Flip needs a short leash

[bronnt]

Josh Smith has a reputation for taking too many bad shots. Flip Murray has a WORSE reputation for the same thing, and for being a ball hog, besides.

Back in Seattle, Ray Allen (a man who has much more business keeping the ball in his hands than Flip) called Flip out for being a ball hog. This is nothing new.

Back in 2003, he once went 6 for 26 in a game against the San Antonio Spurs.

The simple fact that Josh Smith is a good player who takes too many ill-advised shots doesn't give Flip Murray, a more marginal player, the right to also take loads of ill-advised shots.

Joe Johnson is practically the opposite. On a better team, JJ could be one of the rare guards who shoots 48-49% and averages 20 points. He can't do that here because too often he's the guy with the ball when the shot clock is running out, and his only option is Smoove flashing to the three point line. Last year was one of his worst in FG%, and he still way, way outperformed Flip's career average.

Flip could be a useful piece on a team that has plenty of other bench scorers, and a coach who had the ability to reel him in by benching him anytime his shot wasn't falling. We just aren't that team, so Flip will probably give us some fourth quarter headaches this season.

[bronnt]

If he could be counted on to show up on a more regular basis, I'd be a big fan. I don't hate Smith. He could be a great player if he gave a rat's behind. I just wish he would play with some degree of consistency. He's been in the league long enough to maintain some degree of consistency, or when he's not on, exercise some self discipline, whether the coach maintains discipline or not. He should be beyond the "potential" attribute by now.

Most NBA players peak between the ages of 26-29. Josh Smith is 22.

Yes, we'll still be talking about potential for a couple more years, regardless of how much he blossoms.

[AHF]

Do you people realize that if more than 6 people worked for Hawksquawk it'd be liable for a hostile work enviroment lawsuit?

LOL

Drama

You need more than 6 employees to be covered under most civil rights laws, like Title VII, the ADA, ADEA, etc. (which are the laws under which HWE claims are typically brought).

[Duff_Man]

why are we having a smith vs murray conversation? thats like comparing Jay Z to Lil Zane

Aw man...so they both stink?

[PureGreatness]

Aw man...so they both stink?

i thought everybody was a jay z fan

[Diesel]

You're right, but it doesn't change the fact that playing our starting PF for over 2/3 of his minutes at SF is hardly pigeon-holing him at his best position.

Dude...

Murray played 32 minutes.

JJ played 40 minutes..

Zaza played about 16 minutes.

Bibby played over 30 minutes

and Law played almost 20 minutes.

Show me how Smith doesn't play PF more than 2/3s of the game.

[AtLaS]

Obviously you don't read anything I have written. My entire point has been how stupid it was to call out Murray for one single solitary preseason game, and how hypocritical it is, when the player he is being compared to is the poster child for taking momentum killing, ill-advised shots.

The player he's being compared to? YOU are the only one comparing him to Smith. We have repeatedly said that Flip is taking shots from the entire TEAM. Please show me where someone that you are arguing with has compared Flip to Smith ONLY. Again, I'm sorry but you can't read.

It's just one freaking preseason game. It wasn't like Murray did a typical Josh Smith like 4 for 14 night.

If 4 for 14 was typical for Smith, than he'd have shot 25% on the season. You have an agenda, let it go because you are obviously wrong.

I'm going to caps lock / bold this so you won't confuse my words with comparing to Josh Smith

**I AM NOT REFERRING TO JOSH SMITH IN THE WORDS BELOW**

Flip has been taking tons of shots all preseason. We don't want that. You will realize that after you see him play for a while. I know all there is to know about Flip because I have seen him play for years, I KNOW how he is, it's why he was so easy to sign and why he was still an FA in August. The fact that he has taken the 2nd most shots on our team is not a good sign. Remember, that this has nothing to do with Josh Smith. Do you understand?

