Diesel Hawks thought of the day. 7/15/08

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Which of these turned out to be the worse move of the Babcock era:

1. Trading Dominique for Manning.

2. Trading Smitty for JR, JJ.

3. Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

4. Trading Deke for Nazr, Kukoc, and Theo.

5. Trading Mookie for JT, Ferrell.

Dominique for Manning.

If I had to say, I would say that this was one of the dumbest moves in Hawks history. However, let's try to understand Babcock's reasoning. Nique was tired of being paid less than Koncak. He was old (34). Babcock knew that the Hawks were going to have to pony up the money to pay Nique. And Stacey Augmon was in the wings. Danny Manning was a young stud (26). He was promised to be a great PF.

The problem. The Hawks were a winning team. The best in the east at the time of the trade. And finally, there was no more Jordan. However, the biggest problem came with what Nique did and what the Hawks did after he left. After Nique left, the Hawks went on to lose to the Pacers in the second round of the playoffs. In that time, D Manning provided a lot of points and scoring but wasn't a leader. He could not take the team and make it his. Nique on the other hand went to LAC and put up the numbers of his youth: 29 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 45% shooting.

2. Smith for JR and JJ

Was this move dumb? At the time? yes. Now? Yes.

The problem. The problem with this move is that the move wasn't well thought out. The Hawks had just finished 2nd in the conference, Lost in the second round of the playoffs to a Knicks team that went on to the NBA finals, and Babcock believed it was time to start over. His big three were: (29, 31, and 32 respectively) and there was a belief that if you could get younger, you would do better? So Babcock destructed the team. My problem wasn't really with JR (I'll talk about that in a moment). My problem was with the shortsidedness of the Babcock decision. Babcock made this decision on a season that was a lock out season. When we returned to play, most of the players were out of shape...and those that were in shape, got injured. Remember, we had Laphonzo Ellis and this was the year that Alan Henderson was poked in the eye. In the finals, all we had was Corbin and Long and that was only the first series. We also were splitting time between the Georgia Dome and the Thriller Dome. Babcock made this decision in knee Jerk fashion... Mainly because he saw Latrell Sprewell running up and down the court.

Smith was our captain. He was the guy who got us points and he was tough. At the same time, he was soft spoken. We traded him for two young guys (as PTL built a monster team). JR Rider = troublemaker. JJ = also a troublemaker. Rider was a calculated gamble according to Babcock. 6 months later, after being found outside of his hotel room smoking pot... Rider was released. Let's not talk about the cell phones or the player abuse. While we watched Smitty destroy a young Kobe Bryant in the West, we suffered through JR. Then there was JJ. He was the "rubber band man". He wasn't so bad but he had his issues also. Mainly, he was a star at OSU but he never displayed any leadership. In fact, JJ was the anti leader. It all made for a mess.

3. Trading Kukoc for Big Dog.

This was the mark of the Babcock years. Trading old for young. We traded an often injured 33 year old, europlayer for a former rookie of the year.. 30 year old . Big Dog...

The problem. Babcock didn't consider 2 things.

1. The rocky road between Big Dog and Allen in Milwaukee. The fact that Allen thought of Big Dog as a non-defensive ball hog. Nor the fact that without the coaching of Dunleavy, Milwaukee fell apart. That suggests that you need good coaching. We had Kruger... nuff said.

2. Kukoc was actually the biggest help that JT ever had. Kukoc had that gift of making those around him better and for a PG sized guy who wasn't a PG, Kukoc was what we had been searching for through all of the other mediators: E. Davis, M. Maloney, B. Knight, JJ, JR. We had finally gotten rid of the minime backcourt and we could play with Kukoc Terry and Glover or Kukoc Terry and Demarr. Did I say Dion Glover? We changed that for better scoring... But we took a great loss chemistry wise.

Trading Deke for Nazr, Kukoc, and Theo.

The greatest shot blocker in hawks franchise history. The most intimidating big in Hawks franchise history. The best rebounder in the NBA (better than Rodman that year). We took on Philly's injured reserve for Deke. What was Babcock's perspective. We have to trade our stars before they get old on us. Deke was in his last year. He was 32 (some say 39). I remember one Walter saying that Deke wouldn't last 2 years after the trade... something about Big Country would be better than Deke in 2 years. It's 10 years later and Deke just signed a 2 year deal.

The problem. This was part of Babcock's rebuild. However, Babcock never considered what he was getting. Theo sat a whole season with an ingrown toenail. Larry Brown hated Theo because he was a punk. It's amazing that Theo put together one season so that he could be DPOY. Like we said before, Kukoc was a great player, just often injured by the time we got him. Finally, Nazr... was a young C from the UK. He turned out to be pretty good... However, that's nothing when you see Deke going toe to toe with Shaq in the finals.

