Flip needs a short leash

[Watchman]

Maybe you could point to one post in this thread that wasn't bashing Smith in some way. I sure missed it.

If that post wasn't meant to reference Smith then what was it for?

Flip has always been a combo guard and was brought in here to back up the point primarily. He isn't going to get much time backing up JJ at the 2 since JJ plays 40 minutes a game and is backed up by Mo.

As far as my hypocrisy that is nothing but a product of your imagination. I have been constantly ragging on Smith about taking too many long jumpers. But since that doesn't suit your argument you just ignore it.

"WELL, WITHOUT DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH D. HOWARD, AL JEFFERSON, KEVIN MARTIN, IGUADOLA, DENG, OKAFOR, GORDON ARE DOING PRETTY WELL."

Iggy, Deng and Gordon (who is still unsigned) are debatable but even if they have outplayed Smith that is only 7 guys. Smith was drafted at 17. He has outperformed his draft position by a mile.

"WEAK SIDE BLOCKS AND MEDIOCRE MAN UP DEFENSE HARDLY COMPRISES A FORTE.

"

Nobody gets to be 2nd in the league in blocks by just getting weakside blocks. He gets them every way possible. He is probably the best in the league at stopping the opposing teams fast break with his shotblocking ability. He is consistently one of the first players to get back on defense.

There is a reason the team gave up 7 ppg fewer when Smith was playing.

See post number 69 above. The only reference to Smith was his name was included in the stats ***along with other teammates playing substantial preseason minutes with a significant role in the offense.*** Any other references to Smith were made by the poster to whom I was responding.

In the meanwhile, let's all hold hands and sing "kum ba yah."

[Swish]

AND YOU SHOW YOU HAVE EVEN LESS OF A CLUE.

Wow. That was just a classic comeback.

If we talked like this on politics we'd be in huge trouble.

And anyway, comparing Josh and Flip is like comparing creamy and crunchy peanut butter...they aren't even on the same level, so shut up. ;)

[Swish]

See post number 69 above. The only reference to Smith was his name was included in the stats ***along with other teammates playing substantial preseason minutes with a significant role in the offense.*** Any other references to Smith were made by the poster to whom I was responding.

In the meanwhile, let's all hold hands and sing "kum ba yah."

I thought you were done with this thread?

Well, I'm certainly bored with this thread. I'll leave it for you so you can have multiple Smoove-asms. Good luck on your next 13,000 posts. Keep at it and you'll build that sense of self importance right on up.

[HawkItus]

Geez,

Can we wait for the regular season to start before we make these assumptions? If there is one thing I'm pretty confident about when it comes to Woody is that he won't let a chucker ruin this team. He is pretty adamant about taking bad shots and getting pulled.

[bronnt]

Geez,

Can we wait for the regular season to start before we make these assumptions? If there is one thing I'm pretty confident about when it comes to Woody is that he won't let a chucker ruin this team. He is pretty adamant about taking bad shots and getting pulled.

Exactly when has Josh Smith been benched for taking too many jumpers? He's one of the worst in the league, yet every year, he's in the upper half in attempts. Despite only hitting on about 28% of his jump shots last year, he still was well over 500 shot attempts.

The fact that Woodson is the coach is exactly what worries me about having Flip on the roster.

[jhay610]

See post number 69 above. The only reference to Smith was his name was included in the stats ***along with other teammates playing substantial preseason minutes with a significant role in the offense.*** Any other references to Smith were made by the poster to whom I was responding.

In the meanwhile, let's all hold hands and sing "kum ba yah."

What an a-hole I must be for assuming that you were trying to prove something about Smith in that post. Never mind that your other 40 posts in the thread were all about Smith and the caption in the referenced post stated that the "stats don't lie."

In retrospect, I'm not really sure why you posted those stats in this thread seeing as you weren't referencing him. Maybe you should have started a new "Hey look at these preseason stats!" thread on Homecourt so that we wouldn't all get so confused.

[jhay610]

The fact that Woodson is the coach is exactly what worries me about having Flip on the roster.

And you know how Woody loves his vets, just like his old buddy Larry Brown. He is more likely to give Flip a longer leash than he would be a younger player.

[exodus]

Exactly when has Josh Smith been benched for taking too many jumpers? He's one of the worst in the league, yet every year, he's in the upper half in attempts. Despite only hitting on about 28% of his jump shots last year, he still was well over 500 shot attempts.

The fact that Woodson is the coach is exactly what worries me about having Flip on the roster.

QFT

I have bashed Woody for not being able to reign in Smith, who has no business shooting so many 3s. I am not even remotely confident that he can reign in Flip. Nobody else has.

[AtLaS]

Any other references to Smith were made by the poster to whom I was responding.

