State, For Posterity, Your Case ...

[Traceman]

He's an OK rebounder for a SF, don't forget he was essentially the backup PF last season.

As far as top 5 defensively:

LeBron James

Richard Jefferson

Paul Pierce

Danny Granger

Josh Howard

Ron Artest

Stephen Jackson

Lamar Odom

Shawn Marion

Caron Butler

Gerald Wallace

Luol Deng

Andre Iguodala

are all guys on just that list that I'd take before him, leaves out guys like Bowen and Posey

You would take ALL those guys DEFENSIVLEY over Marvin? LeBron? Are you serious? Other than getting a few steals and weakside blocks, LeBron plays NO D.

As for the others, Jax gets a lot of steals but he has never been an above average defender. Jefferson's D, as indicated by his coaches, was worse last year as he focused on scoring and let the other parts of his game slip. Pierce's D looked better this year because he had KG behind him but he has never played much D and it still wasn't THAT great. Josh Howard's D took a step back last year - decent but not great. Deng is a good rebounder but he's slow and can't stay in front of athletic guys. Iggy is out of position FAR too much. Butler is finally average on D but I wouldn't call him good.

Out of that list, Artest is the best followed by Wallace. I would put Granger next. After that, I'm going with Marvin. I would put Marion ahead of Marvin and POSSIBLY Odom (though probably not at SF) but both of those guys played FAR more PF than SF last year.

[thefloydian]

I think Marvin is going to break out next year, and I would not mind seeing him extended right now if the claims about his size and 3-point shooting are legit.

[NJHAWK]

If you think Marvin will be a top 10 sf next year... how would your rank him against these other SFs?

I only had time to add 20 of them, so guys like Prince and AK47 got left off.

LeBron James - 30.0ppg - 7.9rebs - 7.2 asts

Carmelo Anthony -25.7ppg - 7.4rebs - 3.4 asts

Richard Jefferson - 22.6ppg - 4.2rebs - 3.1 asts

Paul Pierce - 19.6ppg - 5.1rebs - 4.5 asts

Danny Granger - 19.6ppg - 6.1rebs - 2.1 ast

Hedo Turkoglu - 19.5ppg - 5.7rebs - 5.0asts

Rudy Gay - 20.1ppg - 6.2rebs - 2.0asts

Rashard Lewis - 18.2ppg - 5.4rebs - 2.4asts

Josh Howard - 19.9ppg - 7.0rebs 2.2 ast

Ron Artest - 20.5ppg - 5.8 - 3.5 asts

Stephen Jackson - 20.1ppg - 4.4 - 4.1asts

Mike Dunleavy -19.1 - 5.2 - 3.5 asts

Lamar Odom - 14.2ppg - 10.6 rebs - 3.5asts

Shawn Marion -15.8ppg - 9.9rebs - 2.2 asts

Al Thornton - 12.7ppg - 4.5rebs - 1.2asts

Peja Stojakovic - 16.4ppg - 4.3rebs - 1.2asts

Kevin Durant -20.3 ppg 4.4rebs - 2.2 asts

Caron Butler - 20.3ppg - 6.7rebs 4.9 asts

Corey Maggette - 22.1ppg - 5.6rebs - 2.7asts

Gerald Wallace - 19.2ppg - 6.0rebs - 3.5asts

Luol Deng - 17.0 - 6.2asts - 2.5ast

Andre Iguodala -19.9ppg - 5.4rebs - 4.8 asts

Well 1st explain how Dunleavy/Granger, Lewis/Turkoglu, Maggette/StevieJax can all be small forwards when they play on the same team? Explain how Iggy started at the 2 guard for the Sixers all season but you list him as a small forward. I though Thaddeous Young was their small forward after Korver left. Explain how Kevin Durant played every single game as a 2guard with Seattle but he is conviently listed as a sf for your list? Those are just the obvious ones. I know Odom and Deng have spent alot of time at pf in the past. Also why is Al Thorton on this list since his #'s are not as good as Marvs yet? Just goes to show you how far peeps will bend and break the truth to attack Marv.

[Antmillennium]

Marvin WILL NOT be a good player in this league until he learns how to create his own shot, become a threat from the 3-point line, and drive to the basket without dribbling the ball off of his own foot or getting stripped. He may not necessarily need to become a threat from 3 if he compensates for it in other ways, but looking at how his game is right now, he absolutely needs to become a threat from the 3-point line if he's not going to be good at creating his own shot.

