Josh Howard .... again

[Admin]

DALLAS -- A YouTube video from a charity flag football game in July has Dallas Mavericks forward Josh Howard embroiled in controversy yet again.

The video, from Allen Iverson's event, shows Howard, as the national anthem is being sung, saying: "'The Star-Spangled Banner' is going on. I don't celebrate this [expletive]. I'm black." Howard also makes a hard-to-hear reference to Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama (see the video here; some viewers may find content offensive).

Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said, according to The Dallas Morning News, that the team dealt with Howard at the time of the incident. He added that the team has a plan in place to address the issue at training camp.

"That said, we will be going through some advanced communication skill sessions together this training camp," Cuban said Tuesday. "I have explained to him that cell phone cameras are not your friend and that what you think you said on camera is never what people will hear when it shows up on YouTube or TV."

Also in July, Howard was arrested and charged with speeding (94 mph in a 55 mph zone), careless and reckless driving, and speed competition in North Carolina. He was released from jail on a written promise to appear in court Sept. 23.

In that incident, police said an officer saw a black Lexus and a silver Volkswagen speeding along U.S. 421. The officer stopped the Lexus, and Howard was identified as the driver.

Last year, Howard admitted he is an occasional marijuana user. And in 2006, Howard opted out of playing for the U.S. Olympic team program, reportedly because he said it conflicted with his summer training camps.

[WraithSentinel]

This guy has replace Artest of the biggest f'ing moron of the NBA and sports in general. I am glad we didn't trade for him.

[DrReality]

Send him to Iraq.

[PureGreatness]

heres the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1llOTCAyf0

Edited September 18, 2008 by hoodstar

[Vol4ever]

I'm sure glad we don't have to deal with that idiot. Being a veteran and serving in Desert Storm he can kiss my a#$. What a punk. I think he should be suspended for being a dumbass.

"There goes the star spangled banner, I don't even like that S****, I'm black"

[AHF]

I am so very, very glad we didn't trade for him.

Plus the guy has a history of choking in the playoffs. Thank goodness he is someone else's problem.

[OGRat]

How long do you think he'll last? Anyone remember Chris Jackson/Mahmoud Abdul Rauf? His career went down hill after he did something similar in Denver.

[Traceman]

When I heard he admitted to smoking weed, I almost thought that was a joke. What exactly is the big deal about that? How exactly does it make him a bad person? To me that was a non-issue made into something.

The birthday party incident didn't do much for me, I am sure if they were still playing in the playoffs he wouldn't have had a huge bash during the playoffs. They were out of the playoffs, so why the commotion?

Street racing was just a dumb thing to do, he has a lot of money so if he really likes racing then he should take it to a track, not out in public.

But this last incident really got me. You don't appreciate the national anthem because you are black? When the hell was being American a race issue? I guess I did not get that memo, American is now a race and it does not include black...

Actually, they had just lost Game 4 at home to the Hornets to go down 3-1 in the series and after the game, the idiot passed out fliers to his teammates for his birthday party that was being held later than night at a Dallas night club. To make matters worse, he was 3-16 for 6 pts in 32 minutes in that game AND the coach SPECIFICALLY asked the players to NOT to go out after the game.

Avery was so mad the next day after hearing about the party that he cancelled practice before Game 5. The players ended up practicing themselves. Of course in Game 5, the Mavs got eliminated.

Howard is talented but he's an idiot. This latest flap is just more evidence of that.

[PlayaPat420]

You don't appreciate the national anthem because you are black? When the hell was being American a race issue? I guess I did not get that memo, American is now a race and it does not include black...

Like it or not... the national anthem/star spangled banner was written in a time when blacks had no rights... much like the Constitution. "Every man created equal..." but three black men equaled 1 white at the time (may have been a different exact stat but the point is valid...)?...

why exactly does he HAVE to respect it and be patriotic? Because he lives here? Or the "freedoms" and opportunities" this country gives him? Because thuth be told, many foreigners make it to the NBA... so that opportunity is available everywhere. Then the freedoms are a totally separate issue in itself, to me, that I won't get into.

