Why Overpay For Smoove...

[Johnnybravo4]

Are you forgetting there were 2 other lottery picks in that College team.

And he average 10/10 being the 4 or 5th option, those players came in and were the man instantly.

He was the 4th option on his college team as well. How many all stars were 4th options on their college teams?

[crimedog]

Smoove is a better player overall than Horford. He gets solid stats all across the board, but plays crazy and wild, turns the ball over, takes bad shots and is a tweener(no true positon).

AL Horford is a better PF and a better C than Smoove, he does the little things, team leader, plays within the system and itc.

With that said i would take Horford over Smoove anyday of the week.

WOuld you rather have Duncan, Brand, Boozer type of player or Ak47, GWallace, Smoove type of player?

Dncan, Brand, and Boozer? Dude, those guys are just more offensively talented than Al. More offensively talented in college too. Add to that that Duncan and Brand are elite level shotblockers.

It is a HUGE stretch to lump Al with those guys, his rookie year was a lot closer to a guy like Okafor or Zydrunas Ilgauskus than to any of those guys. I know we all love the toughness and rebounding Al brought and we loved the fact that he could plug into a big hole as a rookie but I think we need to be a little realistic about saying that we prefer him to our second best player because you think he's going to turn into Tim Duncan, one of the 10 greatest players ever.

[Buzzard]

Dncan, Brand, and Boozer? Dude, those guys are just more offensively talented than Al. More offensively talented in college too. Add to that that Duncan and Brand are elite level shotblockers.

It is a HUGE stretch to lump Al with those guys, his rookie year was a lot closer to a guy like Okafor or Zydrunas Ilgauskus than to any of those guys. I know we all love the toughness and rebounding Al brought and we loved the fact that he could plug into a big hole as a rookie but I think we need to be a little realistic about saying that we prefer him to our second best player because you think he's going to turn into Tim Duncan, one of the 10 greatest players ever.

I like that comparison to Okafor and Zydrunas. And no doubt Horford is not as offensively talented as Boozer; but Al's rookie numbers compare favorably to Boozer's.

Since you do not think Al will be a elite level player, the 72 million dollar question is who does "our second best player" compare to? I used quotes intentionally since that is your opinion....I really do not think Smoove compares favorably with any all-star player. Though you could argue that he is tougher than AK 47 or Marion, there is no way Smoove is even close to the offensive games those two guys bring to the table (I think AK is on the downside of his career now).

I would love it if Smoove had a decent jumper (mid range and/or long range); but the fact is he does not. And whether he will ever develop one is a question the ASG is asking themselves right now. If he could hit a jumper, Smoove would be downright dangerous and worth every penny of the 72 mill he is asking for; no doubt about it! Maybe he should enroll in summer classes at UNC; and work on that jumpshot with Marvin...

[foeteen14]

I like that comparison to Okafor and Zydrunas. And no doubt Horford is not as offensively talented as Boozer; but Al's rookie numbers compare favorably to Boozer's.

Since you do not think Al will be a elite level player, the 72 million dollar question is who does "our second best player" compare to? I used quotes intentionally since that is your opinion....I really do not think Smoove compares favorably with any all-star player. Though you could argue that he is tougher than AK 47 or Marion, there is no way Smoove is even close to the offensive games those two guys bring to the table (I think AK is on the downside of his career now).

I would love it if Smoove had a decent jumper (mid range and/or long range); but the fact is he does not. And whether he will ever develop one is a question the ASG is asking themselves right now. If he could hit a jumper, Smoove would be downright dangerous and worth every penny of the 72 mill he is asking for; no doubt about it! Maybe he should enroll in summer classes at UNC; and work on that jumpshot with Marvin...

i keep trying to tell you guys that smoove is unlike any player to ever come into the league. that's why is hard for some to see just how amazing he is, and how amazing he's going to be. there just nothing to compare him against

[Buzzard]

i keep trying to tell you guys that smoove is unlike any player to ever come into the league. that's why is hard for some to see just how amazing he is, and how amazing he's going to be. there just nothing to compare him against

Yea, No one has ever been able to dunk like Smoove, so you cannot compare him to Dr J, Nique, or Vinsanity. No one has ever been able to block shots like him so you cannot compare him to Big Ben or Bill Russell.