[pimp]

Well 1st explain how Dunleavy/Granger, Lewis/Turkoglu, Maggette/StevieJax can all be small forwards when they play on the same team? Explain how Iggy started at the 2 guard for the Sixers all season but you list him as a small forward. I though Thaddeous Young was their small forward after Korver left. Explain how Kevin Durant played every single game as a 2guard with Seattle but he is conviently listed as a sf for your list? Those are just the obvious ones. I know Odom and Deng have spent alot of time at pf in the past. Also why is Al Thorton on this list since his #'s are not as good as Marvs yet? Just goes to show you how far peeps will bend and break the truth to attack Marv.

This is just dumb. You are so quick to think someone is Attcking Marvin that you are saying silly things.

Chilldress and Marvin played on the same team does that make them small fowards?

Some players have to play out of position to get the best players on the floor.Do you think Rashard Lewis is a pf? is Turkoglu a pf? NO, THEY ARE BOTH SF! Same with Maggette/StevieJax.

Marvin has played some pf, does that make him not a sf? Odom

his career as a sf both has played pf because of team needs.But where do you think he will play next year? Bynum is the Center, Gasol is the PF so guess where Oden will play.

Iggy is a G/F, Durant is a G/f, is a sf Drew Gooden is thier pf.

[Vol4ever]

I'll go on the record although I don't know how you intend to objectively measure it. I believe MW will not be a top 10 Sf as indicated by per48 stats for Sfs playing 20 minutes or more using either Roland Rating, TENDEX, or any other overall statistics.

Is that clear enough?

Example? The WORST of the top ten Sfs per48 TENDEX scores last year was Danny Granger's 24.86.

http://www.dougstats.com/07-08Tendex.html

MW last year had a per48 TENDEX of 19.87. Ouch. Not a chance.

W

I'll take MW over Danny Granger any day of the week.

[AtLaS]

I'll take MW over Danny Granger any day of the week.

I really hope you're kidding.

[crimedog]

You would take ALL those guys DEFENSIVLEY over Marvin? LeBron? Are you serious? Other than getting a few steals and weakside blocks, LeBron plays NO D.

As for the others, Jax gets a lot of steals but he has never been an above average defender. Jefferson's D, as indicated by his coaches, was worse last year as he focused on scoring and let the other parts of his game slip. Pierce's D looked better this year because he had KG behind him but he has never played much D and it still wasn't THAT great. Josh Howard's D took a step back last year - decent but not great. Deng is a good rebounder but he's slow and can't stay in front of athletic guys. Iggy is out of position FAR too much. Butler is finally average on D but I wouldn't call him good.

Out of that list, Artest is the best followed by Wallace. I would put Granger next. After that, I'm going with Marvin. I would put Marion ahead of Marvin and POSSIBLY Odom (though probably not at SF) but both of those guys played FAR more PF than SF last year.

I guess there isn't a great way to prove who is or isn't better as a defender but Lebron's defense improved tremendously last season. He is just so athletic and strong that he doesn't have to put the same effort as a guy like Marv should to have the same result. That being said, he was better in man than ever before and he is a factor off the ball too.

Jax has always been known as a premier defender, you may not agree with that but his on/off numbers are strong and he's pretty tenacious.

Pierce had a fantastic season defensively, he tried harder because KG was there and the results were very impressive. KG was the linchpin but Pierce was one of the better defensive SFs in the game last season.

Howard and Deng's defense slipped, I'll give you that, but both had been excellent the season before and are still better than Marv even though he could eclipse both eventually. Iggy is a borderline stopper in this league, he chases blocks and steals too much but he is a fantastic athlete and can recover well enough that he is more effective than more disciplined defenders.

I'll agree with you on Jefferson and Odom respectively, Jefferson played no D whatsoever, although when he does play it he's nice and Odom is a PF. Butler may be a push with Marv.

I think Marv has the physical ability to be a top defender but he's got to get more coordinated, guys like Bowen and Battier are incredibly agile even though they aren't nearly as explosive as some of these younger guys. He's also got to get a mean streak and use his size to his advantage more.

Man defense is something that generally gets better with age so I don't doubt Marv will eventually do well in that catergory but I think its silly to put rank him any higher than "solid" until he really differentiates himself in some aspect of defense.

[Traceman]

I guess there isn't a great way to prove who is or isn't better as a defender but Lebron's defense improved tremendously last season. He is just so athletic and strong that he doesn't have to put the same effort as a guy like Marv should to have the same result. That being said, he was better in man than ever before and he is a factor off the ball too.

Jax has always been known as a premier defender, you may not agree with that but his on/off numbers are strong and he's pretty tenacious.

Pierce had a fantastic season defensively, he tried harder because KG was there and the results were very impressive. KG was the linchpin but Pierce was one of the better defensive SFs in the game last season.

