Josh Howard .... again

[crimedog]

It's not just that he said something his employer disagrees with. It's the volatility of what he said coupled with his history of antics. He is protected to say what he wants to say from persecution by the government. But he continues to be an embarrassment to the NBA. They may need to make him realize that with some form of punishment as well they should.

Right, I agree with the principle. I just don't think what he did was an insult to the country or, more importantly, those that are putting themselves in danger in the name of the country.

I mean, saying to a freakin camera phone that you don't celebrate the national anthem because you are black is nothing. I guess you shouldn't say things to camera phones if you are an athlete but what he said was that HE didn't celebrate the national anthem and his reasoning, although incredibly poorly worded, was defensible on some levels.

This isn't Smith/Carlos standing in defiance in front of the world for the exact same reason. This is a dude saying he doesn't agree with something to a camera phone. Again, he's a moron but I don't think he was offensive - people are always complaining that athletes don't take a stand on social issues; Howard did and now people are calling for his head. He should be able to express himself better but that is a topic that he should feel free to express himself on.

[Admin]

Just to add my 2 pennies:

1. I think he's a moron.

2. There's no excuse at this point in time to not think that video wouldn't get out to the public.

3. Whether he did it to a camera phone or not I still think he was wrong for doing it.

4. As an American I find what he did to be offensive and in poor taste. As a former soldier I find it even that much more offensive considering the history of the star-spangled banner and it's military roots. If memory serves there were black soldiers that volunteered for duty and died during the war of 1812 when it was written and I find it ironic that as a black man he feels he shouldn't have to stand for it.

5. He made the NBA, the Mavericks, and to a certain extent black athletes look bad for his actions, at least to those that don't know him personally.

What's truly sad is that he went from being an up and coming star player on a championship caliber team to being a trouble making player that you can't depend on who will embarrass his team and the league in just a couple of years.

[AHF]

If it gets overly political, I have no problem with Dol shutting this down.

Where does that stop then? I think that my view is at least moderately clear, Josh wasn't trying to hurt anyone by saying that he doesn't believe in the nat'l anthem, he didn't say anything about the troops which matters to me. He just implied that as a black man, he didn't feel like the American system didn't adequately represent him.

Can an employer punish an employee for ANYTHING that they disagree with? Should an employer make it mandatory that an employee hold his hand to his heart during a song? I mean honestly, where can you draw the line if you think he can be punished by his employer for privately (it was to a camera phone after all) not wanting to stand attention to the nat'l anthem? I just think that opens the door to any sort of discrimination possible.

Howard has several protections beyond simply protection from government intervension. First, he is part of a union that has negotiated a collective bargaining agreement that limits the NBA in terms of what it can or cannot do to discipline, fine, etc. a player. Second, he has a guaranteed contract that also will contain provisions on what narrow range of exceptions will allow the Mavs to terminate his contract (it may also contain some limitations on non-monetary discipline, although those are less likely). In short, Howard has some significant protections that will give him more flexibility than most employees.

Outside of a collective bargaining context or situation where the employee has a specific contract addressing the issue with the employer, an employer could require that every employee hold his hand to his heart during morning playings of Celine Dion if it wanted. Requiring that with something political is more risky because there could be a disparate impact on certain groups (i.e., if African-Americans are significantly more likely to object to holding their hands on their heart during a song then there is risk of a race or national origin discrimination claim unless there is some business necessity for this practice). The fact is, though, that non-government employers generally have the right to punish employee's for off-the-job public speech if they want. They generally don't because that creates significant worker dissatisfaction and because it doesn't generally make business sense to fire someone who makes money for you just because you don't like what they say away from work.

In most cases, however, an employer can fire you because of the color of your shirt, what you say, etc. Likewise, an employee can quit on the spot if he dislikes the color of the company's new logo, its new slogan, etc. It is called "employment at will."

[crimedog]

Howard has several protections beyond simply protection from government intervension. First, he is part of a union that has negotiated a collective bargaining agreement that limits the NBA in terms of what it can or cannot do to discipline, fine, etc. a player. Second, he has a guaranteed contract that also will contain provisions on what narrow range of exceptions will allow the Mavs to terminate his contract (it may also contain some limitations on non-monetary discipline, although those are less likely). In short, Howard has some significant protections that will give him more flexibility than most employees.

Outside of a collective bargaining context or situation where the employee has a specific contract addressing the issue with the employer, an employer could require that every employee hold his hand to his heart during morning playings of Celine Dion if it wanted. Requiring that with something political is more risky because there could be a disparate impact on certain groups (i.e., if African-Americans are significantly more likely to object to holding their hands on their heart during a song then there is risk of a race or national origin discrimination claim unless there is some business necessity for this practice). The fact is, though, that non-government employers generally have the right to punish employee's for off-the-job public speech if they want. They generally don't because that creates significant worker dissatisfaction and because it doesn't generally make business sense to fire someone who makes money for you just because you don't like what they say away from work.

