The ultimate curse of Knight isn't Chris Paul...

[mrhonline]

Let's remove hindsight from the equation.

What's stupid about filling a desperate need?

IS it more stupid to fill a desperate need or to take a player who plays a position that we already have filled.?

I'll play.

For one, there were MANY 'Squawkers at the time who didn't think that Shelden filled a position of need. The Hawks needed a legit center, and Shelden wasn't that. He definitely was supposed to be a rebounder and bruiser, though.

Two, there was very little to lose by not trading down to get him. To this day I'm still angry at Knight for not trading down for Shelden.

[Traceman]

Let's remove hindsight from the equation.

What's stupid about filling a desperate need?

IS it more stupid to fill a desperate need or to take a player who plays a position that we already have filled.?

Shelden didn't actually fill our need though. We needed a 7 footer who could rebound, defend and provide a physical presence in the paint. Shelden was always too small and unathletic to do that at the NBA level. I HOPED that he could after we drafted him but it was clear that he was never going to be anything other than a jouryneyman big man at best after his first year.

When teams trade a player in the draft like Anfernee Hardaway for C Webb or Antawn Jamison for Vince Carter, those are trades that make at least SOME sense because the talent was somewhat comparable. Comparing Shelden to Brandon Roy is like comparing Darko to Dwayne Wade.

[exodus]

I think mrh started this thread just to bring Diesel out of the woodwork.

[Diesel]

I'll play.

For one, there were MANY 'Squawkers at the time who didn't think that Shelden filled a position of need. The Hawks needed a legit center, and Shelden wasn't that. He definitely was supposed to be a rebounder and bruiser, though.

Two, there was very little to lose by not trading down to get him. To this day I'm still angry at Knight for not trading down for Shelden.

The fact of the matter is that Shelden had the very same attributes as Horf did a year later... Horf is just a better more coachable players.

Moreover, there were no 7 footers in that draft worthy of the pick.

[Diesel]

Paul is the best PG in the game but Roy is a weak duplication of NOBODY. That kid can play and he will be an All Star every year for quite some time.

Uhm... Trace... Roy won't be an allstar this year...

I can give you 6 guards out of the west that will make that team before Roy's name comes up:

Kobe, Billups, Nash, Deron, Paul, Parker, and Kmart...

and if he don't watch out, he will get squeaked out by Jason the Jet Terry.

[Traceman]

The fact of the matter is that Shelden had the very same attributes as Horf did a year later... Horf is just a better more coachable players.

Moreover, there were no 7 footers in that draft worthy of the pick.

You have got to be kidding! Horford might be slightly undersized for a CENTER but he has prototypical PF size. He is two inches taller than Shelden and he is a FAR better athlete. Al was the CONSENSUS 3rd best player in the draft. Some pundits didn't have Shelden in the top 10 in a FAR weaker draft.

Saying Shelden had the same attributes as Horford is like saying Solo had the same attibutes as Mutombo.

You're right, there were no 7 footers in that draft worthy of the pick which is why BK should have taken Roy and found a big man via trade.

[Traceman]

Uhm... Trace... Roy won't be an allstar this year...

I can give you 6 guards out of the west that will make that team before Roy's name comes up:

Kobe, Billups, Nash, Deron, Paul, Parker, and Kmart...

and if he don't watch out, he will get squeaked out by Jason the Jet Terry.

Put the pipe down. No way K Mart gets in before he does and neither will JT. In addition, no way the coaches and players vote two PHO guys (Amare and Nash), two SA guys (Duncan and Parker) and two DEN guys (Billups and Carmelo) over Roy when POR currently has the 2nd best record in the West. Roy will be there.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Traceman

[AHF]

Two, there was very little to lose by not trading down to get him. To this day I'm still angry at Knight for not trading down for Shelden.

That is what makes the draft decision inexcusable. Picking up a later first round pick (Rajon Rondo, Marcus Williams, etc.) for trading back would have made a ton of sense. There had to be teams later in the draft who would have leaped for Roy or Gay.

[Packfill]

I didn't have any predetermined opinion when I started this thread, so I can certainly understand those disagreeing because Paul is an MVP candidate...

