Ripping the current Hawks - - WOW!!

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

PG: Bibby vs any PG on that roster -

advantage Bibby

G: JJ vs Roy -

advantage JJ

F: Marvin vs Webster -

advantage Marvin

PF: Smith vs Aldridge -

advantage Smith

C: Horford vs Oden -

advantage Horford . . . until Oden proves otherwise and until he can stay healthy

Bench:

advantage Portland

So you wouldn't trade Bibby for Bayless or Horford for Oden (disregarding salaries)?

Given that Roy made the All-Star team in his second season in a much tougher conference the gap between him and JJ (if there is one) isn't very big.

the 3 spot is their weakness but it is also the easiest spot to fill on a roster.

The old misdirection, the oldest trick in the book. Can't compare stats this time to support your claim so you go with end around! Oden had proven a thing in the NBA. Heck he hasn't even proven that he is healthy yet so no, I wouldn't trade Horford for Oden!

[crimedog]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

PG: Bibby vs any PG on that roster -

advantage Bibby

G: JJ vs Roy -

advantage JJ

F: Marvin vs Webster -

advantage Marvin

PF: Smith vs Aldridge -

advantage Smith

C: Horford vs Oden -

advantage Horford . . . until Oden proves otherwise and until he can stay healthy

Bench:

advantage Portland

So you wouldn't trade Bibby for Bayless or Horford for Oden (disregarding salaries)?

Given that Roy made the All-Star team in his second season in a much tougher conference the gap between him and JJ (if there is one) isn't very big.

the 3 spot is their weakness but it is also the easiest spot to fill on a roster.

I like how "bench" is treated like one player too. The fact is that I think JJ is probably a little better than Roy (even though Roy had better numbers, Joe was injured or something) and Smith is probably better than LMA, I'd give Portland the advantage at those positions because whoever they have playing backup at the 2 and 4 beat whoever we have (no one).

[exodus]

Quote:

---

I wouldn't trade Horford for Oden!

I think that pretty much sums it up right there.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

I think that pretty much sums it up right there.

O.K. I'll play! What do you think Oden's 1st year stats will be?

[Hawk88]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

PG: Bibby vs any PG on that roster -

advantage Bibby

G: JJ vs Roy -

advantage JJ

F: Marvin vs Webster -

advantage Marvin

PF: Smith vs Aldridge -

advantage Smith

C: Horford vs Oden -

advantage Horford . . . until Oden proves otherwise and until he can stay healthy

Bench:

advantage Portland

I was going to do the same but obviously that poster has the grass is greener syndrome so it would not have convinced him. Even if you pulled up the stats, he wouldn't accept them.

Its not all stats....

Bibby the edge over their PG's. No way. Bayless was like pick 4 in the draft. You think Bibby is worth that. Come on.

JJ over Roy, I will give you that one. But Roy is very strong and Roys' stats are just slightly less that JJ's. But JJ is better.

Marvin over Martell? Not sure sure, Marvin is a spaz and can't shoot a 3pt shot. At least Webster can shoot the 3. Neither is so hot.

PF, J. Smith over Aldredge. Can you say homer, J. Smith isn't even a true PF, and can't shoot well enough for the SF position. I would take Aldridge, easy.

Center- I love Horford and their are questions of Oden's health but Oden has a chance to be special. Oden is a true center. But I don't see Al overtaking Oden yet. I could be wrong.

Bench...Hawks have little Portland has a lot.

Portland was 500 in the west, Hawks 5 games under .500 in the East. Without Oden.

I don't see us anywhere near the trailblazers.

Hawk88

[frosgrim]

I agree with most of those comparisons, except I might give Outlaw the advantage over Marvin for a couple of reasons.

1. Outlaw is more agressive (at least in the two games vs the Hawks last year than Marvin)

2. Outlaw seems to be more fluid and graceful in his movements than MW and can jump out of the building.

Marvin is a better shooter though.

In all, until Oden proves that he can 1) stay healthy and 2) paly in the NBA, its very difficult to make the comparison with Horford. The other centers on the T-B roster are not in the same class as Horf in terms of basketball skills

The Hawks lost games to the TBs because of Woodson and his lack of developing/trusting his bench.

Woodson lost at least 5 games for the Hawks last season and one 2 due to coaching. More infuriating is that Woodson makes adjustments to his game plan too late (see the Philly games at the end of last season. If Woody had gone to the zone after the half in the first game, we would have won it). Face it folks Woodson costs the Hawks more games than he wins. The 3 loss deficit would have gotten the Hawks a better 1st round match up than the Celtics possibly.