In most cases, however, an employer can fire you because of the color of your shirt, what you say, etc. Likewise, an employee can quit on the spot if he dislikes the color of the company's new logo, its new slogan, etc. It is called "employment at will."

... but in this case do you agree that they should punish him for this, which seems to be the popular sentiment?

Do you think what he was doing was offensive or malicious? Or just a display of a lack of intelligence and an inability to express complex ideas?

I think what he was doing was well intentioned. I love my country, I stand for the national anthem, I also know that there is a lot of messed up stuff here and a history of even more messed up stuff. I think that expressing dissent to a camera phone without actually denigrating ANY individuals (this has NOTHING to do with servicemen and women) is not particularly offensive.

Off-topic, did you go to UK for law?

[Admin]

... but in this case do you agree that they should punish him for this, which seems to be the popular sentiment?

Do you think what he was doing was offensive or malicious? Or just a display of a lack of intelligence and an inability to express complex ideas?

I think what he was doing was well intentioned. I love my country, I stand for the national anthem, I also know that there is a lot of messed up stuff here and a history of even more messed up stuff. I think that expressing dissent to a camera phone without actually denigrating ANY individuals (this has NOTHING to do with servicemen and women) is not particularly offensive.

Off-topic, did you go to UK for law?

I know you were asking these questions of AHF but I thought I'd chime in as well.

If there is anything in his contract about conduct detrimental to the team or something similar then yes he should be punished accordingly. Agree with his actions or not, there is no disputing that he has created negative attention that involves the Mavericks.

This isn't a lack of intelligence thing, unless he was high I'm sure that he fully knew what he was doing at the time.

I think you are trying to let him off the hook by mentioning that he was expressing himself to a camera phone. If you consider that to be okay, would it also have been okay if there hadn't been a camera there? What if ESPN had been there with a real camera? To me the issue isn't the camera phone, it's statement he was trying to make.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion that this has nothing to do with servicemen and women or that it's not particularly offensive, but I do consider it (and I'm not alone) offensive and it does have something to do with the servicemen and women who have fought and died for our flag, which the song represents.

[crimedog]

I know you were asking these questions of AHF but I thought I'd chime in as well.

If there is anything in his contract about conduct detrimental to the team or something similar then yes he should be punished accordingly. Agree with his actions or not, there is no disputing that he has created negative attention that involves the Mavericks.

This isn't a lack of intelligence thing, unless he was high I'm sure that he fully knew what he was doing at the time.

I think you are trying to let him off the hook by mentioning that he was expressing himself to a camera phone. If you consider that to be okay, would it also have been okay if there hadn't been a camera there? What if ESPN had been there with a real camera? To me the issue isn't the camera phone, it's statement he was trying to make.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion that this has nothing to do with servicemen and women or that it's not particularly offensive, but I do consider it (and I'm not alone) offensive and it does have something to do with the servicemen and women who have fought and died for our flag, which the song represents.

Just asking them generally... appreciate diversity of opinion.

I think not standing at attention for the flag because you believe that you are making a stand against unjust social issues is acceptable. Again, Carlos/Smith in Mexico City (although they were both ostracized at the time... then again Jose Feliciano recieved death threats from former servicemen for his rendition, now famous, which was a little on the pop side) used the nat'l anthem as a forum to take a stand stand on some obscenely unjust treatment of blacks - where the camera phone comes into play is that Howard did something he thought was similar in a much less public forum, where the stupidity comes into play is his lack of eloquence in voicing his opinion.

I also think the national anthem represents more than just the military, it stands for the entire country and everything the country stands for. Same thing with the flag. You can appreciate people who have fought and died in the name of their country without agreeing, or even appreciating/respecting what that country stands for and how it treats you, no? As a poor black kid growing up in the rural south, I could imagine that America doesn't represent the same freedoms to him as it does to some. The fact that he overcame odds that most in his situation can't doesn't mean that he shouldn't be able to express dissatisfaction on behalf of his race, it really means the opposite, he has enough appeal that people will listen to him if he has something good to say on the subject. It's just unfortunate that his message came out so jumbled and stupid sounding.

(interesting aside on the anthem having military roots, I remember reading in HS history that both sides of the civil war claimed the song and the north actually changed the lyrics in their version and the version we sing today is the one the south used...)

I just realized I didn't say anything prescriptive. As said, I think Howard has shown himself to be an idiot but that this episode wasn't meant to hurt anyone as he was trying to be constructive... he just did a terrible job at it. The Mavs need to make it clear to him that if he is going to say something in public, say it right. Maybe send him to some sort of sensitivity training. In all honesty, even if Howard had articulated his position on racial inequality in the country very well, the Mavs would probably be unhappy as a lot of white people don't want to hear that. Fortunately he came off as an idiot so they won't have to look like a group that actively stifles activism and critical thought.