As for any comments made about Barack Obama... I didn't hear them but unless it was slander; who cares? If he simply said "F- Barack..." or so, who cares? That's his opinion.

This train of thought is the exact reason American, as a country, is Public Enemy #1 around the world... we want everyone to think and act like us and if you don't you're a moron or an idiot or worse.

Just speaking my opinon... a right we supposedly always have.

[Vol4ever]

Like it or not... the national anthem/star spangled banner was written in a time when blacks had no rights... much like the Constitution. "Every man created equal..." but three black men equaled 1 white at the time (may have been a different exact stat but the point is valid...)?...

why exactly does he HAVE to respect it and be patriotic? Because he lives here? Or the "freedoms" and opportunities" this country gives him? Because thuth be told, many foreigners make it to the NBA... so that opportunity is available everywhere. Then the freedoms are a totally separate issue in itself, to me, that I won't get into.

As for any comments made about Barack Obama... I didn't hear them but unless it was slander; who cares? If he simply said "F- Barack..." or so, who cares? That's his opinion.

This train of thought is the exact reason American, as a country, is Public Enemy #1 around the world... we want everyone to think and act like us and if you don't you're a moron or an idiot or worse.

Just speaking my opinon... a right we supposedly always have.

I take total exeption to wht you have said and am offended! Why don't you and Josh Howard go to the foreign countries and defend our freedoms like many others have died doing. Freedon is not free and being born into this great country we all have a duty to respect our forefathers for what they went through.

The problems in this country stem today form the fact that people think they can act and do whatever whenever no matter who it hurts or infringes on. Most of us never went through the depression and don't have any idea of how simple life was so everything is taking for granted.

This train of thought will change one day when hard times hit. I know I am fired up here but there should be a sense of respect for those that take advantage of the freedoms those in the past fought and died for.

[crimedog]

I take total exeption to wht you have said and am offended! Why don't you and Josh Howard go to the foreign countries and defend our freedoms like many others have died doing. Freedon is not free and being born into this great country we all have a duty to respect our forefathers for what they went through.

The problems in this country stem today form the fact that people think they can act and do whatever whenever no matter who it hurts or infringes on. Most of us never went through the depression and don't have any idea of how simple life was so everything is taking for granted.

This train of thought will change one day when hard times hit. I know I am fired up here but there should be a sense of respect for those that take advantage of the freedoms those in the past fought and died for.

Vol, like everyone else here I respect the hell out of you for joining the service. I think that the point people here are trying to make is that there is no point in defending "freedom" if people can't feel comfortable to excercise it. A big difference between the US and Soviet (or current) Russia, or Mao's China, or Castro's Cuba, is that you CAN say that you don't like the government and not be punished for it.

If Josh feels that way he should be able to express it more eloquently, maybe give some reasons why he doesn't care for the national anthem, but there is no one in the US that should say he isn't allowed to feel that way or say something about it.

[Traceman]

Vol, like everyone else here I respect the hell out of you for joining the service. I think that the point people here are trying to make is that there is no point in defending "freedom" if people can't feel comfortable to excercise it. A big difference between the US and Soviet (or current) Russia, or Mao's China, or Castro's Cuba, is that you CAN say that you don't like the government and not be punished for it.

If Josh feels that way he should be able to express it more eloquently, maybe give some reasons why he doesn't care for the national anthem, but there is no one in the US that should say he isn't allowed to feel that way or say something about it.

Josh DOES have the right to say what he said just as I have the right to say that he is an idiot for saying it. As for the idea that he should "feel comfortable" exercising his right to free speech, the Constitution does not guarantee that at all. All the Constitution guarantees is that he will be free from PROSECUTION for his speech. Any discomfort he feels because people ridicule him and call him an idiot, any job he loses because his boss doesn't want his company (team) associated with his unpatriotic comments or any sponsorships he loses because his sponsors don't want to be associated with those comments are NOT protected by the Constitution.