The real problem is Smoove only does two things exceptionally well right now:

Dunk and Block shots. He does not shoot exceptionally well and he does not rebound exceptionally well. I cannot recall an all-star whose only game he brought to the table was dunking and shot blocking.

This is your answer: it takes more than dunking and blocking shots to make an all-star; and until he learns to do something else, you will never be able to compare him to a all-star....

[AHF]

He was the 4th option on his college team as well. How many all stars were 4th options on their college teams?

That is really a relative question given that Marvin joined a college team with three other lottery picks. If someone isn't a top guy at a school like UGA or Temple that is a real problem. It is a different story at schools like UNC or UK. As a freshman, Antoine Walker was the 6th highest scorer for UK's team and was a 3-time All-Star after making the leap the next year.

[exodus]

This is your answer: it takes more than dunking and blocking shots to make an all-star; and until he learns to do something else, you will never be able to compare him to a all-star....

Smith only gets 2.7 ppg on dunks. So where do his other 14.5 ppg come from?

[Buzzard]

Smith only gets 2.7 ppg on dunks. So where do his other 14.5 ppg come from?

I think you understood my point but in case you did not:

Smoove's dunks and blocks are exceptional. His scoring and rebounding are not. He needs to learn how to score and/or rebound better to be an all-star. To say someone is not an all-star is not a knock on the player. The dude was dismissing Horf's game and claiming Smoove to be some sort of second coming...

[exodus]

I think you understood my point but in case you did not:

Smoove's dunks and blocks are exceptional. His scoring and rebounding are not. He needs to learn how to score and/or rebound better to be an all-star. To say someone is not an all-star is not a knock on the player. The dude was dismissing Horf's game and claiming Smoove to be some sort of second coming...

You are saying Smith needs to learn to score even though he scores 7 ppg more than Horford against tougher defenders.

ok

[Cwell]

That is really a relative question given that Marvin joined a college team with three other lottery picks. If someone isn't a top guy at a school like UGA or Temple that is a real problem. It is a different story at schools like UNC or UK. As a freshman, Antoine Walker was the 6th highest scorer for UK's team and was a 3-time All-Star after making the leap the next year.

lol all three of those lottery picks don't play Marvin's position. Jackie Manuel and Jawad Williams started over him. neither are in the NBA. and neither of those lotto picks have been that good in the NBA either. Marvin is no different.

[Buzzard]

You are saying Smith needs to learn to score even though he scores 7 ppg more than Horford against tougher defenders.

ok

You and Diesel must be related. We were discussing Smoove's scoring and rebounding;and instead of continuing that, you turn it back to Al....

Yes, Smoove needs to improve his scoring and rebounding; and if Horford was asking for 72 mill right now I would say he needed to improve his scoring as well. But this is not about "why overpay for Horford" His rookie contract is just fine....

Now take a deep breath, stay on task, and tell my why Smoove should be overpaid at 72 mill...

BTW Everytime you turn it back to a comparison of Al vs Smoove, it is doing nothing for your stance. Horford is a rookie and Smoove is a 4 year NBA vet. Just the fact you consider that a comparison at all, makes Smoove look really weak from a negotiating standpoint...

Edited August 4, 2008 by jamesdcrockett

[mrhonline]

Show me where you got this from. I swear all I heard during the Boston series was how only 5 or 6 rookies had ever averaged 10 boards a game. Maybe they talking about the playoffs? That could be it but I would still like to see the list.

Per36 averages with a minimum amount of minutes.

From Basketball-Reference.com

[Buzzard]

Per36 averages with a minimum amount of minutes.

From Basketball-Reference.com

OK I get it now. I am talking about actual facts that went into the team roster stats for NBA players. Not pers or wass. Team roster stats; rebounds per game...Dalembert would be well on his way to the hall of fame if those people voted based on Pers...

[mrhonline]

OK I get it now. I am talking about actual facts that went into the team roster stats for NBA players. Not pers or wass. Team roster stats; rebounds per game...Dalembert would be well on his way to the hall of fame if those people voted based on Pers...

Not "PER," which stands for Player Efficiency Rating (IIRC), but per minute.

Basically you're comparing actual box score stats per minute in an effort to adjust for different amounts of playing time. As I'm sure you'd agree, it's not fair to compare someone who played 31 minutes with someone who played 38 minutes. Looking at stats per minute views players' stats on a more level playing field.

[Zone034life]

Have been reading your post and wanted to know do you respect Smooves game at all? Do you appreciate his best qualities or revel in his shortcomings?

