Will MW EVER have a season as productive as Deron's (or Bynum's or Paul's) 3rd season)

[Guest Walter]

Let's remove age from the equation (although Bynum nearly doubles MW's TENDEX per48 stats despite being younger). Let's remove consistency from the equation. Let's give MW all the advantages one could possibly hope for. Will MW EVER in his career have a year like the year Paul, Bynum (prior to injury), and Deron had? Since Deron had the lesser year statistically between the 3 let's go with his numbers. Deron's EFF was 24.00, his Roland Rating +4.3, and his TENDEX per48 was 31.36.

MW's TENDEX per48 is 19.78 and his Roland Rating is -2.6 for this season.

I'm not asking you to compare MW to Deron. I'm asking you to compare the best season MW will ever have to Deron's 3rd season using whatever overall statistic you would prefer. We need some measurement that takes into account the strength of that draft at the position we drafted. I will even accept other statistics (post them). Will MW EVER be statistically as good as 3rd year Deron.

My position? He will never be within 10% of 3rd year Deron. Not even in his prime of primes.

If so, when? If in 3 years with regular intervals of improvement (he should improve faster earlier, right, but let's assume "regular") then we can expect MW to improve his Roland Rating 2.3 points this year (to a still meager -.03) and/or his TENDEX per48 to 23.68 next year. Anyone willing to even go this far in their support of MW?

W

[Admin]

Let's remove age from the equation (although Bynum nearly doubles MW's TENDEX per48 stats despite being younger). Let's remove consistency from the equation. Let's give MW all the advantages one could possibly hope for. Will MW EVER in his career have a year like the year Paul, Bynum (prior to injury), and Deron had? Since Deron had the lesser year statistically between the 3 let's go with his numbers. Deron's EFF was 24.00, his Roland Rating +4.3, and his TENDEX per48 was 31.36.

MW's TENDEX per48 is 19.78 and his Roland Rating is -2.6 for this season.

I'm not asking you to compare MW to Deron. I'm asking you to compare the best season MW will ever have to Deron's 3rd season using whatever overall statistic you would prefer. We need some measurement that takes into account the strength of that draft at the position we drafted. I will even accept other statistics (post them). Will MW EVER be statistically as good as 3rd year Deron.

My position? He will never be within 10% of 3rd year Deron. Not even in his prime of primes.

If so, when? If in 3 years with regular intervals of improvement (he should improve faster earlier, right, but let's assume "regular") then we can expect MW to improve his Roland Rating 2.3 points this year (to a still meager -.03) and/or his TENDEX per48 to 23.68 next year. Anyone willing to even go this far in their support of MW?

W

Who cares, it's not a valid comparison since you are comparing him to 2 PGs (perhaps the 2 best in the league by the way) and a center (who many consider to be the best young center in the game). Even with it being an invalid comparison, it won't break my heart if MW never matches the production of the best PGs in the game or one of the best centers in the game.

[Swish]

This thread is a little on the superfluous side...its like dolfan said, its ridiculous to compare Martian to Bynum and two Olympians.

[NJHAWK]

Does a Tendex or Roland rating measure a womans menstual cycle?

Edited August 18, 2008 by NJHAWK

[Guest Walter]

Who cares, it's not a valid comparison since you are comparing him to 2 PGs (perhaps the 2 best in the league by the way) and a center (who many consider to be the best young center in the game). Even with it being an invalid comparison, it won't break my heart if MW never matches the production of the best PGs in the game or one of the best centers in the game.

1) Shouldn't we expect MW to be "one of the best (Sfs) in the game" considering what we invested in him?

2) Whatever Deron, or paul, or Bynum (especially) will be, he/they wasn't/weren't there last year AND THAT IS WHAT THE COMPARISON is ABOUT!

3) If considering MW "one of the best young Sfs in the game" isn't fair despite his being drafted to be more than just such and if comparing the BEST YEAR OF HIS CAREER to a DEVELOPMENTAL YEAR of one of his draft peers isn't fair, then for christ's sake, go ahead and say that MW is an underacheiver because I couldn't say it any better!!!

By your fumbling "it's not fair" exit you are suggesting OVER HIS CAREER that MW will never once be a comparable player to the Deron OF LAST YEAR. It's entirely fair to say that if MW NEVER has a year over his career equal to Deron's developmental 3rd year he is a HUGE disappointment and that if he is to EVER get there he should be expected to make certain overall statistical improvements.