Edited September 19, 2008 by crimedog

[AHF]

Personally, this incident would rank lower than several others of his if I were Mark Cuban. I would be reading him the riot act about the party he threw a lot more than this. I would put him through some training to beat it into his head that he is a media story now and anything he says could end up on the news and that he needs to be aware of it. I would also stress how it would affect his pocket book and limit his endorsement opportunities. At the end of the day, though, I would not suspend him or fine him for something done away from the team and in what you would expect to be a non-public forum.

I would actually bring the whole team in and go over the Kobe phone incident and some others and stress that they are all public figures and will be scrutinized by the media and the public what they say because they are the faces of the team and stress that what they do affects the image of the Mavericks, etc.

[AHF]

Let me add, that if Howard's beef is really about racial injustice in this country and I were Mark Cuban that I would try to get him involved as a community resource for disadvantaged African-Americans in Dallas and try to turn it into a positive PR spin while simultaneously getting Howard involved in something that might help him mature and would help people in the process.

[Traceman]

Personally, this incident would rank lower than several others of his if I were Mark Cuban. I would be reading him the riot act about the party he threw a lot more than this. I would put him through some training to beat it into his head that he is a media story now and anything he says could end up on the news and that he needs to be aware of it. I would also stress how it would affect his pocket book and limit his endorsement opportunities. At the end of the day, though, I would not suspend him or fine him for something done away from the team and in what you would expect to be a non-public forum.

I would actually bring the whole team in and go over the Kobe phone incident and some others and stress that they are all public figures and will be scrutinized by the media and the public what they say because they are the faces of the team and stress that what they do affects the image of the Mavericks, etc.

I agree with you 100%. I don't think the team or the NBA should "punish" him for his statements but if I were Cuban, he and I would have a serious heart to heart about how what he says and does, both on and off the court, reflects on the team. His statement was idiotic but I think the ridicule that he is likely to endure this upcoming season from fans on the road will be more than enough "punishment" for him.

[crimedog]

Trace and AHF are on to it, saying what I wanted to say... just sounding better.

Who knows, maybe it'll stir up some conversation on the issues...

[mrhonline]

Well, don't shoot me, but I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

That said, I think I could do a lot better of a job explaining my rationale than Howard's lazy comments...

[Swish]

FWIW, without going further due to HS's political stance, I also refuse the pledge. Not the anthem, but the pledge.

[thefloydian]

I take total exeption to wht you have said and am offended! Why don't you and Josh Howard go to the foreign countries and defend our freedoms like many others have died doing. Freedon is not free and being born into this great country we all have a duty to respect our forefathers for what they went through.

The problems in this country stem today form the fact that people think they can act and do whatever whenever no matter who it hurts or infringes on. Most of us never went through the depression and don't have any idea of how simple life was so everything is taking for granted.

This train of thought will change one day when hard times hit. I know I am fired up here but there should be a sense of respect for those that take advantage of the freedoms those in the past fought and died for.

[mrhonline]

BTW, Mark Cuban posted some of the email addresses of the people who sent him racist emails about Howard.

Personally, I find Cuban's lack of professionalism in this situation to be more startling than Howard's comments. Maybe it's just me...

[Swish]

MrH, we may have more than a few things in common. Both Ron Paul revolutionists and anti-pledgers...this is not a very common group to be in.

[mrhonline]

Swish, did you go to the Rally for the Republic?

I actually had the money and ability for once, but not the time...

[DrReality]

BTW, Mark Cuban posted some of the email addresses of the people who sent him racist emails about Howard.

Personally, I find Cuban's lack of professionalism in this situation to be more startling than Howard's comments. Maybe it's just me...

Perfect example that money does not make you smart. Maybe just the opposite.

[crimedog]

Perfect example that money does not make you smart. Maybe just the opposite.

I think Mark's strengths and weaknesses are too often one and the same.

The same things that made him a brilliant business man, his confidence and self-promotion, are the things that piss people off when he speaks his mind on just about any issue.

[Plainview1981]

I understand you need to have some appreciation of it... But personally, I get tired of hearing this before every sporting event.

[Traceman]

BTW, Mark Cuban posted some of the email addresses of the people who sent him racist emails about Howard.

Personally, I find Cuban's lack of professionalism in this situation to be more startling than Howard's comments. Maybe it's just me...

Actually, I thought Cuban publishing the e-mail addresses of people who sent racist e-mail responses was quite hilarious. I get so sick and tired of people hiding behind the anonymity of a computer to spread racism and hate. I wonder how embarassed some of the knuckleheads who post on the different blogs at ajc.com would be if their identities could be tied to their comments. I think many people assume that those comments come from poor, uneducated folks but I'd bet the farm that a lot of those comments are made by some pretty successful people who would DIE if they had to answer for their comments in public.