Trading Mookie for JT, Ferrell.

Again, we trade age for youth. However, this case was truly a sign of why young teams don't win. JT's inexperience haunted this franchise for the next 5 years. I remember on draft night, I wanted Andre Miller... Damnit Cleveland picked before us. We had to settle for Lute Olsen's boy. The one thing about Arizona PGs is that they all have been systemized. That means that they know Arizona's system but more than likely, they weren't great PGs. Damon Stoudamire is prolly the best to come out of UA... and I don't think he learned much at UA. Anyway, JT went through several identity crisis. Mainly, he didn't know what he was. He began calling himself guard and making excuses for not being able to run the team. This was depressing after years of benefiting from the Robinson for Blaylock trade. Moreover, JT couldn't guard anybody. So after this trade... especially further killing the chemistry by bringing in JJ and JR... our offense became lost nomads...with no rhyme or reason. And Lenny Wilkens was chastised because he wanted to bring JT along slowly. I remember watching JT play and seeing him not be able to get the ball up the court. The worst time was either when we played Tim Hardaway, Nick Van Exel, or Mookie... When we played GS, Mookie came out with a vengence... I think he finished with 9 points, 19 assists, and 7 steals... It was a rough day for the rookie.

So what do you think? What was the worst move in Babcock era??

dakast · July 15, 2008

Maybe i'm wrong but, wan't Manning considered injury prone before he got to Atlanta?

Diesel · July 15, 2008

That's a good question.

I want to say, I don't think so. I remember, him signing the 1 year tender with Phoenix and that year having basically a career changing injury (Karma if you will).

But before that, I don't know. I mean, I know that he had never missed a major amount of games (more than 20) for any season before we got him.

frosgrim · July 15, 2008

I have to go with Nique for Manning hands down. That was just a dumb trade. From what I rememmber, Lenny was the reason this trade happened. Lenny wanted a guy that fit better into what Lenny thought was a better basketball system. Nique was not a motion offense player, Manning was the prototypical PF in the motion system. Nonetheless, it was beyond dumb.

Runner up- Steve Smith for JR Rider. I couldn't watch the Hawks after we got Rider. I hated that guy, still do. What a moronic trade. You just don't trade quality personality for a trouble maker, esp when that quality person can still play.

I actually think the Deke trade made some sense in the context that the Hawks were retooling the whole roster. Getting Kukoc was the key of that deal. Theo was a bum. Nazr was a good pickup. Didn't we get a 1st round pick out of that as well?

What is amazing is that Babcock made these moves after pulling off some of the best trades in Hawks history. Ala Andrew Lang for Laettner (great trade), the bag of chips we traded for Mookie (terrific), getting Steve Smith for ??, Grant Long for ??, Ty Corbin for ?? (was Ty a FA signing?).

coachx · July 15, 2008

Nique's rapid decline and one year contracts to rebuilding teams (no contenders) after the trade speaks for itself as to what the national (not local) consensus was on Nique at the time. Had Nique had a couple of more (or even 1 more) Allstar season I could see how this would have been a rip off but that is not reality.

For me the worst move was trading Paul Gasol for Reef ............hands down ! Now Reef is pratically out of the league or attempting a comeback with knee issues while Gasol is still 27 in his prime.

The Chris Crawford contract could be #2. Got a long term deal b/c he was the only guy on the roster young enough to run up down the court with the Knicks in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Mookie, Smitty, Corbin, and Mutumbo simply could not keep up with a young Houston, Sprewell, Camby, Childs, Ward. At least Grant Long played well for us that year in the playoffs.

NJHAWK · July 15, 2008

I just want to throw some random thoughts out there on this thread. Those trades Babcock made ( Mookie and Smitty) after we were swept by the Knicks were because he wanted to be more athletic because the Knicks were and it showed in that series. Thats why he brought in Rider because Rider although a fukkin crackpot was athletic and very seldom injured. He missed games here and there to suspension but was usually a healthy player. I think where Babcock errored here is he put too much stock into that one bad playoff series we had vs NY.

Manning was injury prone when the Hawks traded for him. I know he had a bad knee injury with the Clippers that caused him to a miss almost a whole year. That knee was in question when the Hawks traded for him. I think when we played Indiana what really hurt us was Kevin Willis being injured. Still this was the worst move ever by Babcock because he traded our franchise legend who had this team in 1st place for a guy who bolted after a half of a season. It is possible that Hawks ownership told him they werent going to pay Nique alot of money ahead of time which forced Petes hand. I doubt it though.