[frankthetank966]

Tonight Flip took 13 shots, Horford 6 and Smith 9. That isn't going to work. He took 7 three pointers for chrissakes and he is a career 28% shooter from 3.

Woody needs to nip this in the bud and let this guy know if he starts jacking up too many shots he is going to be sitting.

Wow 7 three pointers! Thats unheard of. Maybe Woody asked him to try and see how his deep-range shot was. Imagine if Flip could come in and hit 40% from behind the line. That would be a nice addition.

[Watchman]

The player he's being compared to? YOU are the only one comparing him to Smith. We have repeatedly said that Flip is taking shots from the entire TEAM. Please show me where someone that you are arguing with has compared Flip to Smith ONLY. Again, I'm sorry but you can't read.

If 4 for 14 was typical for Smith, than he'd have shot 25% on the season. You have an agenda, let it go because you are obviously wrong.

I'm going to caps lock / bold this so you won't confuse my words with comparing to Josh Smith

**I AM NOT REFERRING TO JOSH SMITH IN THE WORDS BELOW**

Flip has been taking tons of shots all preseason. We don't want that. You will realize that after you see him play for a while. I know all there is to know about Flip because I have seen him play for years, I KNOW how he is, it's why he was so easy to sign and why he was still an FA in August. The fact that he has taken the 2nd most shots on our team is not a good sign. Remember, that this has nothing to do with Josh Smith. Do you understand?

May bee ah kaint reed, butt the numbers dont lye.

Noat - It looks a lot pertier befour you submit. May bee with yore jiant brane you can help me im-port ex-ell spred sheets beter.

Player Min FGA FTA Pts FGA/Min Pts/Min Pts/FGA Pts/(FGA+FTA)

Johnson 197 84 19 108 0.426396 0.548223 1.285714 1.048544

Murray 188 64 27 93 0.340426 0.494681 1.453125 1.021978

Smith 187 63 32 82 0.336898 0.438503 1.301587 0.863158

Law 186 50 21 75 0.268817 0.403226 1.500000 1.056338

Horford 192 54 22 71 0.281250 0.369792 1.314815 0.934211

Evans 151 50 16 57 0.331126 0.377483 1.140000 0.863636

Bibby 102 45 2 41 0.441176 0.401961 0.911111 0.872340

Pachulia 120 28 33 57 0.233333 0.475000 2.035714 0.934426

Williams 98 29 10 37 0.295918 0.377551 1.275862 0.948718

Edited October 22, 2008 by Watchman

[DJlaysitup]

As I mentioned in a previous post - the new depth will be great if they don't get selfish.

Flip i s a prime contender for being selfish. Once the regular season starts up - when they keep stats that make contracts for these semi-old dudes - we may start missing JC......JMHO.

[jhay610]

Watch, I almost passed out trying to read that but luckily I was able to quickly recognize what those stats were before my eyes turned inside out...

As some others have pointed out - again, why are you trying to make a comparison between players based off of one preseason when they both have been in the league for several years (Flip has 6 years of reg. season stats to pull from).

That sample size is too small, besides the fact that it's preseason and nobody cares.

I expect Josh to improve last year's numbers to around 18-20 ppg/ 8 boards / 2.x blocks / 1-2 steals per game and I expect Flip to shoot alot. This is based off of years of data and the expectation that Josh will continue to improve throughout his early twenties, while Flip is nearly 30 and is a career journeyman from whom we know what to expect. This year's preseason stats do not factor into my expectations whatsoever.

Just say you are not a Josh Smith fan and leave it at that, there is no law that says you have to like J.Smith in order to be a Hawks fan. Trying to back up your feelings with empirical data from the 2008 preseason just ruins your credibility.

Edited October 22, 2008 by jhay610

[exodus]

Wow 7 three pointers! Thats unheard of. Maybe Woody asked him to try and see how his deep-range shot was. Imagine if Flip could come in and hit 40% from behind the line. That would be a nice addition.

