This has got to be a humbling experience for Josh

[Admin]

with no teams offering him a contract and the dollars drying up so quickly. Obviously he felt that he was worth more than the league thinks he is worth and I think that when it's all said and done he will get a little more than he turned down last year but a lot less than he thought he should get. I think that this could be similar to the motivation that he got from being humiliated on draft night by Jackass Bilas and Smoove will come out with a chip on his shoulder trying to prove to everyone that he is worth max dollars.

[mrhonline]

I'm not so sure this won't drag out a little longer even if the Clippers spend their money.

There's always teams like Detroit that are smart enough to drive up a RFA's value by offering S&T's.

[DrReality]

Agreed. Gotta think it started out on a high with hopes of what would happen. And since then its been a rollercoaster. With so many other names being raised as potential guys to sign it's got to be tough. And he's still a very young man. Could be one of those things that turns into a valuable learning experiences.

The Clips are definately telling him something about what kind of franchise they are and what it would be like to play for them. Hope he's paying attention.

[DrReality]

And now this:

... Clippers and Warriors interested in Shawn Marion

[DrReality]

Who are you gonna believe?

Philadelphia were able to steal Elton Brand away from the L.A. Clippers, and now will the Clippers attempt to steal Andre Iguodala away from the Sixers?

[Deeman]

What if it turns out he is pissed about his contract? If I were him I would be extremely pissed if the Hawks lowballed me. I just hope he is not disgruntled and causes problems if he doesn't like his contract.

[AtlHomer]

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What if it turns out he is pissed about his contract? If I were him I would be extremely pissed if the Hawks lowballed me. I just hope he is not disgruntled and causes problems if he doesn't like his contract.

Who can say what is 'fair market value' for Smith? Obviously, Smith 'may' feel his value is higher than the market suggests his is. The Hawks probably want to pay what is 'fair' without overpaying.

I wish I knew if contract suggestions/offers have been exchanged. While Smith should try to find out what other teams would be willing to pay, we are getting close to the time where he needs to make a decision whether he wants to play for the Hawks. If so, they can get together to negotiate a contract. He does have the option of taking the one year tender if he feels he is not being compensated fairly.

[crimedog]

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The Clips are definately telling him something about what kind of franchise they are and what it would be like to play for them. Hope he's paying attention.

As I've said, it should be a lesson for the ASG too.

Josh can't expect to make much, if any, more than Bogut or Al Jefferson. On the other hand, we offered him 15/20 less than those guys last time negotiations happened. That is insulting. ASG has to look at what guys like Maggette brought in and think before trying to pull a fast one. The Clippers got where they are today by being notoriously cheap and unfriendly towards their players, the Hawks have a decision to make about whether they want to be a similar team.

None of the RFAs have been signed yet. Once the Clippers make their move, guys like Biedrins, Deng, and Okafor are going to be locked up. If those teams make their moves before the Hawks, don't expect Smith's agents to take 8 million less or something.

[Diesel]

Teams rarely through Money at RFAs. IF Josh is brave (stupid) enough to go after the QO, there will be plenty of big offers next year.

[crimedog]

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Teams rarely through Money at RFAs. IF Josh is brave (stupid) enough to go after the QO, there will be plenty of big offers next year.

I don't see that being a problem unless ASG decides to stick at 5/50 or something.

[AnakinJoe]

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Josh can't expect to make much, if any, more than Bogut or Al Jefferson. On the other hand, we offered him 15/20 less than those guys last time negotiations happened. That is insulting. ASG has to look at what guys like Maggette brought in and think before trying to pull a fast one. The Clippers got where they are today by being notoriously cheap and unfriendly towards their players, the Hawks have a decision to make about whether they want to be a similar team.

Keep in mind that last summer's negotiation came on the heels of Smith getting suspended for cursing out his coach AND after the season when he gave the fans the finger. Let's not pretend that he was coming off some remarkable performance in '06-07 and didn't have emotional baggage. Also, if the Hawks had won 32 games last season (which I think was the pace prior to the Bibby trade), I don't think Smith would be looking at a deal over $10M/season.