LOL this must be a joke. YOU are the one who has compared him to ONLY Smith the entire time. None of us did.

Our entire point has been that Flip is an inefficient chucker and has been his entire career. He brings nothing else to the table if he isn't scoring. Of course we don't want Smith taking dumb shots, that's a completely different topic. But you obviously still don't get it after 5 pages, so I'm sure you won't now.

Your main point is essentially "I'd rather have Shaq shooting my free throws than Ben Wallace".

[Traceman]

Tonight Flip took 13 shots, Horford 6 and Smith 9. That isn't going to work. He took 7 three pointers for chrissakes and he is a career 28% shooter from 3.

Woody needs to nip this in the bud and let this guy know if he starts jacking up too many shots he is going to be sitting.

I was at that game and I thought Flip was shooting too much early in the game (mostly because his shot wasn't falling not because he was taking bad shots). That said, he did pick it up later in the game and he helped get us back in the game.

This notion that he does nothing if he is not scoring is not accurate at all. He made several very nice defensive plays and he actually played more like the PG when he was in the backcourt with Acie than Acie did. He brought the ball up against pressure and initiated the offense while Acie played more like the SG (which reminds me, JJ also brought the ball up against pressure with both Bibby and Acie on the floor - I hoped that having a real PG would allow JJ to rest coming up the floor but I guess not). Flip also got in the lane and made several GREAT passes to our big guys and our guards but they missed the shots. He should have had at least 4 more assists.

I wish Acie would adpot Flip's mentality about taking the ball to the hole. I think he would be FAR more effective if he would and he would create easier opportnities for his teammates. Flip definitely ain't scared to take it to the rack or to pull the trigger on the shot. Acie needs to think like that.

Flip is catching a lot of criticism but he has been more effective than Mo so far and honestly, from what I've seen, he seems more ready to get the primary BU minutes at PG than Acie does.

[DJlaysitup]

I was at that game and I thought Flip was shooting too much early in the game (mostly because his shot wasn't falling not because he was taking bad shots). That said, he did pick it up later in the game and he helped get us back in the game.

Thing is - as much as we pester Woody about riding his shooting horse (JJ) too much...do we really want to pin much of our hopes on Flip? Sure Flip wants to "take it to the next level" and get a big contract - but if he just doesn't have the talent/skill to do it we don't want to see the L's piling up while he is jacking shots and p!ssing off the rest of the team.

Woody should be able to handle it - he puts guys in and takes guys out.

[Traceman]

Thing is - as much as we pester Woody about riding his shooting horse (JJ) too much...do we really want to pin much of our hopes on Flip? Sure Flip wants to "take it to the next level" and get a big contract - but if he just doesn't have the talent/skill to do it we don't want to see the L's piling up while he is jacking shots and p!ssing off the rest of the team.

Woody should be able to handle it - he puts guys in and takes guys out.

I don't think we are going to be pinning THAT much on Flip. He's a role player. Right now, he is probably the 9th man off the bench behind Mo, Zaza and Acie. In his BEST case scenario, he becomes the 6th man/designated Microwave off the bench but even if he gets that role, it won't be any more important than what any of the other bench guys bring. Whatever he does, he won't be as important as any of our starters and whatever he does, he won't be the reason losses are piling up.

[HawkItus]

Exactly when has Josh Smith been benched for taking too many jumpers? He's one of the worst in the league, yet every year, he's in the upper half in attempts. Despite only hitting on about 28% of his jump shots last year, he still was well over 500 shot attempts.

The fact that Woodson is the coach is exactly what worries me about having Flip on the roster.

Josh is a different story, but still, I recall several times when Smith did something dumb and got pulled. Unfortunately, Smith has become our defense. We give up some ridiculous number more points per minute when he's not on the floor. This makes Woody pulling his leash a little tricky in a close game. But, Flip isn't Smith and doesn't bring as much to the defensive side of the ball.

[exodus]

I wish Acie would adpot Flip's mentality about taking the ball to the hole. I think he would be FAR more effective if he would and he would create easier opportnities for his teammates.

That is pretty funny considering that Acie was taking it to the basket all last year. He just wasn't finishing that well and when he passed he was passing to a lot of guys who couldn't make a basket.

Acie's big problem last year (besides injuries) was his inability to make a jumper.

We must have a different view of backup pg duties if you think it is ok for a backup pg to shoot 7 treys when he is a career 28% shooter from 3.

I don't think we are going to be pinning THAT much on Flip. He's a role player. Right now, he is probably the 9th man off the bench behind Mo, Zaza and Acie.

i would prefer our role player not to take twice as many shots as Horford.

Flip is catching a lot of criticism but he has been more effective than Mo so far and honestly, from what I've seen (in preseason), he seems more ready to get the primary BU minutes at PG than Acie does.