Flip has about as much chance of becoming a 40% 3 pt shooter as Smith does.

[DrReality]

He needs to use the other parts of his game, IE driving to the basket, and not rely so much on his shooting outside shots.

Heated interaction on the HS. . . . . . season must be near.

[Watchman]

Watch, I almost passed out trying to read that but luckily I was able to quickly recognize what those stats were before my eyes turned inside out...

As some others have pointed out - again, why are you trying to make a comparison between players based off of one preseason when they both have been in the league for several years (Flip has 6 years of reg. season stats to pull from).

That sample size is too small, besides the fact that it's preseason and nobody cares.

I expect Josh to improve last year's numbers to around 18-20 ppg/ 8 boards / 2.x blocks / 1-2 steals per game and I expect Flip to shoot alot. This is based off of years of data and the expectation that Josh will continue to improve throughout his early twenties, while Flip is nearly 30 and is a career journeyman from whom we know what to expect. This year's preseason stats do not factor into my expectations whatsoever.

Just say you are not a Josh Smith fan and leave it at that, there is no law that says you have to like J.Smith in order to be a Hawks fan. Trying to back up your feelings with empirical data from the 2008 preseason just ruins your credibility.

I don't really think the data in my post singles out Josh or anyone else for that matter. As you may recall, the post started by Exodus blasting Murray for shooting 5 for 13. Murray is in a group of five players that have between 185 and 200 minutes in the preseason. He has taken the second most shots (by one shot) of that group of five. As it is his job to provide scoring off the bench, what is the big deal? As for the preseason, he has been more effective than some of the more high profile players. He is shooting 50% and 40% from 2 point and 3 point range. I am simply saying it's a bit premature to go off on the guy for one mediocre shooting preseason game. I have never implied or attempted to imply that Murray will shoot 50% for the season or 40% from 3 pt range for the season. I'm not really clear on why you think my data was attempting to make any point about Smith in particular. I was basically saying Murray isn't the most shot happy guy on the court and neither is he the least shot happy. As the minutes are distributed in preseason more evenly than they are in the regular season, I would not expect Murray to shoot more than players taking more minutes. As for my "credibility", I really don't see how credibility is an issue on a message board. None of our opinions amount to a hill of beans. "Credibility" is a non-issue as far as I can tell.

Atlas seemed to delight in repeating that I couldn't read and/or comprehend (sounds like some sort of "hating" to me). Perhaps I just might not be as stupid as he seems to suggest.

As for me, I hope Horford gets and takes a lot more shots. I think in the long run he could produce quite similarly to a Buck Williams or Elton Brand (I know, maybe a bit of a stretch there) if given the opportunity. However, he does not seem to be as much of an integral part of the offense as I would prefer.

My whole frustration with Smith is that he is so inconsistent and I find it mind boggling that so many on this board and in the general population equate spectacular dunks with being a great player. I think he could be a great player, but he might have to use something besides his jumping ability to get there.

End of story.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Watchman

[exodus]

As you may recall, the post started by Exodus blasting Murray for shooting 5 for 13.

You show again that you have no clue.

My problem with Flip isn't that he shot only 5-13. My problem is that he took over twice as many shots as Horford. He took more shots from 3 than Horford took total which is ridiculous considering he is a career 28% 3 pt shooter.

I'm not really clear on why you think my data was attempting to make any point about Smith in particular.

You have mentioned Smith in virtually every post in this thread yet you aren't clear why we think you are singling out Smith?

" I was basically saying Murray isn't the most shot happy guy on the court and neither is he the least shot happy."

The only guy who has taken more shots than Murray is our lone All-Star. Last season Flip took one shot for every 2.4 minutes on the floor. If that isn't a shot happy clip for a career journeyman i don't know what is.

"My whole frustration with Smith is that he is so inconsistent and I find it mind boggling that so many on this board and in the general population equate spectacular dunks with being a great player."