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Quote:

I just want to throw some random thoughts out there on this thread. Those trades Babcock made ( Mookie and Smitty) after we were swept by the Knicks were because he wanted to be more athletic because the Knicks were and it showed in that series.

Thats why he brought in Rider because Rider although a fukkin crackpot was athletic and very seldom injured. He missed games here and there to suspension but was usually a healthy player. I think where Babcock errored here is he put too much stock into that one bad playoff series we had vs NY.

Agree and Agree. Moreover, you really have to notice that it was a short season and we had some injuries. NY beat a shell of the Hawks. That team could have been competitive for 2 to 3 more years with some good moves. The other thing that people fail to bring up is that we had 4 1st round picks at our disposal that offseason. My main problem with the rebuild is the manner in which it was done. You totally clean house in a successful backcourt and you bring in a rookie and 2 head cases. We were destined to fall apart. Like I have said before... it taught me how important the PG position really is... watching JT flounder.

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Quote:

Nique's rapid decline and one year contracts to rebuilding teams (no contenders) after the trade speaks for itself as to what the national (not local) consensus was on Nique at the time. Had Nique had a couple of more (or even 1 more) Allstar season I could see how this would have been a rip off but that is not reality.

I think you have to notice though.. that we were 1st in the East with Nique. Moreover, Nique finished out that season very strong. 29/7/3 shooting 45% from the field is to die for in this league. Nique's "rapid decline" was in part due to Nique's declining PT. I don't know what happened in LAC land, but Nique went from playing 39 mpg to 31 after having that 29/7/3 season?

Many believe that the Nique trade costed us a shot at getting out of the second round. I believe that. I think a Nique led Hawks would have easily beaten the Pacers. Manning was just not the guy who could carry a team and make everybody better. Nique was. I don't think Manning had a bad series with the Ps... but he didn't make his team better.

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Quote:

For me the worst move was trading Paul Gasol for Reef ............hands down ! Now Reef is pratically out of the league or attempting a comeback with knee issues while Gasol is still 27 in his prime.

Well, for me... It's not. We were not going to pick Gasol anyway. We were picking Battier. Babcock said it on Hawksquawk himself. He said, we'd have taken Battier based on his strong workout and college career. Moreover, I was not unhappy with Reef. Reef needed Lenny coaching. Reef was a guaranteed 20/10 every night. We put him with a coach who couldn't coach, A PG who couldn't run an offense, A Center who was soft and a Sf who was a ball hog that didn't play defense. What really did you expect.

Swish · July 15, 2008

Agreed. Reef was not all that bad. In fact, he was pretty good at times. Certainly you can't really fuss about him over Gasol.

coachx · July 15, 2008

Quote:

Agreed. Reef was not all that bad. In fact, he was pretty good at times. Certainly you can't really fuss about him over Gasol.

The worst mistake a franchise can make is picking the wrong player to build around. That is exactly what we did with Reef. You cannot have a succesful rebuild without the right guy. BK's pick of JJ has proved to be much better then Kasten's pick of Reef.

Gasol was 20 and Reef was 25 at the time of trade. Supposedly Reef would keep us competitive and allowed us to make the famous "Playoff Guarantee"...LOL For this trade to equal out Reef and company needed at least one play off appearance. (He could make the Grizz competitive with a young Bibby so how could he accomplish that here ?) Gasol took a similarly talented Grizz team to the playoffs 3 times and Reef did it zero with the Hawks....the only season Reef was truely better then Gasol was Gasol's rookie season in 2001-02. Ever since then Gasol has been the better player. Now was in scrub and the other is a border line star.

Reef WAS not bad at all but he is was not and is not as good as Gasol:

Gasol's stats since the trade:

Career Season Averages

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

01-02 MEM 82 79 36.7 0.518 0.200 0.709 2.9 6.0 8.9 2.7 0.5 2.1 2.73 2.40 17.6

02-03 MEM 82 82 36.0 0.510 0.100 0.736 2.3 6.4 8.8 2.8 0.4 1.8 2.60 2.70 19.0

03-04 MEM 78 78 31.5 0.482 0.267 0.714 2.6 5.1 7.7 2.5 0.6 1.7 2.40 2.40 17.7

04-05 MEM 56 53 32.0 0.514 0.167 0.768 2.3 5.0 7.3 2.4 0.7 1.7 2.45 2.60 17.8

05-06 MEM 80 80 39.2 0.503 0.250 0.689 2.4 6.5 8.9 4.6 0.6 1.9 2.94 2.30 20.4

06-07 MEM 59 59 36.2 0.538 0.273 0.748 2.5 7.3 9.8 3.4 0.5 2.1 2.75 2.30 20.8

07-08 MEM 39 39 36.7 0.501 0.267 0.819 2.4 6.4 8.8 3.0 0.4 1.4 2.05 2.20 18.9

07-08 LAL 27 27 34.0 0.589 0.000 0.789 2.3 5.6 7.8 3.5 0.5 1.6 1.63 2.00 18.8

Career -- 503 497 35.4 0.513 0.227 0.733 2.5 6.1 8.6 3.1 0.5 1.8 2.55 2.40 18.8

01-02 ATL 77 77 38.7 0.461 0.300 0.801 2.6 6.5 9.0 3.1 1.3 1.0 3.25 2.80 21.2

02-03 ATL 81 81 38.1 0.478 0.350 0.841 2.2 6.2 8.4 3.0 1.1 0.5 2.62 3.00 19.9

03-04 ATL 53 53 36.9 0.485 0.217 0.880 2.7 6.7 9.3 2.4 0.8 0.4 2.47 2.80 20.1

03-04 POR 32 3 22.8 0.447 0.364 0.832 1.5 3.0 4.5 1.5 0.8 0.6 1.66 2.30 10.0

04-05 POR 54 49 34.6 0.503 0.385 0.866 2.3 5.0 7.3 2.1 0.9 0.5 2.17 2.80 16.8

05-06 SAC 72 30 27.2 0.525 0.227 0.784 1.5 3.5 5.0 2.1 0.7 0.6 1.50 3.20 12.3

06-07 SAC 80 45 25.2 0.474 0.150 0.726 1.5 3.5 5.0 1.4 0.7 0.5 1.45 3.00 9.9

07-08 SAC 6 0 8.5 0.214 0.000 1.000 1.0 0.7 1.7 0.7 0.2 0.0 0.17 1.50 1.7

AVG since .480 6.0 15.7

Since the trade (not even counting the 07-08 season where Reef only played 6 games) Reef averaged only 15.7 ppg on 48 % FG with 6.0 rpg and less then 1 bpg. Played in 50 less games then Gasol.

Meanwhile this is what Gasol has done:

18.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.8 bpg, .513 FG %. Played in 50 more games then Reef.

Now Reef is 32 and Gasol is 27.

Draw your own conclusion if that is not a "bad deal."

Not to mention we have not had a talented 7 footer with offensive scoring ability since Kevin Willis. Gasol could have been that guy for 12 years.

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Just like we passed over CP3, we were going to pass over Gasol. Our choice would have been Battier. Babcock liked the Seniors.

Quote:

Battier's stock may be on the rise however. He reportedly bested Michigan State guard Jason Richardson in the Atlanta Hawks "Superman" test -- where players basically continue to dunk the ball until they can't get off the ground any more. And at the NBA physicals, Battier scored highest on the lateral agility test. "People checked their watches and said, "Is that right?' '' Battier said. "I'm not the sloth that I'm sometimes made out to be. I do have some athletic ability. Obviously, I'm not a Vince Carter or a Kobe Bryant, but I'm athletic enough to get the job done."

coachx · July 15, 2008

I realize that Battier was Babcock's guy (another one of his MANY misguided draft evaluations).

However, I also realize that we actually did pick Gasol (BK's guy) and immediately traded him for Reef. So to me it fits in the thread as one of Babcocks worst trades for a variety of reasons.............the Battier thing makes it even worse but I would rather have Battier then Reef right now.

Diesel · July 15, 2008

Quote:

I realize that Battier was Babcock's guy (another one of his MANY misguided draft evaluations).

However, I also realize that we actually did pick Gasol (BK's guy) and immediately traded him for Reef. So to me it fits in the thread as one of Babcocks worst trades for a variety of reasons.............the Battier thing makes it even worse but I would rather have Battier then Reef right now.

You know that the deal was made days before the draft, they had to wait because you can't give up your own first rounder in 2 consecutive drafts. I think we had given up our first rounder the year before to LAC.

Antmillennium · July 15, 2008

This shouldn't even be up for debate. Trading 'Nique for Danny Manning was the most asinine thing that the Hawks have EVER done. Not only did they trade 'Nique, but the Hawks also GAVE the clippers a 1st round pick if I'm not mistaken, as if Manning was a better player than 'Nique. If anything, the Hawks should have been the team getting the 1st round pick. I truly believe that if the Babcock and Kasten would have left good enough alone and not screwed with the team, that the Hawks would played for the championship that year. 'Nique was on a mission. Furthermore, I didn't even know that Koncak was getting paid more than 'Nique until this post. If that's actually true, then Babcock is truly one of the dumbest people to ever step on a basketball floor. There is no way that you can EVER justify a player like John Koncak getting paid more than a player like 'Nique.

Packfill · July 15, 2008