We have closet Smith haters here!

[exodus]

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that described him as a top 5 TALENT but that they also said his attitude/work ethic/rawness, etc would prevent him from going that high in the draft. I also seem to remember Chad Ford initially thinking that Smoove would go top 5, then he thought he would fall to us at #6 to us and then he thought he might slip all the way to us at #17.

Again, I could be wrong but I thought several profiles had him just behind Howard, Okafor, Livingston and Gordon from a TALENT standpoint and AHEAD of Deng, Iggy, Chillz, Harris, etc.

Smith was rated highly in terms of athleticism but people questioned his baskeball skills in addition to his attitude.

There have been plenty of guys who were picked high because of their athleticism who didn't pan out because they had no heart. Stromile was picked at 2 and Miles was picked at 3. However they had no heart which Smith has in spades.

You can't measure heart and will and that (in addition to his athleticism) is why Smith has been productive. His baskeball skills are still a work in progress after 4 years but his desire is what carries him. Nobody could have known on draft day how much desire Smith has because he has that Andrew Jones type of body language.

[exodus]

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'Overachieving." To me, when you "overachieve," you accomplish something that you did not have the ABILITY to accomplish (or at least no one THOUGHT you had the ability to accomplish). Smoove always had the ability to accomplish everything he has done so far. The fact that he has done so means to me that he has ACHIEVED what he was always quite capable of achieving. Honestly, Smoove would have to become damn close to LeBron before I think he is overachieving. I think he has that kind of God -given talent.

An example of OVERACHIEVING would be Mario West becoming an NBA player based on his sheer desire and hustle.

What basketball skills did Smith come into the NBA with other than blocking shots?

[crimedog]

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As the focus of his team's offense it's only natural that he's going to turn the ball over. People don't complain because Smith is shooting 46%, people complain because he thinks he's a jumpshooter when he's not. His % would skyrocket if he just played in the post. However, that's not the point. Like northcyde said, it's all about how the players fit (theoretically, in Kaman's case). Kaman made big strides this year, and the reason he appeared to be "unfocused" is because he's dyslexic. Even with his faults, you cannot deny his value, and downplay him as if Josh Smith is so much better than him.

For one, he's not dyslexic and if he was it wouldn't really matter outside of him having trouble reading the scoreboard or something.

Two, he's as much the team's primary offensive weapon as Smith is... he scored 7 ppg less than Maggette. Kaman also has shot selection problems.

Kaman had big strides the first year he didn't play next to Brand, similarly, Josh was a 20-10 player last season for the last couple of months when Joe was out.

I'm not saying he is garbage. I'm saying that its stupid to complain about Smith's TOs, shooting %, and focus and then say we'd be better with a guy who is turnover prone, low% for his position, and has trouble with focus because he processes things too quickly.

You are most certainly allowed to criticize Smith but all the things Smith gets criticized for are problems with Kaman too.

[Admin]

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17. ATLANTA HAWKS

Josh Smith

OAK HILL ACADEMY | FORWARD

HEIGHT: 6-8 | WEIGHT: 220 | AGE: 18

How does a guy we had ranked sixth fall all the way to 17? A lot has to do with fit and position. The Hawks will absolutely consider him at six, but after that there's a long string of teams that have no room for a player like Smith. He could easily go No. 5 to Washington or No. 6 for Atlanta. But if he doesn't? He could be in for a free-fall unless Andriuskevicius and Perovic drop out.

Hawksquawk Link

[Zone034life]

Good Post!

[thescout5]

I am not a Smith hater I just don't think the team with Chills and Smith back will be assembled to do much in the future the way it is setup now. Smih is a tweener,Marvin better get better or he'll be a disappointment,Bibby isn't the point guard of the futre law is and JJ is the one player you can depend on most of the time. What kind of team does that get you against the elite teams?

People are going to point to the Celtic series believing the Hawk's will be competitive with the elite teams has anyone taken into account perhaps the Celtic's were not mentally focused vs the Hawks until it came crunch time? The Hawk's won in Atlanta great but they got absolutley got crushed in Boston. Boston was the champion this past year however there will be other teams that will get better and could be the force Boston was last year and that is just in the Eastern Conference. Can the Hawk's play consistently and beat the top teams in the West?