[AHF]

Josh DOES have the right to say what he said just as I have the right to say that he is an idiot for saying it. As for the idea that he should "feel comfortable" exercising his right to free speech, the Constitution does not guarantee that at all. All the Constitution guarantees is that he will be free from PROSECUTION for his speech. Any discomfort he feels because people ridicule him and call him an idiot, any job he loses because his boss doesn't want his company (team) associated with his unpatriotic comments or any sponsorships he loses because his sponsors don't want to be associated with those comments are NOT protected by the Constitution.

Traceman nailed it. What he said is protected speech. The government can't go after him for it. But the rest of us are free to bash him. It would be the same way if he said he hated asian people. Fine, you are legally allowed to say that but you can't get away saying something that stupid without repurcussions. No one is saying that Howard isn't allowed to say what he said. Anyone who is offended just has the right bash him right back (verbally).

[crimedog]

Josh DOES have the right to say what he said just as I have the right to say that he is an idiot for saying it. As for the idea that he should "feel comfortable" exercising his right to free speech, the Constitution does not guarantee that at all. All the Constitution guarantees is that he will be free from PROSECUTION for his speech. Any discomfort he feels because people ridicule him and call him an idiot, any job he loses because his boss doesn't want his company (team) associated with his unpatriotic comments or any sponsorships he loses because his sponsors don't want to be associated with those comments are NOT protected by the Constitution.

I completely agree that he's a moron. I just don't don't think that whole "we should make him go fight in Iraq" argument makes any sense and I don't think he should be suspended. Saying that you don't support the national anthem isn't directed as soldiers, cops, teachers... it could be your protest against anything - in his case it could be a protest against slavery and subsequent racism which he doesn't think were ever adequately addressed.

You and trace are right, thats why I didn't say "you shouldn't call Josh Howard a moron". I think he's a moron too.

Trace, "comfortable" probably isn't the right word but my point was that you should be able to express dissension from the government/country without fearing any punishment. I have no clue what Howard does or doesn't believe and him just saying he "doesn't believe in that s***" obviously doesn't convince me of anything other than the fact that he's a moron but I don't think he should have to fear for his job (obviously the "send him to Iraq" stuff is in jest, I hope at least) just because he doesn't sing the national anthem.

[coachx]

Well, said Trace and Vol !

[Vol4ever]

Vol, like everyone else here I respect the hell out of you for joining the service. I think that the point people here are trying to make is that there is no point in defending "freedom" if people can't feel comfortable to excercise it. A big difference between the US and Soviet (or current) Russia, or Mao's China, or Castro's Cuba, is that you CAN say that you don't like the government and not be punished for it.

If Josh feels that way he should be able to express it more eloquently, maybe give some reasons why he doesn't care for the national anthem, but there is no one in the US that should say he isn't allowed to feel that way or say something about it.

Well I am not trying to start anything but based on what you said I can say "ANYTHING" about anybody and the constitution protects my right of "Freedom of Speech"?

[crimedog]

Well I am not trying to start anything but based on what you said I can say "ANYTHING" about anybody and the constitution protects my right of "Freedom of Speech"?

I was mainly talking about dissession. If Josh Howard doesn't want to support the national anthem, I don't think he's hurting anyone in not doing that. I don't think not supporting the national anthem has ANYTHING to do with supporting troops, cops, teachers, prosecutors, etc. who devote their lives to this country to Josh Howard.

I'm not intending to be absolutist here. I want to keep it on message about this situation. Josh Howard is a moron but I think that he should be able to not want to support the national anthem without having to fear for his job or have people say he should have to go fight in Iraq (which, by the way, makes no sense).

I think the ability to openly disagree with the government is what makes this country beautiful. Again, even if Josh Howard was making a point about race relations in our country (which should be made after seeing some of the signs I've seen in rural GA about Obama being a "half-breed Muslim"), he did a very poor job and you can feel free to call him a moron and use it as further proof of why you don't want him on our team. I just don't see why he should have to fear for his job for not wanting to support the national anthem.

To answer your question, no. I don't think you can say whatever you want and in fact, some of the things that I think a person should be legally allowed to say are things that I would not mind a person getting fired/suspended over. Saying that you don't support the national anthem because of the way the country has historically treated, and continues to treat your race is not one of those things. He didn't incite anyone, he didn't reveal national secrets, and he didn't purvey any sort of racial/ethnic/religious hatred. He was trying to make what many consider to be a valid point, unfortunately he seems to be something of an idiot and couldn't express it particularly well.