Smith scored only 2.7 ppg on dunks so he must be doing something else to be able to average 17 ppg.

Not to mention being top 3 in blocks every year at a generously listed 6'9".

[Watchman]

You show again that you have no clue. AND YOU SHOW YOU HAVE EVEN LESS OF A CLUE.

My problem with Flip isn't that he shot only 5-13. My problem is that he took over twice as many shots as Horford. He took more shots from 3 than Horford took total which is ridiculous considering he is a career 28% 3 pt shooter. TAKE UP THE OFFENSE WITH THE COACH. NONE OF US CAN HELP YOU WITH THAT.

You have mentioned Smith in virtually every post in this thread yet you aren't clear why we think you are singling out Smith? WELL IT DIDN'T MENTION SMITH IN THE POST THAT HAD THE STATS IN IT, WHICH WAS THE POST THAT WAS BEING REFERRED TO

" I was basically saying Murray isn't the most shot happy guy on the court and neither is he the least shot happy."

The only guy who has taken more shots than Murray is our lone All-Star. I ALREADY ADDRESSED THIS AND ADDRESS IT AGAIN BELOW. NEVER LET FACTS GET IN YOUR WAY THOUGH. Last season Flip took one shot for every 2.4 minutes on the floor. If that isn't a shot happy clip for a career journeyman i don't know what is. WHAT PART OF "PRESEASON" DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND? I NEVER REFERRED TO LAST YEAR, THAT WAS YOUR ISSUE.

"My whole frustration with Smith is that he is so inconsistent and I find it mind boggling that so many on this board and in the general population equate spectacular dunks with being a great player."

Smith scored only 2.7 ppg on dunks so he must be doing something else to be able to average 17 ppg. YEAH, MOST PEOPLE WHO TAKE A LOT OF SHOTS SCORE MORE THAN THOSE WHO DON"T. EVERY TEAM NEEDS A CAREER 44% SHOOTER AT THE POWER FORWARD SPOT.

Not to mention being top 3 in blocks every year at a generously listed 6'9". YES, WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT JOSH IS A GREAT LEAPER.

Obviously it is you who cannot/will not read. Smith and Murray have played approximately the same amount of minutes. Murray has taken one more shot than Smith. JJ has taken 20 shots more than Murray in about 10 minutes more playing time. Big deal. I don't see how Murray is shot happy based on that. As for this preseason (which I have repeatedly stated was the subject of my comments for those of you who are willingly or unwillingly illiterate) Murray takes a shot about every three minutes. About the same as Josh. Significantly less than Joe. He is scoring over 1.4 points for every shot he takes. Better than Joe, better than Smith, better than almost everyone on the team (***again, for the preseason***)

[PlayaPat420]

i thought everybody was a jay z fan

In the words of the great NAS: "F*** Jay-Z!!!"

[exodus]

TAKE UP THE OFFENSE WITH THE COACH. NONE OF US CAN HELP YOU WITH THAT.

None of Flips previous coaches could help with it either. The GMs' solution was to let Murray walk.

WELL IT DIDN'T MENTION SMITH IN THE POST THAT HAD THE STATS IN IT, WHICH WAS THE POST THAT WAS BEING REFERRED TO

Funny i could have sworn i saw Smith's name in that post (and virtually every other one you have made in this thread) right under Murray's name.

"WHAT PART OF "PRESEASON" DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND? I NEVER REFERRED TO LAST YEAR, THAT WAS YOUR ISSUE."

I am referring to his whole career. This preseason is a continuation of the same pattern.

YEAH, MOST PEOPLE WHO TAKE A LOT OF SHOTS SCORE MORE THAN THOSE WHO DON"T. EVERY TEAM NEEDS A CAREER 44% SHOOTER AT THE POWER FORWARD SPOT.

It is pretty funny how you criticize someone for inefficient scoring at the same time you defend one of the most inefficient scoring pgs in the league.