Me for instance am not a MW fan but I can respect him for his mid range jump shooting. It sounds to me you see Smoove as nothing more than a highlight reel, non jump shooting player with no substance to his game.

The player you describe Smoove to be doesn't even deserve 45 mil over 6 years.

Marvin has Diesel

Chillz has exodus

Now Smoove has jamesdcrockett

I agree with D about Marvins game but beg to differ with ex and crockett about Chillz and Smoove.

[thecampster]

I believe what the word you are looking for is "caricature".

We talk and talk about players on this board until they are just cartoon images to us. If you say "insert player here", can or can't do this or that long enough he gets a label (see childress=energy guy).

I think some good medicine for some people on this board would be to see video of some NBA players circa 22 years old and then video of the same player at 30. In most cases their games evolve to a point they are barely recognizable.

For an example of this I submit Clyde Drexler at 22 was a rookie. he only got 17 minutes a game, 7.7 points, 2.9 rebounds and 1.9 assists while shooting 45.1 percent.

at the age of 24 in 85/86 Drexler average 5.6 boards, 8 assists and 18.5 points as he was more of a slashing/point type player.

Over the next few years he worked on his outside shooting and his game evolved. In 88-89, he pulled 7.9 rebounds but only 5.8 assists while his point total jumed to 27.2 and shooting 49.6 percent.

If Drexler would have been painted into his caricature of slashing tweener, Portland probably never goes to the finals and the glyde would never have become the career player he was.

So the original question of this thread was "Why overpay Josh". I posted a very similar topic the other day called "what does 72 million buy you". I'll shorten my answer here. $72 million buys you a player for 5 years that has the core toolset to develop into a great player. Or you can Characterize him however you want at only 22 years of age and not pay the money (Something portland is glad they didn't do to Drexler). Now all you have to do is tell me who you are gonna spend that 72 mil on that will be better for us.

Edited August 4, 2008 by thecampster

[exodus]

Horford is a rookie and Smoove is a 4 year NBA vet.

HAHAHAHA there Smith is only 7 months older than Horford but somehow he is an NBA vet.

Everyone wants to give Horford credit for being a winner in college but at the same time dismiss the the fact that 3 years of college ball actually helped his game.

Smith averaged 17/8 while being 2nd in the league in blocks and top 20 in steals. He was easily the Hawks best defender on the season and their second leading scorer. Looking at the contracts the other RFAs have signed it is easy to justify $12 million/yr for Smith.

Edited August 4, 2008 by exodus

[crimedog]

I think you understood my point but in case you did not:

Smoove's dunks and blocks are exceptional. His scoring and rebounding are not. He needs to learn how to score and/or rebound better to be an all-star. To say someone is not an all-star is not a knock on the player. The dude was dismissing Horf's game and claiming Smoove to be some sort of second coming...

Dismissing? I compared his rookie season to a rookie of the year and two-time all-star who was the MVP of the rookie-sophmore game. How is that dismissing? Al was neither.

I actually didn't say ANYTHING about Smith. Somehow saying that Al Horford is not going to be Tim Duncan is both a) dismissing Al and b) saying Smith is the second coming?

Please explain these two things I've done because I'm at a complete loss.

[crimedog]

OK I get it now. I am talking about actual facts that went into the team roster stats for NBA players. Not pers or wass. Team roster stats; rebounds per game...Dalembert would be well on his way to the hall of fame if those people voted based on Pers...

Just to clarify something for you here, based on PER, Dalembert has been almost perfectly average for an NBA player in his career... but yeah, why not just throw it out there...

[AHF]

lol all three of those lottery picks don't play Marvin's position. Jackie Manuel and Jawad Williams started over him. neither are in the NBA. and neither of those lotto picks have been that good in the NBA either. Marvin is no different.

You can easily get a list of All-Stars who were fourth options or lower their freshman year in college on teams with quality depth. If you think Sean Mays was not an impact college basketball player then you are crazy. That is like blaming Grant Hill for being a lesser option on Duke's roster than Christian Laetner.

Marvin has dissappointed me too but when you have juniors who are good enough college players to be lottery picks, you are going to see a talented freshman who eventually becomes an NBA All-Star down the list of offensive options in many cases.

Another easy example, is Rasheed Wallace who was the fourth option as a freshman at UNC.