This is the beauty of sports one year a team or teams has the right personel other times they have an off year. How many years have we been rebuilding the Hawk's? I hope I am wrong but without any changes and just resigning the same players and a year of maturation fans want to annoint the Hawk's has a team that will compete year after yr vs the better teams. What if your wrong and the team that is present will reach a certain level and continue to lose in the playoffs kind of like the Hawk's did in the mid 90's?

Watching the Hawk's vs the Celtics it was clear the Hawk's got continually pounded on the boards even with Smoove. Who is going to get those rebounds in the future? There won't be any big men come the Hawk's way unless they trade for one. They'll draft to low and free agents won't sign with the Hawk's. It takes a compelte team to play with the elite teams consistently not just one series like the Hawk's did vs the Celtic's. Smoove can't guard Garnett or any real big players.He'll get better but still when you have to face the Rasheed Wallace's and Garnett's and the big players in the East how is Smoove going to contain them? This is the reason I am saying small boy isn't going to get you to the ultimate goal of winning championships. Now if you could package Marvin and some others and keep Smoove great but Smoove probably has the most value to other teams other than JJ.

People knock Kaman because he has one good year what if he is the real deal alot of you Kaman haters are going to wish you had got him when you had the chance. Then again if I am the Clippers why would I get rid of a 7 ft center scoring almost 16 pts a game,2.7 blks,12.7 rebounds and pair him with Camby to give matchup problems to the elite teams in the West.

[crimedog]

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This is the beauty of sports one year a team or teams has the right personel other times they have an off year. How many years have we been rebuilding the Hawk's? I hope I am wrong but without any changes and just resigning the same players and a year of maturation fans want to annoint the Hawk's has a team that will compete year after yr vs the better teams. What if your wrong and the team that is present will reach a certain level and continue to lose in the playoffs kind of like the Hawk's did in the mid 90's?

Watching the Hawk's vs the Celtics it was clear the Hawk's got continually pounded on the boards even with Smoove. Who is going to get those rebounds in the future? There won't be any big men come the Hawk's way unless they trade for one. They'll draft to low and free agents won't sign with the Hawk's. It takes a compelte team to play with the elite teams consistently not just one series like the Hawk's did vs the Celtic's. Smoove can't guard Garnett or any real big players.He'll get better but still when you have to face the Rasheed Wallace's and Garnett's and the big players in the East how is Smoove going to contain them? This is the reason I am saying small boy isn't going to get you to the ultimate goal of winning championships. Now if you could package Marvin and some others and keep Smoove great but Smoove probably has the most value to other teams other than JJ.

People knock Kaman because he has one good year what if he is the real deal alot of you Kaman haters are going to wish you had got him when you had the chance. Then again if I am the Clippers why would I get rid of a 7 ft center scoring almost 16 pts a game,2.7 blks,12.7 rebounds and pair him with Camby to give matchup problems to the elite teams in the West.

Just so you know, Smith did a better job on KG than Sheed or Ben Wallace.

Beyond that, you say that Smith can't handle a KG, does that mean Horford can? We put Smith on KG for a reason and it wasn't because we were scared of Perkins.

You think we need to trade Smith because we won't win a chip with him? Kaman isn't the "missing peice" that will get us a chip. If you want to trade Smith for that kind of player sure, wait til a team with the number 1 overall pick wants Smith and hope you luck out. Kaman doesn't really fit the definition of "championship cornerstone" does he?

[Chris18]

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I am not a Smith hater I just don't think the team with Chills and Smith back will be assembled to do much in the future the way it is setup now. Smih is a tweener,Marvin better get better or he'll be a disappointment,Bibby isn't the point guard of the futre law is and JJ is the one player you can depend on most of the time. What kind of team does that get you against the elite teams?

People are going to point to the Celtic series believing the Hawk's will be competitive with the elite teams has anyone taken into account perhaps the Celtic's were not mentally focused vs the Hawks until it came crunch time? The Hawk's won in Atlanta great but they got absolutley got crushed in Boston. Boston was the champion this past year however there will be other teams that will get better and could be the force Boston was last year and that is just in the Eastern Conference. Can the Hawk's play consistently and beat the top teams in the West?