Edited September 18, 2008 by crimedog

[Eddielives]

I completely agree that he's a moron. I just don't don't think that whole "we should make him go fight in Iraq" argument makes any sense and I don't think he should be suspended. Saying that you don't support the national anthem isn't directed as soldiers, cops, teachers... it could be your protest against anything - in his case it could be a protest against slavery and subsequent racism which he doesn't think were ever adequately addressed.

You and trace are right, thats why I didn't say "you shouldn't call Josh Howard a moron". I think he's a moron too.

Trace, "comfortable" probably isn't the right word but my point was that you should be able to express dissension from the government/country without fearing any punishment. I have no clue what Howard does or doesn't believe and him just saying he "doesn't believe in that s***" obviously doesn't convince me of anything other than the fact that he's a moron but I don't think he should have to fear for his job (obviously the "send him to Iraq" stuff is in jest, I hope at least) just because he doesn't sing the national anthem.

I love the libertarian common sense being used by traceman and ahf. I'm glad to see there are others who can see that free speech includes unpopular speech. The only thing I'd say to crimedog is that his comments are not excused from punishment by his bosses, co-workers, friends, family, etc...just the government. He represents the dallas mavs and the nba. If he damages their image by making controversial statements, he can and maybe should be punished by fine or suspension. Certainly they have the freedom to do so.

[crimedog]

I love the libertarian common sense being used by traceman and ahf. I'm glad to see there are others who can see that free speech includes unpopular speech. The only thing I'd say to crimedog is that his comments are not excused from punishment by his bosses, co-workers, friends, family, etc...just the government. He represents the dallas mavs and the nba. If he damages their image by making controversial statements, he can and maybe should be punished by fine or suspension. Certainly they have the freedom to do so.

If it gets overly political, I have no problem with Dol shutting this down.

Where does that stop then? I think that my view is at least moderately clear, Josh wasn't trying to hurt anyone by saying that he doesn't believe in the nat'l anthem, he didn't say anything about the troops which matters to me. He just implied that as a black man, he didn't feel like the American system didn't adequately represent him.

Can an employer punish an employee for ANYTHING that they disagree with? Should an employer make it mandatory that an employee hold his hand to his heart during a song? I mean honestly, where can you draw the line if you think he can be punished by his employer for privately (it was to a camera phone after all) not wanting to stand attention to the nat'l anthem? I just think that opens the door to any sort of discrimination possible.

I don't personally agree with Howard's form of protest but he said to a camera phone that he didn't agree with the national anthem because he's black. Whatever that means, it seems like a very basic form of dissent which is supposed to be the thing that seperates us from tightly controlled state powers. If the great democracy/free market system can't protect those who don't stand at attention to a song, what is it supposed to do?

[Eddielives]

If it gets overly political, I have no problem with Dol shutting this down.

Where does that stop then? I think that my view is at least moderately clear, Josh wasn't trying to hurt anyone by saying that he doesn't believe in the nat'l anthem, he didn't say anything about the troops which matters to me. He just implied that as a black man, he didn't feel like the American system didn't adequately represent him.

Can an employer punish an employee for ANYTHING that they disagree with? Should an employer make it mandatory that an employee hold his hand to his heart during a song? I mean honestly, where can you draw the line if you think he can be punished by his employer for privately (it was to a camera phone after all) not wanting to stand attention to the nat'l anthem? I just think that opens the door to any sort of discrimination possible.

I don't personally agree with Howard's form of protest but he said to a camera phone that he didn't agree with the national anthem because he's black. Whatever that means, it seems like a very basic form of dissent which is supposed to be the thing that seperates us from tightly controlled state powers. If the great democracy/free market system can't protect those who don't stand at attention to a song, what is it supposed to do?

It's not just that he said something his employer disagrees with. It's the volatility of what he said coupled with his history of antics. He is protected to say what he wants to say from persecution by the government. But he continues to be an embarrassment to the NBA. They may need to make him realize that with some form of punishment as well they should.