Dolfan your crazy a** asked for stats. I gave them. A Roland Rating of -0.3 and a TENDEX of 23.68 next year. Let's amend those to 0.0 Roland and 23.5 TENDEX for ease of recall. Those are frankly, MEAGER improvements for your 4th year! JS has blasted BOTH of those out of the water! We all know you have fast feet even when you draw the line in the sand. Now where is your backbone?

W

[Wurider05]

:beathorse:

Here we go again with the same old bullshit. What f***ing point are you guys trying to make. Let's just say that you are right about Marvin. What the f*** will that change? He is still going to be a Hawk. Last time I checked no one here could see the future. You guys are getting to the point where you have become parodies of yourselves. Bust or not he isn't going anywhere. If you are any fan of the Hawks like you claim to be you would just hope for the best and hope that he helps us win. But this s*** is getting old man. If your daughter/son marries someone that you didn't approve of are you going to wish them bad luck or are you going to accept it (because you can't do anything about it) and just hope for the best. Of course you wouldn't...............

You think that if you reach 100,000 Marvin posts he will disappear from the roster!!!

All this looking into the future and "what if" bullshit is really stupid!!! The reality of the matter is that Marvin Williams is an Atlanta Hawk. Marvin Williams was the 2nd pick in the 2005 draft. Chris Paul and Deron Williams were not drafted by the Atlanta Hawks. Andrew Bynum was not drafted by the Atlanta Hawks. These are the facts Mr. Walter so accept it or perhaps start a Chris Paul/Deron Williams/Andrew Bynum manlove website instead of trying to turn this one into one. This is Hawksquawk if you haven't noticed!!!! Marvin doing well means that the team is doing well. You and your "crew" seem to want Marvin to fail and be a bust just to pound on your chest and say I told you so. I question whether or not you guys even want the team to do well because then you won't have s*** to talk about.

[Admin]

1) Shouldn't we expect MW to be "one of the best (Sfs) in the game" considering what we invested in him?

2) Whatever Deron, or paul, or Bynum (especially) will be, he/they wasn't/weren't there last year AND THAT IS WHAT THE COMPARISON is ABOUT!

3) If considering MW "one of the best young Sfs in the game" isn't fair despite his being drafted to be more than just such and if comparing the BEST YEAR OF HIS CAREER to a DEVELOPMENTAL YEAR of one of his draft peers isn't fair, then for christ's sake, go ahead and say that MW is an underacheiver because I couldn't say it any better!!!

By your fumbling "it's not fair" exit you are suggesting OVER HIS CAREER that MW will never once be a comparable player to the Deron OF LAST YEAR. It's entirely fair to say that if MW NEVER has a year over his career equal to Deron's developmental 3rd year he is a HUGE disappointment and that if he is to EVER get there he should be expected to make certain overall statistical improvements.

Dolfan your crazy a** asked for stats. I gave them. A Roland Rating of -0.3 and a TENDEX of 23.68 next year. Let's amend those to 0.0 Roland and 23.5 TENDEX for ease of recall. Those are frankly, MEAGER improvements for your 4th year! JS has blasted BOTH of those out of the water! We all know you have fast feet even when you draw the line in the sand. Now where is your backbone?

W

Walter, go find a SMALL FORWARD (like Diesel did) to compare MW to if you want a VALID comparison. Otherwise lets start talking about how "sad" it is that neither Joe Johnson nor Josh Smith nor anyone else will ever statistically equal Shaq or some other invalid comparison used to discredit their accomplishments.

[Guest Walter]

Does a Tendex or Roland rating measure a womans menstual cycle?

If "menstual" cycle refers to the basketball equivalent of the cycle in baseball, then yes.

Finally, a worse speller than me.

BTW, I asked for ANY overall statistic, so feel free to add a statistic that you don't confuse with anything you would prefer to know nothing about.

[Guest Walter]

Walter, go find a SMALL FORWARD (like Diesel did) to compare MW to if you want a VALID comparison. Otherwise lets start talking about how "sad" it is that neither Joe Johnson nor Josh Smith nor anyone else will ever statistically equal Shaq or some other invalid comparison used to discredit their accomplishments.