This is the beauty of sports one year a team or teams has the right personel other times they have an off year. How many years have we been rebuilding the Hawk's? I hope I am wrong but without any changes and just resigning the same players and a year of maturation fans want to annoint the Hawk's has a team that will compete year after yr vs the better teams. What if your wrong and the team that is present will reach a certain level and continue to lose in the playoffs kind of like the Hawk's did in the mid 90's?

Watching the Hawk's vs the Celtics it was clear the Hawk's got continually pounded on the boards even with Smoove. Who is going to get those rebounds in the future? There won't be any big men come the Hawk's way unless they trade for one. They'll draft to low and free agents won't sign with the Hawk's. It takes a compelte team to play with the elite teams consistently not just one series like the Hawk's did vs the Celtic's. Smoove can't guard Garnett or any real big players.He'll get better but still when you have to face the Rasheed Wallace's and Garnett's and the big players in the East how is Smoove going to contain them? This is the reason I am saying small boy isn't going to get you to the ultimate goal of winning championships. Now if you could package Marvin and some others and keep Smoove great but Smoove probably has the most value to other teams other than JJ.

People knock Kaman because he has one good year what if he is the real deal alot of you Kaman haters are going to wish you had got him when you had the chance. Then again if I am the Clippers why would I get rid of a 7 ft center scoring almost 16 pts a game,2.7 blks,12.7 rebounds and pair him with Camby to give matchup problems to the elite teams in the West.

You do realize that Smoove guarded KG the best out of anyone in the playoffs.

[PureGreatness]

do i have to do the calling out of the posters wanting smoove out? dont make me do it

[Watchman]

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I don't think there are any Smoove haters here. However if the choice is giving him a huge deal that hamstrings the team for years, letting him walk and receiving nothing in return. or getting the most we can get out of him in a sign and trade I think if you are a Hawks fan the 3rd option has to be considered.

Exactly. Good post TMAC13.

[thescout5]

And Smoove is the answer to a championship?

[crimedog]

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And Smoove is the answer to a championship?

No, but if Kaman isn't going to be the cornerstone of a championship and Smith isn't either (and neither is Al, Joe, or Marv by the way), that what do we gain by trading Smith for Kaman beyond a less exciting team?

You brought up championships, I merely pointed out that teams don't get championships because they have players that conform to some definition of standard that you have in your mind. The championship Pistons had a 6'7 guy playing center and a beanpole (Sheed) manning dudes up in the post.

My point was that if you want to trade Smith to win a title, I'm all for it but that move won't be a SnT for Kaman so why push it so hard?

[NJHAWK]

I am not a pure Smith hater but there were a few times last season where I thought I had enough of his song and dance and hoped for an off season trade. Im not a big fan of Kaman but there are some deals that could be out there if Sund listens. Im not against bringing Smoove back but Im also not against moving him in the right deal.

[BossTweed]

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I don't think there are any Smoove haters here. However if the choice is giving him a huge deal that hamstrings the team for years, letting him walk and receiving nothing in return. or getting the most we can get out of him in a sign and trade I think if you are a Hawks fan the 3rd option has to be considered.

Seriously. I think this is what most people are thinking. When Smith had options and we thought he might get a Max offer from the Clippers, I also would rather see us trade him for equal value or as close as we can get to it.

Now that we are past that, I'm still afraid of our front office screwing up by offering Smith less than he could get from other teams, and him wanting to be traded.

Plus, how much fun is it to sit around here saying "we're going to sign Josh Smith and everything will be the same as last year". It's much more interesting to speculate on the "worst case" situations that would mean some sort of interesting trade. It doesn't mean they hate Smith.

[mrhonline]

I'm a closet Claxton hater.

There, I said it. It does feel good to get that off my chest.

[thescout5]

The problem I have with the Hawk's is how do you outrebound bigger teams? We got killed vs the Celtics how would you outrebound the teams from the West? Smoove gets 7 boards a game who is going to take up the slack of being outrebounded in the front court. If you can't out rebound the other team your chances are minimal your going to win.

Probably the only way to get a big is for Marvin to have a better year and package him with others to a team that has an over abundance of big men maybe Portland, but thats after this year. Right now the Hawk's don't have the pieces to trade other than Smoove and they won't trade him since he is a crowd pleaser, a home boy, and that word potential.