...but I do think people are selling Roy short a bit. His numbers last year at his age were spectacular for a guard, and relatively similar to the numbers that pre-injury Penny Hardaway was putting up.

Isn't Roy older then Chris Paul?

[GST]

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. The way the Shelden pick was handled tells me that Shelden was not BK's pick. What ever else you might think about him, BK repeatedly would not show his hand until he absolutely had to, except for the Shelden pick. I fully believe someone else made that decision.

[mrhonline]

I think mrh started this thread just to bring Diesel out of the woodwork.

:top secret:

I should've had a poll...

[Diesel]

You have got to be kidding! Horford might be slightly undersized for a CENTER but he has prototypical PF size. He is two inches taller than Shelden and he is a FAR better athlete. Al was the CONSENSUS 3rd best player in the draft. Some pundits didn't have Shelden in the top 10 in a FAR weaker draft.

Saying Shelden had the same attributes as Horford is like saying Solo had the same attibutes as Mutombo.

You're right, there were no 7 footers in that draft worthy of the pick which is why BK should have taken Roy and found a big man via trade.

Saying Al was a consensus 3rd pick is meaningless.. they were in different drafts. You say Shelden's draft was weaker....I don't think so I guess time will tell but getting Gay, Farmar, Rondo as late as they went hasn't been comparable in the 07 draft yet. IN fact, many of the 07 draftees are still waiting to be developed.

[Diesel]

Put the pipe down. No way K Mart gets in before he does and neither will JT. In addition, no way the coaches and players vote two PHO guys (Amare and Nash), two SA guys (Duncan and Parker) and two DEN guys (Billups and Carmelo) over Roy when POR currently has the 2nd best record in the West. Roy will be there.

Have you been watching the allstar games ever???

You do know that the coaches and players voted in 4 Lakers one year and snubbed Gary Payton....

Moreover,

Last year...

Amare & Nash went.

AI and Carmelo Went.

Duncan Went.

Parker didn't go BUT....

This year Billups is probably the best PG after Paul.

This Year Parker's stats are through the roof.

Moreover, KMart is having a better year than Roy and really so is Terry... I didn't even mention Kidd and Tmac who may both get in by fan vote.

[AHF]

Saying Al was a consensus 3rd pick is meaningless.. they were in different drafts. You say Shelden's draft was weaker....I don't think so I guess time will tell but getting Gay, Farmar, Rondo as late as they went hasn't been comparable in the 07 draft yet. IN fact, many of the 07 draftees are still waiting to be developed.

Here is my assessment of the vastly superior 2007 draft:

1 Toronto Andrea Bargnani - PF <<<<<1 Portland Greg Oden - C

2 Chicago

(Traded to Portland) LaMarcus Aldridge - PF <<<<<2 Seattle Kevin Durant - SF

3 Charlotte Adam Morrison - SF <<<<<<<<3 Atlanta Al Horford - PF

4 Portland

(Traded to Chicago) Tyrus Thomas - PF <4 Memphis Mike Conley - PG

5 Atlanta Shelden Williams - PF <<<5 Boston

Traded to Seattle Jeff Green - SF

6 Minnesota

(Traded to Portland) Brandon Roy - SG >>>> 6 Milwaukee Yi Jianlian - PF

7 Boston

(Traded to Portland, then Minnesota) Randy Foye - SG >> 7 Minnesota Corey Brewer - SG

8 Houston

(Traded to Memphis) Rudy Gay - SF >>>>>8 Charlotte

Traded to Golden State Brandan Wright - PF

9 Golden State Patrick O'Bryant - C <<<<9 Chicago

from New York Joakim Noah - PF

10 Seattle Mouhamed Sene - C <<<<<<10 Sacramento Spencer Hawes - C

11 Orlando J.J. Redick - SG <<<<<11 Atlanta

from Indiana Acie Law - PG

12 New Orleans Hilton Armstrong - C <<<<<12 Philadelphia Thaddeus Young - SF

13 Philadelphia

(Traded to Chicago) Thabo Sefolosha - SF = 13 NO/Oklahoma City Julian Wright - SF