What about A Roland Rating of -0.3 and a TENDEX of 23.68 next year is unreasonable? Please, do tell.

I love it when the MW "defense" increasingly is "It isn't fair. He isn't as good as those guys (you know the ones he was supposed to be better than)".

W

[Guest Walter]

:beathorse:

Here we go again with the same old bullshit.

...followed by another idiotic Wurider post about how we're stuck with MW's underacheivement (We never were and we're not), how we must compare MW to lesser players to be fair and not the players he was supposed to be better than - even in this case when we are comparing the best MW will ever be to their developmental years (WTF?), even if MW is an underacheiver he's a Hawk underacheiver and we should support his underacheivement (more WTF?).

I provided MEAGER stats that MW must reach next year if he is to EVER have a season as good as Deron's 3rd developmental year. They are a 0.0 Roland rating and a 23.5 TENDEX per48. I will accept ANY other statistical overall measurement. WHAT are you afraid of Wurider? Can you not support MW's (under)acheivement objectively or must you hide behind your asinine comments about me.

W

[Admin]

I love it when the MW "defense" increasingly is "It isn't fair. He isn't as good as those guys (you know the ones he was supposed to be better than)".

W

I didn't say it wasn't fair, I said it was invalid. Try comparing apples to apples and then present your argument. Honestly, why on Earth would you expect a SF who is the 3rd or 4th option on his team to be equal statistically to a PG who is the 1st option on his team?

It's like this, my Acura is nice, but if I tried going off-road with it I think I'd be pretty disappointed with the results. Comprende?

[Swish]

lol Walter seems to be having some listening issues this morning. Makes sense to me.

[Wurider05]

...followed by another idiotic Wurider post about how we're stuck with MW's underacheivement (We never were and we're not), how we must compare MW to lesser players to be fair and not the players he was supposed to be better than - even in this case when we are comparing the best MW will ever be to their developmental years (WTF?), even if MW is an underacheiver he's a Hawk underacheiver and we should support his underacheivement (more WTF?).

I provided MEAGER stats that MW must reach next year if he is to EVER have a season as good as Deron's 3rd developmental year. They are a 0.0 Roland rating and a 23.5 TENDEX per48. I will accept ANY other statistical overall measurement. WHAT are you afraid of Wurider? Can you not support MW's (under)acheivement objectively or must you hide behind your asinine comments about me.

W

You and your elk can point out numbers and indexes all you want. I don't play that game. The point is what are you trying to prove. Calling people out and challenging them is childish bullshit. 3 years after the fact we know how you feel. Did time stop moving forward for you 3 years ago. As far as calling my posts idiotic, in all of my posts I attempt to use common sense, something you apparently lost 3 years ago. You are entitled to your opinion regardless of what I think. I just get sick and tired if these same old post every f***ing day. I don't know if Marvin was the right pick or not but the bottom line that he is here now and he is productive. I am an Atlanta Hawks fan and I often wonder are we even looking at the same damn team. All this Marvin can't do this or Marvin's per is lower than player X. Man get a f***ing life!!!! No matter what you say or what numbers you pull out he won't be undrafted. Marvin definitely can improve and he has to. You must never forget that JJ was brought here to be the franchise player, the go-to man. If JJ wasn't here then I would wholeheartedly agree with you with Marvin. You guys compare him to players who are the man on their teams when he isn't or player who were drafted into better situations (Bynum). Now god forbid something happens to JJ and if Marv numbers are the same then you have the grounds for your argument. I am not defending Marvin but rather I am looking at the entire situation. Plain common sense.................

Edited August 18, 2008 by Wurider05

[Diesel]

A real question is:

Will Marvin better his 3rd year production?

My guess is prolly not.

It would require injury for Marvin to do better.

Bibby's going to learn how to pass to Horf. Our offense is going to be more traditional.

Marvin will be a Tim Thomas role player.

[Traceman]

Let's remove age from the equation (although Bynum nearly doubles MW's TENDEX per48 stats despite being younger). Let's remove consistency from the equation. Let's give MW all the advantages one could possibly hope for. Will MW EVER in his career have a year like the year Paul, Bynum (prior to injury), and Deron had? Since Deron had the lesser year statistically between the 3 let's go with his numbers. Deron's EFF was 24.00, his Roland Rating +4.3, and his TENDEX per48 was 31.36.