I said last year that his next contract should be tied to the team's success. They made the playoffs so he should reap some benefit. Had they not, then his contract offer should have reflected the ongoing disappointment of the team's progress. I think a base contract of 5/$60M is fair and throw in a ton of team-related incentives that can get him in the $70M-$75M range. Don't comp him for blocks or DPOY or All-Star status or any other individual accomplishment. Tie the incentives to team success, like playoff appearances, winning a playoff series, earning home court advantage, winning 48+ regular season games, etc.

[crimedog]

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Josh can't expect to make much, if any, more than Bogut or Al Jefferson. On the other hand, we offered him 15/20 less than those guys last time negotiations happened. That is insulting. ASG has to look at what guys like Maggette brought in and think before trying to pull a fast one. The Clippers got where they are today by being notoriously cheap and unfriendly towards their players, the Hawks have a decision to make about whether they want to be a similar team.

Keep in mind that last summer's negotiation came on the heels of Smith getting suspended for cursing out his coach AND after the season when he gave the fans the finger. Let's not pretend that he was coming off some remarkable performance in '06-07 and didn't have emotional baggage. Also, if the Hawks had won 32 games last season (which I think was the pace prior to the Bibby trade), I don't think Smith would be looking at a deal over $10M/season.

I said last year that his next contract should be tied to the team's success. They made the playoffs so he should reap some benefit. Had they not, then his contract offer should have reflected the ongoing disappointment of the team's progress. I think a base contract of 5/$60M is fair and throw in a ton of team-related incentives that can get him in the $70M-$75M range. Don't comp him for blocks or DPOY or All-Star status or any other individual accomplishment. Tie the incentives to team success, like playoff appearances, winning a playoff series, earning home court advantage, winning 48+ regular season games, etc.

Well they certainly shouldn't have offered him the max or anything but as long as we are putting things in context, don't forget that Joe had been injured and Smith had been a 20-10-3-3 guy for the last couple of months of the season.

As far as personal baggage, yeah he'd screwed up but no one was worried about him breaking the law or leading the league in techs and those kind of guys get max contract too as long as they produce.

Like I said, we didn't have to offer the full house but you are kidding yourself if you think his agents would have let him accept a full 20M less than Al Jefferson.

[AnakinJoe]

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Like I said, we didn't have to offer the full house but you are kidding yourself if you think his agents would have let him accept a full 20M less than Al Jefferson.

I think the $45M was a good starting point and should have ended around $55M (I think that's more than what Tayshaun or Josh Howard received during the previous summer). From what Sekou reported, Hawks made an initial offer, Smith's guys said no. In most negotiations, the agent should have come back with a counter-proposal, "no" is not a counter-proposal. Maybe they did and it wasn't reported, or maybe they didn't really want to try to negotiate a long-term contract after their client's emotional nonsense. Especially if they had already made arrangements for him to work out with Murphy and Hakeem. No one ever seems to consider that maybe Smith's agents knew that they were working without the desired "ammunition" to procure a substantial deal. Maybe they were the ones who "punted" to give their client another season to show and prove. No need for the ASG to bid against themselves by answering "no" with another offer.

Again, if someone goes to a car lot and offers $20,000 for a good car and the sales guy says "no", only a fool would float another offer before trying to receive a specific counter offer from the sales guy. If you blurt out $25,000, who knows if the sales guy would have said $22,000? It's a negotiation, both sides need to come to the table ready to discuss specific numbers. We have NO evidence that Smith's agents were ready to do that last summer.

[crimedog]

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Like I said, we didn't have to offer the full house but you are kidding yourself if you think his agents would have let him accept a full 20M less than Al Jefferson.

I think the $45M was a good starting point and should have ended around $55M (I think that's more than what Tayshaun or Josh Howard received during the previous summer). From what Sekou reported, Hawks made an initial offer, Smith's guys said no. In most negotiations, the agent should have come back with a counter-proposal, "no" is not a counter-proposal. Maybe they did and it wasn't reported, or maybe they didn't really want to try to negotiate a long-term contract after their client's emotional nonsense. Especially if they had already made arrangements for him to work out with Murphy and Hakeem. No one ever seems to consider that maybe Smith's agents knew that they were working without the desired "ammunition" to procure a substantial deal. Maybe they were the ones who "punted" to give their client another season to show and prove. No need for the ASG to bid against themselves by answering "no" with another offer.

