg PG last year before the injury.

Won't Smoove improve?

Don't you expect better from Marvin and Acie?

Zaza = only 4 ppg?

I understand trying to be modest, but I think we're a little better than that.

[Diesel]

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I mean he has decent numbers. Diesel this is JJ's team. Marvin is the third option. If the team was built around Marvin I would agree with you. I believe that if JJ wasn't here Marvin, Josh, and Smoove would probably be better players. Joe takes all of the shots, Joe gets a majority of the possessions. Marv does good considering he doesn't get 15-20 shots a game. You constantly talk about Maggette, Deng, etc but you are talking about guys who are the top options on their team. Think about what you are saying. My expectations are for him to give us 16-22 ppg 6-8 rbs. He definitely needs to get his assists up.

You're right... It is JJ's team. JJ does take a majority of shots. However, JJ also leads this team in assists. I have the feeling if Marvin asked for the ball, he would get more shots. JJ in no way is old Kobe. JJ's personality is not to hog the ball on purpose. I think he does it so much because that's what defenses give him AND our players are not in good positions. If you watched the playoffs one thing you noticed is that JJ and Bibby had a two man game going most of the time and that JJ could find Horf, Marv, and Smoove when they were open. The problem is that it's rare that Marvin makes himself available. Marvin gets a lot of his point early because that's how we play it. But he does nothing to turn it on when he can. If you noticed down the stretch in the season, Woody elected to start allow Chillz to finish out the game and he sat Marvin. Reason being is because Chillz put in the work to be impactful down the stretch whereas, Marvin tended to disappear.

I can agree with you on the part about the disappearing. That is one of those many bad habits that Woody has allowed Marv, Smoove, and Chillz to develop. Marv came up big in Game 6 for us in the Boston series. Before you start the blaming Woody for Marvin thread, let me explain. IF Woody observed that Marvin was disappearing in games he should have put him on the bench and cut his playing time same with SMoove's taking bad shots and high turnover rate. If the coach has never took any actions to correct the problems then who really is to blame. There is no question that Marv is a talented player and of he and Smoove I think that he would probable is the most coachable. I said it once and I will say it again Woody is wrong for this team. The players do have responsibilities but there is a reason why teams have coaches.

I vehemently disagree about your contention that Woody's to blame about Marvin. IN fact, I think you can probably coincide Woody letting Chillz close out games with Woody's vote of confidence from the ASG AFTER we traded for Bibs.

I wish somebody could get the truth from BK.

I think what happened is that BK didn't want to trade for Bibs.

I think Bk was forced to do the deal.

I think BK wanted Woody fired (that we know).

But I also think BK forced Woody to play Marv high minutes.

When you think about it, who had the most to gain with Marv being out there? BK.

BK picked Marv and I'm sure he really pressed Wood to develop him. Moreso than JJ and Smoove, Marv was BK's legacy. It was a legacy going sour with Paul being talked about as MVP of the league. I'm sure he traded Al Harrington away (even though Harrington expressed that he would like to stay) simply because he wanted to develop Marvin. I'm sure that he made Chillz a 6th man.. even though Chillz has topped Marvin as far as on-court impact goes because he wanted to develop Marv. Finally, I'm sure Marv playing was probably a top priority for Woody by edict from BK. However, as Wood felt the pressure of BK's foot off of his neck, you noticed that he used Marv strategically and not down the stretch.

This season will be interesting.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Who's going to guide this offense where each player averages 14-20 ppg? Woody? Hahahahahaha.... But, for real, what's going on with our coaching staff? Who's going to be the X and O offensive coach that will lead our team to accomplish this "lofty" goal?

7

Um ... we scored 106 ppg over the last 10 games of the season.

Math is pretty cool sometimes.

Some people on this board continue to have the pre-Bibby vision of the offense, and not the post-Bibby one. The Bibby-led version of the Hawks were a pretty good scoring team, and a team that shot 38% from 3. Only the good defensive teams slowed us down. That, and Bibby's cold shooting at times.

Defensively is where the Bibby-led Hawks need to get better.

[Teeareess]

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Uhm... let me reveal this to you. Everybody here has an agenda.

I've been here long enough to know that. It just gets old when every post is trying to further your own agenda.

[ATLBob]

I sure hope so D.

I'd love to see us up around 115 ppg.

But the modest 106 seemed more defensible to base a proposal on.

Given 115, say, give 4-5 ppg more to Bibby (he's be having more 20 pt nights than 10, and on reflection, 11-2 ppg does seem not just seem modest, but downright too low), distribute the remainder to Zaza, Chillz, Law.

I don't see anyone regressing, but it's not like their minutes will be increasing.

(Well, except hopefully AC and Zaza. In fact, with less job pressure, Woody might even decide to develop bench scoring, which would void these #s, but we'll have to see).

[Traceman]

Assuming everyone stays healthy SOMEBODY (or somebodies) are going to score fewer points than expected. That doesn't mean that they won't be improved. I can EASILY see Smoove scoring less than last year while becoming a better player. Same goes for JJ.

[drzachary]

I expect that he will cure cancer, broker peace in the Middle East, and discover the reason why women are all completely insane. I also expect that he will play basketball well enough to grant us at least a temporary reprieve from the bleating of his critics. (I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine which of these four things would be the greatest accomplishment.)

[TheTrueSiete]

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Who's going to guide this offense where each player averages 14-20 ppg? Woody? Hahahahahaha.... But, for real, what's going on with our coaching staff? Who's going to be the X and O offensive coach that will lead our team to accomplish this "lofty" goal?

7

Um ... we scored 106 ppg over the last 10 games of the season.

Math is pretty cool sometimes.

Ummm.. Ok, I guess I should just assume that the offense THROUGHOUT THE SEASON next year will definitely mimic the LAST 10 GAMES LAST YEAR? Very broad assumption!

7

[AnakinJoe]

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I say Marvin will become more of a

defensive presence

while scoring closer to 14 points with 6 boards.

AnakinJoe, could you be more specfic about exactly what a defensive presence is? Hell, I can put a chair in front of the goal and it would be a defensive presence. Sheez, I think we can loosely define Paul Davis as a defensive presence. Could you give a little detail please?

Remember what he did in the Boston series against Pierce? He played him tough and played above avergae defense). That is what I expect for 81 games next season. I expect that he will focus on doing other things than scoring to help the team win. I expect 12-14 points and improved defensive play. I'm not suggesting that he will become our Bowen or Tayshaun next season. But instead of JJ being the sole perimeter defender, I think Marvin will work to provide more assistance in that area (again, like he did against Boston). Ultimately, that should help the team win more games. But most people around here are more interested in individual stats.

If Marvin adds 6 points to his scoring average next season, does that mean the Hawks are scoring 6 more points as a team? Of course not. More than likely, that means another starter is taking fewer shots and the points are moving from one bucket to another. Who cares, unless the outcome translates into wins? (I don't even care if it means better offensive balance, floor spacing or more efficient scoring... nothing else matters but winning more than 37 games).