Smith hasn't been a pf the whole time he has been in the league. His rookie year he started at the 2. He is only starting his 5th season after coming into the NBA out of high school. Plus his forte is defense.

How many guys from the 2004 draft class are outperforming Smith?

[Watchman]

None of Flips previous coaches could help with it either. The GMs' solution was to let Murray walk.

Funny i could have sworn i saw Smith's name in that post (and virtually every other one you have made in this thread) right under Murray's name. YEAH I SUPPOSE HIS NAME WAS IN THE LEFT MARGIN OF THE TABLE. ALONG WITH MOST OF HIS TEAMMATES NAMES. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DELETE SMITH'S STATS?

It is pretty funny how you criticize someone for inefficient scoring at the same time you defend one of the most inefficient scoring pgs in the league. SINCE WHEN DID FLIP BECOME A PG? BESIDES, I'M NOT DEFENDING FLIP AS MUCH AS I'M QUESTIONING YOUR HYPOCRISY.

Smith hasn't been a pf the whole time he has been in the league. His rookie year he started at the 2. He is only starting his 5th season after coming into the NBA out of high school. Plus his forte is defense. WEAK SIDE BLOCKS AND MEDIOCRE MAN UP DEFENSE HARDLY COMPRISES A FORTE.

How many guys from the 2004 draft class are outperforming Smith? WELL, WITHOUT DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH D. HOWARD, AL JEFFERSON, KEVIN MARTIN, IGUADOLA, DENG, OKAFOR, GORDON ARE DOING PRETTY WELL. I WOULD CERTAINLY RATHER HAVE HOWARD, JEFFERSON, AND MARTIN THAN SMITH. IGUADOLA AND DENG CERTAINLY GIVE HIM A RUN FOR HIS MONEY. IF OKAFOR WASN'T SO INJURY PRONE, THERE'S NO QUESTION I'D RATHER HAVE HIM. GORDON'S STRICTLY A GUNNER, BUT HE SHOWS UP MOST NIGHTS.

Well, I'm certainly bored with this thread. I'll leave it for you so you can have multiple Smoove-asms. Good luck on your next 13,000 posts. Keep at it and you'll build that sense of self importance right on up.

[exodus]

YEAH I SUPPOSE HIS NAME WAS IN THE LEFT MARGIN OF THE TABLE. ALONG WITH MOST OF HIS TEAMMATES NAMES. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DELETE SMITH'S STATS?

Maybe you could point to one post in this thread that wasn't bashing Smith in some way. I sure missed it.

If that post wasn't meant to reference Smith then what was it for?

SINCE WHEN DID FLIP BECOME A PG? BESIDES, I'M NOT DEFENDING FLIP AS MUCH AS I'M QUESTIONING YOUR HYPOCRISY.

Flip has always been a combo guard and was brought in here to back up the point primarily. He isn't going to get much time backing up JJ at the 2 since JJ plays 40 minutes a game and is backed up by Mo.

As far as my hypocrisy that is nothing but a product of your imagination. I have been constantly ragging on Smith about taking too many long jumpers. But since that doesn't suit your argument you just ignore it.

"WELL, WITHOUT DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH D. HOWARD, AL JEFFERSON, KEVIN MARTIN, IGUADOLA, DENG, OKAFOR, GORDON ARE DOING PRETTY WELL."

Iggy, Deng and Gordon (who is still unsigned) are debatable but even if they have outplayed Smith that is only 7 guys. Smith was drafted at 17. He has outperformed his draft position by a mile.

"WEAK SIDE BLOCKS AND MEDIOCRE MAN UP DEFENSE HARDLY COMPRISES A FORTE.

"

Nobody gets to be 2nd in the league in blocks by just getting weakside blocks. He gets them every way possible. He is probably the best in the league at stopping the opposing teams fast break with his shotblocking ability. He is consistently one of the first players to get back on defense.

There is a reason the team gave up 7 ppg fewer when Smith was playing.