Nonetheless. GreyMule is correct in his lampooning. The vast majority of the player critiques are over the top. However, one can't take out the effect of poor coaching on the development of the team. Woodson has a lot to prove this season. I hope he proves all of us Woody "haters" wrong and does a brilliant job- I am not holding my breath about that happening though.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I think that pretty much sums it up right there.

O.K. I'll play! What do you think Oden's 1st year stats will be?

They will be better than 10/10/1.5 that is for sure unless he plays only 20 minutes a game.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I think that pretty much sums it up right there.

O.K. I'll play! What do you think Oden's 1st year stats will be?

They will be better than 10/10/1.5 that is for sure unless he plays only 20 minutes a game.

O.K. We shall see! this post is earmarked

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

So you wouldn't trade Bibby for Bayless or Horford for Oden (disregarding salaries)?

No.

As players, give me Bibby over Bayless. Bayless may be real good in 3 years, but right now, I'd much rather have Bibby running the show. People thought Conley and Acie would have no trouble transitioning to the NBA, and they struggled in their rookie year. I expect Bayless to do the same. Bayless may not even be in the starting lineup to begin the year.

And Oden? Hell no. The same worries people have with Acie and his propensity to get injured, are the same concerns you have to have with Oden. I kind of agree with NJHAWK, when he says that at best, Oden will have a career similar to Dikembe Mutumbo. He may put up numbers slightly better than Dikembe, but his defensive numbers should be comparable to Dikembe's, if he stays healthy.

Quote:

---

Given that Roy made the All-Star team in his second season in a much tougher conference the gap between him and JJ (if there is one) isn't very big.

I agree. I love Brandon Roy's game. That being said, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose, I'm taking JJ. He's just a little more versatile of a player than Roy. To me, picking between JJ and Roy, is like picking between Deron and Paul. Paul may get all of the accolades, but that doesn't mean that Deron is far below him, because he isn't.

the 3 spot is their weakness but it is also the easiest spot to fill on a roster.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

So you wouldn't trade Bibby for Bayless or Horford for Oden (disregarding salaries)?

No.

As players, give me Bibby over Bayless. Bayless may be real good in 3 years, but right now, I'd much rather have Bibby running the show. People thought Conley and Acie would have no trouble transitioning to the NBA, and they struggled in their rookie year. I expect Bayless to do the same. Bayless may not even be in the starting lineup to begin the year.

And Oden? Hell no. The same worries people have with Acie and his propensity to get injured, are the same concerns you have to have with Oden. I kind of agree with NJHAWK, when he says that at best, Oden will have a career similar to Dikembe Mutumbo. He may put up numbers slightly better than Dikembe, but his defensive numbers should be comparable to Dikembe's, if he stays healthy.

Quote:

---

Given that Roy made the All-Star team in his second season in a much tougher conference the gap between him and JJ (if there is one) isn't very big.

I agree. I love Brandon Roy's game. That being said, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose, I'm taking JJ. He's just a little more versatile of a player than Roy. To me, picking between JJ and Roy, is like picking between Deron and Paul. Paul may get all of the accolades, but that doesn't mean that Deron is far below him, because he isn't.

the 3 spot is their weakness but it is also the easiest spot to fill on a roster.

So its not looking like the clear cut slam dunk people make it out to be when you really analyze it closely huh? Just another example of self hate from the so call Hawk fanum.

[exodus]

It is amazing how people can be so homerific. this reminds me of all the threads last summer comparing Horford to All-Stars like Alonzo. Alonzo averaged 20/10 with 3 blocks as a rookie. Horford isn't in the same league as Zo or Oden.

This is going to be a funny bump next season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

I like how "bench" is treated like one player too. The fact is that I think JJ is probably a little better than Roy (even though Roy had better numbers, Joe was injured or something) and Smith is probably better than LMA, I'd give Portland the advantage at those positions because whoever they have playing backup at the 2 and 4 beat whoever we have (no one).

I count the bench separately because you can't give the bench equal weight along the starters.

Just look at the breakdown. One of the main reasons why Portland is cnsidered to have a strong bench, is that they have very few standout players within the starting lineup that is deserving of playing major minutes.

At PG, they don't have a guy worthy of commanding 30+ minutes a game, because neither of those guys are head and shoulders better than the other . . . hence . . . the reason they got Bayless.

At SF, it's the same thing. Same thing at center.

As for their bench, Outlaw and Frye are very good players to bring off the bench. Everybody else has their moments, like most bench players.

A bench is important, but if you don't have good starters across the board, you'll still have problems. That was my main beef with AJ running the point. A lot of times, he was the weakest link. And the position as a whole was a weak link because of Acie's injury situation.