Howard and Deng's defense slipped, I'll give you that, but both had been excellent the season before and are still better than Marv even though he could eclipse both eventually. Iggy is a borderline stopper in this league, he chases blocks and steals too much but he is a fantastic athlete and can recover well enough that he is more effective than more disciplined defenders.

I'll agree with you on Jefferson and Odom respectively, Jefferson played no D whatsoever, although when he does play it he's nice and Odom is a PF. Butler may be a push with Marv.

I think Marv has the physical ability to be a top defender but he's got to get more coordinated, guys like Bowen and Battier are incredibly agile even though they aren't nearly as explosive as some of these younger guys. He's also got to get a mean streak and use his size to his advantage more.

Man defense is something that generally gets better with age so I don't doubt Marv will eventually do well in that catergory but I think its silly to put rank him any higher than "solid" until he really differentiates himself in some aspect of defense.

I agree that it is difficult to prove who is a better defender. You can look at certain stats but stats don't tell the whole story.

I do think LeBron's D has improved (particularly his on ball D) but he still gets caught out of postion too much and he doesn't always rotate in a timely fashion. I agree that he has superior tools to be a great defender but I don't think he uses those tools often enough. He is so much the focal point of his team's offense that I think he loses focus on the defensive end.

Jax is terrific at getting steals and he was a decent defender when he was here (when he was motivated at least) but I don't I see him as a premier defender. Maybe I should give him a little bit of a break because VERY few people stand out on D in Nellie's system.

I agree that Pierce's D was MUCH better last year, I just think KG's presence had more to do with it than anything else.

I don't think Deng is athletic enough to be a stopper although he does try hard. Howard is but his D slipped quite a bit last year. I think Marv is better than both already and I think he will be significantly better than Deng this year on D.

I think Bowen and Battier are so good on D because of their smarts and because of their DESIRE to be good on D. I think Marvin is very smart as well and I hope that he will pay attention to detail on the defensive end like those guys do. Marv has more athletic ability than either of those guys and he is now bigger than either one of them. Both of those guys were definitely better than Marv on D last year and they may always be better than he is on D but I think he has a chance to be as good as Battier if he puts his mind to it. On offense, he will be MUCH better than both.

I think Marv's D was above average last year and I think it will be NOTICEABLY better this year. I look for him to have more steals and for him to spend more time guarding the other team's best perimeter scorer in order to take some pressure off JJ. It will be interesting to see how well he does. Time will tell.

[Packfill]

I just want all of you idiots to show how stupid you are in one thread.

State, for the record, all the dumb@ss shiitake you want about Marvin's supposed lack of game.

Seriously, lets get it all in this one thread so that I can flame all of you idiots during the season.

Let the Marvin hate out you numbskulls.

(and, FYI, if you feel the need to attack me personally, since I've already started the trend, stick to insulting my intelligence please).

That's right, for the record, claim that Marvin won't be a top ten SF next season.

Let it flow, so that we can point out how little you know about basketball in a few months.

:stirthepot:

I don't think Marvin will be one of the ten best small forwards next year. It would be great if he was, but I don't think it will happen.

I do think he will become a Richard Jefferson/Rashard Lewis type of player in time though, which is nice, except for what the team passed on to draft him.

[Guest Walter]

I'll take MW over Danny Granger any day of the week.

Then you're crazy. Danny owns MW. 19.6/6.1 to 14.8/5.7...40% 3pt% to 10%1 BPG and 1.2 SPG to 0.4 and 1.0. And you'll never find an overall stat suggesting MW is better than Granger. It isn't even close.

W

[lunar]

marvin isn't going to be a top 10 SF in the league (the list with the 20 was pretty accurate) but that doesn't make him a bad player. you would think that by now we could look past an arbitrary number and actually look at what he does on the floor. alot of the players that are top 10-15 are number one or two options on their prospective teams, marvin by all accouts is the number 4 option and only gets plays when things break down. alot of people want him to become a 20 pt plus scorer, but we already have two of them in johnson and smith. bibby can also get you close to twenty on some nights as well. everybody can't be stars on a team, some people have to become role players and with marvin we have a pretty good one. i don't see how someone with a shot like his can't have game, and it's not like the guy is avg. 3ppg like hoffa did for toronto. if you just look at his stats you would see that he's becoming a good player.

[Buzzard]

I think Marvin will get at least 17ppg this season, while still maintaining his high shooting %. Marvin will improve; and hopefully so will all our young players. They have to, if we want to keep up with the (playoff) jones's...