The problem is that he has never played the point well his entire career. If you think he is going to suddenly going to start playing it well now you are much more optimistic than me. You might as well say Smith will suddenly become a 3 pt marksman.

[Cwell]

Geez,

Can we wait for the regular season to start before we make these assumptions? If there is one thing I'm pretty confident about when it comes to Woody is that he won't let a chucker ruin this team. He is pretty adamant about taking bad shots and getting pulled.

um he never pulls Bibby and he's been bricking left and right since the playoffs started last season and it hasn't stopped. He never benches Smith for it,he never pulled Lue for it.He'd never pull an ice cold Joe Johnson either,but if somebody like Acie misses one shot he's quick to pull them.

[Traceman]

That is pretty funny considering that Acie was taking it to the basket all last year. He just wasn't finishing that well and when he passed he was passing to a lot of guys who couldn't make a basket.

Pretty funny? Try hilarious! You have got to be kidding me! What is the point of getting to the rim if you can't finish or create an easy shot for your teammate? You act like Acie was breaking people down off the dribble and then getting all the way to the rim only to miss an easy layup (or to dish the ball to Smoove or Al and watch them miss the layup). That was hardly the case. He couldn't finish because he was not strong enough or crafty enough to get a quality shot off among the trees.

"Acie's big problem last year (besides injuries) was his inability to make a jumper. "

That was ONE of his problems. The bigger problem was his refusal to TAKE a jumper. He was so afraid to make a mistake that he did nothing.

We must have a different view of backup pg duties if you think it is ok for a backup pg to shoot 7 treys when he is a career 28% shooter from 3.

He took 7 treys in ONE game. In the other 6 preseason games he was 6-13 from 3 (which is pretty dang good). Besides, all Acie did was stand around and watch for that ENTIRE game. He did NOTHING. He was 0-2 with no rebounds and 1 assist in 19 minutes. Flip HAD to shoot when he was in the game with Acie because Acie wasn't doing jack. In addition, why does Flip (or JJ) have to bring the ball up the court when Acie is also in the game? I certainly would want my backup PG to be able to confidently handle a little token pressure.

i would prefer our role player not to take twice as many shots as Horford.

That might be true most of the time but when you see Dwight "The Manimal" Howard throwing Al's attempt at a turnaround J into the 10th row, you might be hesitant to give it to him a lot in the low post in that matchup.

Flip may not be a pure PG but he sure as heck played the point well against us last year when we went to Indy last April desperately needing a win at the time and he lit us up for 20 pts, 10 assists and 3 rebounds in 30 minutes and Indy kicked our butts. He will certainly have up and down shooting games at PG but he handles the ball well and he defends well. Besides, we would not be asking him to START at PG nor even play huge minutes there. His job would be to come in and provide a spark in relief of Bibby. If Acie isn't up to the task (hopefully he will be but we'll see), I think Flip will handle it just fine.

[Cwell]

Acie had no problem bringing the ball up the court,that's Woody. Joe brings it up when Bibby is in all the time. Once on Monday we had 2 PG's in the game and the SG still kept bringing the ball up. Remember last year when He kept having Childress bring it up,even though it never worked and the offense blew?

[Traceman]

Acie had no problem bringing the ball up the court,that's Woody. Joe brings it up when Bibby is in all the time. Once on Monday we had 2 PG's in the game and the SG still kept bringing the ball up. Remember last year when He kept having Childress bring it up,even though it never worked and the offense blew?

I don't know for sure what it is but I don't like it. It looked to me like Woody thought JJ was having an easier time bringing it up against pressure than Bibby was (maybe he was) and the same goes for Flip and Acie. Actually, I mind it less with Flip than I do with JJ because I don't want to see JJ wearing down in the 4th because he had to do extra work in the 1st. You are right though, that could be more about Woody than Acie.

[gsuteke]

drama

[crimedog]

I don't know for sure what it is but I don't like it. It looked to me like Woody thought JJ was having an easier time bringing it up against pressure than Bibby was (maybe he was) and the same goes for Flip and Acie. Actually, I mind it less with Flip than I do with JJ because I don't want to see JJ wearing down in the 4th because he had to do extra work in the 1st. You are right though, that could be more about Woody than Acie.

You may be right about Woody's thoughts but I think Bibby does a better job of bringing the ball up and initiating the offense with more ticks on the clock left, even if that means just handing the ball off to Joe.

The more Joe works off the ball, the more looks we can throw at opponents because Joe is by far and away our most consistently dangerous outside shooter.

EDIT: and that doesn't even take into account the wear and tear factor of Joe trying to beat guys the length of the floor on every trip.

Edited October 23, 2008 by crimedog