Again, if someone goes to a car lot and offers $20,000 for a good car and the sales guy says "no", only a fool would float another offer before trying to receive a specific counter offer from the sales guy. If you blurt out $25,000, who knows if the sales guy would have said $22,000? It's a negotiation, both sides need to come to the table ready to discuss specific numbers. We have NO evidence that Smith's agents were ready to do that last summer.

Haha, you offer 45/5 and they say "no" its in your best interest to offer something else because unless ASG was living in a dream world they knew he wasn't going to take that.

If they offered 55/5 and Smith's people said "no" and didn't counter, sure call it a day and tell them you'll see thim next offseason.

Your example has no context. If you go to the car dealership and see a similar car get sold for $30K (maybe it has a bigger engine but it's shocks are stiffer and transmission is less advanced) and you offer $18K, of course the dealer will say "no". He'll probably be laughing too hard, or too insulted to answer... depending on his disposition.

You make Smith's problems seem like much bigger issues than they were even at the time. Especially considering that Zaza and AJ have had the same issues with coach and that guys like Rasheed Wallace have been signed to bigger contracts with a much longer history of malfeasance.

No, we don't know what happened but 4/45 is Bobby Simmons money.

[AnakinJoe]

Just because Simmons received a bad contract and just because teams babied Rasheed, doesn't mean the Hawks are forced to make similar mistakes, especially with a 21 year-old (at the time). Hell, I guess you expect every injury riddled back-up PG to get a Speedy deal because of that precedent. And every injury riddled big man to get a Nene type deal.

And just because other players have disagreements with a coach doesn't give the next guy a right to have a hissy-fit. What is this, 2nd grade? (Bobby throw a spit ball at the teacher so I could too). Who cares what Zaza did, since when is he a role-model for player behavior? Rasheed? Please. Has anyone wasted more talent in their NBA career than Rasheed Wallace? Here's my challenge, ask a player's agent would they rather negotiate a contract after Smith's '06-07 year or his '07-08 year. Stats are not much different (take a look, they are really not that much better year-over-year). The difference, he showed better emotional stability and his team made the playoffs. Maybe, just maybe, Smith's agents punted while the Hawks refused to bid against themselves. Seems like a completely logical strategy from both sides.

[crimedog]

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Just because Simmons received a bad contract and just because teams babied Rasheed, doesn't mean the Hawks are forced to make similar mistakes, especially with a 21 year-old (at the time). Hell, I guess you expect every injury riddled back-up PG to get a Speedy deal because of that precedent. And every injury riddled big man to get a Nene type deal.

And just because other players have disagreements with a coach doesn't give the next guy a right to have a hissy-fit. What is this, 2nd grade? (Bobby throw a spit ball at the teacher so I could too). Who cares what Zaza did, since when is he a role-model for player behavior? Rasheed? Please. Has anyone wasted more talent in their NBA career than Rasheed Wallace? Here's my challenge, ask a player's agent would they rather negotiate a contract after Smith's '06-07 year or his '07-08 year. Stats are not much different (take a look, they are really not that much better year-over-year). The difference, he showed better emotional stability and his team made the playoffs. Maybe, just maybe, Smith's agents punted while the Hawks refused to bid against themselves. Seems like a completely logical strategy from both sides.

You are missing my point. The fact that Woody has had problems with about half of his players should tell you something.

That being said, even if his attitude was a major concern, it wasn't major enough to make an offer that much lower than what everyone else was pulling in IF they actually wanted to get a deal done. I think the Hawks dodged a bullet because the Clippers got "Falked" but they would have been smarter resigning last season.

If we walk out of this with Smith signed to a reasonable contract, I'll be happy but I still think that it was in the Hawks' best interest to work harder at it last season.