Other than keeping Smoove and Chills what new players are the Hawk's getting to reduce the difference between the elite teams vs the current Hawk's? One year of matutation and having Bibby a full year isn't going to do it.The Hawk's should be adding to their talent base especially with no first rounder this year. Of course now we have cap issues so we are stuck with the team we have while other teams get better adding to their talent.

then we have the genius Woody who can't coach himself out of a paper bag.We have had numerous post on Woody yet many fans believe this team will become the 2nd coming of the Celtics with Mchale,Bird and Parrish overnight. How many times have many of us throwen our hands up saying why does Smoove take so many 3 pt shots, where is the passing at on the team, why can't we rebound better,why can't Marvin get better ...why why why and yet many fans believe all this will be solved starting this upcoming year when the Hawk's will take the NBA by storm and win 50 + games.

Give me a break this will be like 5 years of rebuilding and there just are to many questions with the current talent base to become an elite team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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do i have to do the calling out of the posters wanting smoove out? dont make me do it

I dare you to do it, because I don't think you will.

No . . . I Double Dog Dare you to do it.

Matter of fact . . . I TRIPLE DOG DARE you to do it!!!!

[crimedog]

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The problem I have with the Hawk's is how do you outrebound bigger teams? We got killed vs the Celtics how would you outrebound the teams from the West? Smoove gets 7 boards a game who is going to take up the slack of being outrebounded in the front court. If you can't out rebound the other team your chances are minimal your going to win.

Probably the only way to get a big is for Marvin to have a better year and package him with others to a team that has an over abundance of big men maybe Portland, but thats after this year. Right now the Hawk's don't have the pieces to trade other than Smoove and they won't trade him since he is a crowd pleaser, a home boy, and that word potential.

Other than keeping Smoove and Chills what new players are the Hawk's getting to reduce the difference between the elite teams vs the current Hawk's? One year of matutation and having Bibby a full year isn't going to do it.The Hawk's should be adding to their talent base especially with no first rounder this year. Of course now we have cap issues so we are stuck with the team we have while other teams get better adding to their talent.

then we have the genius Woody who can't coach himself out of a paper bag.We have had numerous post on Woody yet many fans believe this team will become the 2nd coming of the Celtics with Mchale,Bird and Parrish overnight. How many times have many of us throwen our hands up saying why does Smoove take so many 3 pt shots, where is the passing at on the team, why can't we rebound better,why can't Marvin get better ...why why why and yet many fans believe all this will be solved starting this upcoming year when the Hawk's will take the NBA by storm and win 50 + games.

Give me a break this will be like 5 years of rebuilding and there just are to many questions with the current talent base to become an elite team.

Our starting frontcourt actually does fine in defensive rebounding, by rebound rate (% of defensive rebounds collected), Smith is a better than avg. D rebounder for a PF and Al is a better than avg. D rebounder for a C. The problem is that our backup big men (post trade) were Zaza and Marv who are near the bottom in terms of D rebounding for PFs and Cs resepectively. Also, Childress plays 30 minutes a night and is bottom 5 in terms of defensive rebounding for SFs and top 5 for offensive rebounding which is a big reason why we are a great offensive rebounding team and poor defensive one.

As far as not adding peices that will make us elite. No we haven't, but trading our second best player for an inferior player (even if that player is pretty good) isn't going to put us in that catergory. I'm all for listening to big, Boston-type, overnight contender schemes. I can also listen to blow-it-all-up and start from scratch ones. I'd prefer not to delve into these lateral-at-best trade discussions though.

[Peoriabird]

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The problem I have with the Hawk's is how do you outrebound bigger teams? We got killed vs the Celtics how would you outrebound the teams from the West? Smoove gets 7 boards a game who is going to take up the slack of being outrebounded in the front court. If you can't out rebound the other team your chances are minimal your going to win.

Give me a break this will be like 5 years of rebuilding and there just are to many questions with the current talent base to become an elite team.

Now is it becoming clearer to you Dolfan23?

[Peoriabird]

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I am not a pure Smith hater

but there were a few times last season where I thought I had enough of his song and dance and hoped for an off season trade.

Im not a big fan of Kaman but there are some deals that could be out there if Sund listens. Im not against bringing Smoove back but Im also not against moving him in the right deal.

So I wasn't too far off base. At times you wanted him traded for a ham sandwich didn't you?