When people assess lineups, you need to assess the people that actually play, not just the bodies on the roster.

At PG, we have a combo of Bibby and Acie as dessert

At SG, it's usually JJ, with a tall glass of Chill

At SF, it's a combo of Marvin and Chill as the appetizer

At PF, it's Smith, with a side order of Horford and Marvin

At C, it's Horford and Zaza in small portions.

That's the group we roll with.

Now if you want to add a Jeremy Richardson in a discussion on who is better overall at SG, knock yourself out. But keep in mind that he doesn't play nearly often enough to even be discussed.

[Traceman]

I agree with you that Oden is a superior talent to Al (if healthy). I don't think people realize how good of an athlete Oden is because he was hurt for all of his freshman season. If he comes back healthy from that microfracture surgery with minimal effects, he is going to be in the Dwight Howard category of "beastness" in short order. He's not the athlete that Howard is but he is a MAN. It will likely take him a couple of years to adjust to the NBA game (as it did for Howard) but I think he will DEFINITELY put up better numbers than Big Al did across the board as a rookie.

As for the Hawks and Blazers, the closeness of the two games we played last year are a testament to just how close the teams are. Both games resulted in heartbreaking losses for us but we could have EASILY won both games. Them adding Oden & Bayless and us adding Bibby, I might give them an edge overall. That said, I think our starters are slightly better RIGHT NOW at PG, SG, SF & PF.

[Dsinner]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Umm, did you notice we have the same coach with an even less expereinced staff?

Yeah, we were a differenct team with Bibby alright. Our defense went from below average to horrid. I still can't find any logic as to how some of you think we'll be so much better this year in, what should be, a much deeper conference. Same team, same coach (staff is worse) does not equate to more wins. Not in any significant amount anyway.

Maybe it me but I don't think that the above statements qualifies you as an objective person taking a wait and see approach.

Um reading is fundamental? I said "I'll believe it when I see it." And yes, that does qualify me. I never said I'd objectively wait and see. Do you not see the difference?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'll tell you something else too Peoria. The real difference between the Hawks and Blazers last year were:

1) they beat us twice in 2 very close games

If we sweep those 2 games, we have identical records. Plus, people never want to factor in that the Hawks, after they clinched the playoff berth, played their bench much more than they would've normaly played. We easily take that Miami team out, had we had the normal rotation playing in the game.

But people want to may like their 41 win season was significantly better than our 37 win season. It's like saying a 60 win team is significantly better than a 56 win team, or that a 23 win team is significantly better than a 19 win team.

[crimedog]

Quote:

---

I agree with you that Oden is a superior talent to Al (if healthy).

How would that even be debatable? As a one handed freshman he was a better offensive and defensive player over the course of the year and absolutely dominated the biggest head to head matchup of the season.

You can say that you would take Al because you are concerned about Oden's knee but I don't think "superior talent" is really debatable.

[jhay610]

Quote:

---

At PG, we have a combo of Bibby and Acie as dessert

At SG, it's usually JJ, with a tall glass of Chill

At SF, it's a combo of Marvin and Chill as the appetizer

At PF, it's Smith, with a side order of Horford and Marvin

At C, it's Horford and Zaza in small portions.

That's the group we roll with.

wtf

[Cwell]

Quote:

---

The Bulls have had TWO #1 overall picks - Brand and Rose, THREE #2 overall picks Williams, Chandler & Aldridge (who was traded for Thomas), ONE #3 overall pick - Gordon and TWO #4 overall picks - Fizer and Curry.

Since '99, the Bulls have had EIGHT top 5 picks - Brand, Fizer, Curry, Chandler, Williams, Gordon, Thomas and Rose. We have had 4 (Horford, Marvin, Shelden and what should have been Gasol).

um I wasn't going back that far because we haven't been rebuilding since like 03 or 04.and Rose hasn't played yet so this years draft doesn't count.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At PG, we have a combo of Bibby and Acie as dessert

At SG, it's usually JJ, with a tall glass of Chill

At SF, it's a combo of Marvin and Chill as the appetizer

At PF, it's Smith, with a side order of Horford and Marvin

At C, it's Horford and Zaza in small portions.

That's the group we roll with.

wtf

WTF you mean wtf?

Is that not our rotation?

[exodus]

Quote:

---

But people want to may like their 41 win season was significantly better than our 37 win season.

Because it was.

You talk about our rotation the last two games as if Miami and orlando had something to play for. They didn't.

Funny how you don't take into account that the Blazers played in the West and the Hawks in the dismal East. If the Blazers played in the east the Hawks don't make the playoffs.