MW's TENDEX per48 is 19.78 and his Roland Rating is -2.6 for this season.

I'm not asking you to compare MW to Deron. I'm asking you to compare the best season MW will ever have to Deron's 3rd season using whatever overall statistic you would prefer. We need some measurement that takes into account the strength of that draft at the position we drafted. I will even accept other statistics (post them). Will MW EVER be statistically as good as 3rd year Deron.

My position? He will never be within 10% of 3rd year Deron. Not even in his prime of primes.

If so, when? If in 3 years with regular intervals of improvement (he should improve faster earlier, right, but let's assume "regular") then we can expect MW to improve his Roland Rating 2.3 points this year (to a still meager -.03) and/or his TENDEX per48 to 23.68 next year. Anyone willing to even go this far in their support of MW?

W

Stupid comparison and you know it. So your point is that Marvin will never be better statistically than the 2 best PGs in the NBA last year? In the famous words of of Derrick Coleman, "Whup-de-damn-do!"

Paul was 2nd to LeBron in the entire NBA in PER last year and the only SFs with better PERs than Deron were LeBron and Carmelo. In other words, Marvin could shoot 49% from the field, score 26 ppg, grab 7 rbg, dish 3 apg and STILL not equal what either of those guys did from a statistical standpoint.

If you want to comapre Marvin objectively, compare him to guys like LeBron, Carmelo, Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, Iguodala, Artest, etc. Or you could always compare him to your boy Bargnani (snicker).

[Admin]

A real question is:

Will Marvin better his 3rd year production?

My guess is prolly not.

It would require injury for Marvin to do better.

Bibby's going to learn how to pass to Horf. Our offense is going to be more traditional.

Marvin will be a Tim Thomas role player.

You don't think he will better his 3rd year production? You must not know how to understand trends since Marvin has clearly gotten better every year and the stats show that across the board. Why would he all of the sudden stop improving? What is your rationale for that?

[Swish]

Its called---Diesel mindless Marvin hating rationale lol. Not hatin on ya D but it is funny!

[Diesel]

You don't think he will better his 3rd year production? You must not know how to understand trends since Marvin has clearly gotten better every year and the stats show that across the board. Why would he all of the sudden stop improving? What is your rationale for that?

I watched how he played after we got Bibby.

When you add more complete scoring options, Marvin's muchalina offense disappears. Remember, Marvin's midrange offense was 100% assisted. THAT means that he doesn't create for himself. He's dependent on JJ throwing him the pass for the wide open shot. When Bibby Joined the mix three things happened. JJ started relying on Bibby to make more plays. Marv received less looks because JJ wasn't always the ball handler. Muchalina Marvin can't create his own game so with the improvement of Horf, I suspect that Marvin will decrease.

[Admin]

I watched how he played after we got Bibby.

When you add more complete scoring options, Marvin's muchalina offense disappears. Remember, Marvin's midrange offense was 100% assisted. THAT means that he doesn't create for himself. He's dependent on JJ throwing him the pass for the wide open shot. When Bibby Joined the mix three things happened. JJ started relying on Bibby to make more plays. Marv received less looks because JJ wasn't always the ball handler. Muchalina Marvin can't create his own game so with the improvement of Horf, I suspect that Marvin will decrease.

As I remember, the claim was that his clutch baskets were 100% assisted, not all of his midrange offense.

Marvin's scoring went down after Bibby's arrival because he became the 4th scoring option. I wish he were more aggressive and would demand the ball more and not allow them to make him the 4th option but I don't know if he can do anything about it. He is 4th out of 5th in seniority as far as the starters go and 2 of those other 3 starters with more experience than him are more talented than he is.

[Diesel]

"As I remember, the claim was that his clutch baskets were 100% assisted, not all of his midrange offense.

Marvin's scoring went down after Bibby's arrival because he became the 4th scoring option. I wish he were more aggressive and would demand the ball more and not allow them to make him the 4th option but I don't know if he can do anything about it.He is 4th out of 5th in seniority as far as the starters go and 2 of those other 3 starters with more experience than him are more talented than he is."

So if you want to answer your own question on why I feel that Marvin won't match his production last season, read the red words. Even you admit that you have no hope for Marvin improving.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Diesel