14 Utah Ronnie Brewer - SG <14 Los Angeles Al Thornton - SF

15 New Orleans

(via Bucks) Cedric Simmons - PF <<<<<15 Detroit

from Orlando Rodney Stuckey - SG

16 Chicago

(Traded to Philadelphia) Rodney Carney - SF <<<<16 Washington Nick Young - SG

17 Indiana Shawne Williams - SF <<<<17 New Jersey Sean Williams - C

18 Washington Oleksiy Pecherov - PF <18 Golden State Marco Belinelli - SG

19 Sacramento Quincy Douby - SG <<19 Los Angeles Javaris Crittenton - PG

20 New York

(via Nuggets) Renaldo Balkman - SF >>>20 Miami

Traded to Philadelphia Jason Smith - PF

21 Phoenix

(Traded to Boston) Rajon Rondo - PG >>> 21 Philadelphia

from Denver; Traded to Miami Daequan Cook - SG

22 New Jersey

(via Clippers) Marcus Williams - PG <22 Charlotte

from Toronto through Cleveland Jared Dudley - SF

23 New Jersey Josh Boone - C <<23 NY Knicks

from Chicago Wilson Chandler - SF

24 Memphis Kyle Lowry - PG <<<24 Phoenix

from Cleveland through Boston; Traded to Portland Rudy Fernandez - SG

25 Cleveland Shannon Brown - SG = 25 Utah Morris Almond - SG

26 LA Lakers

(via Heat) Jordan Farmar - PG > 26 Houston Aaron Brooks - PG

27 Phoenix

(Traded to Portland) Sergio Rodriguez - PG >>27 Detroit Arron Afflalo - SG

28 Dallas Maurice Ager - SG <28 San Antonio Tiago Splitter - PF

29 New York

(via Spurs) Mardy Collins - PG > 29 Phoenix Alando Tucker - SF

30 Portland

(via Pistons) Joel Freeland - PF = 30 Philadelphia

from Dallas through Denver and Golden State; Traded to Portland Petteri Koponen - PG

[crimedog]

I'll play.

For one, there were MANY 'Squawkers at the time who didn't think that Shelden filled a position of need. The Hawks needed a legit center, and Shelden wasn't that. He definitely was supposed to be a rebounder and bruiser, though.

Two, there was very little to lose by not trading down to get him. To this day I'm still angry at Knight for not trading down for Shelden.

Beyond that, there were a lot of people - people on message boards or TV, that had questions about Shel's ability to play at a pro level.

The Marv thing, I say "hindsight" because a lot of people loved Marv pre-draft. BK made a mistake but his mistake was taking the consensus #2 when he should have drafted for need.

Shelden may have filled a need hypothetically but it was a risk to take him there because of his physical and skill limitations and unlike many risks in the draft, Shelden didn't have the "potential" reward down the road.

[Diesel]

Beyond that, there were a lot of people - people on message boards or TV, that had questions about Shel's ability to play at a pro level.

The Marv thing, I say "hindsight" because a lot of people loved Marv pre-draft. BK made a mistake but his mistake was taking the consensus #2 when he should have drafted for need.

Shelden may have filled a need hypothetically but it was a risk to take him there because of his physical and skill limitations and unlike many risks in the draft, Shelden didn't have the "potential" reward down the road.

I like it when people try to change history.... Let's look at some quotes from 2006...

"2006 NBA Draft Grades

How Did Your Team Do?

By N.K., published Jul 07, 2006

Atlanta Hawks- The selection of Shelden Williams, the forward from Duke, with their first round pick was a good move. Williams, like many Duke players, is wise beyond his years and polished enough to lead a young team. However, Duke alumni have not had great luck in the league and Williams has the misfortune of landing on one of the youngest and most selfish teams in the league. Look for Williams to move out of Atlanta first chance he gets. Forward Solomon Jones from South Florida is a big body off the bench for the Hawks this season and could develop into a solid sixth man.

2006 NBA Draft Grade: B- "

"Atlanta- Shelden Williams, PF, Duke (# 5), Solomon Jones, C, South Florida (# 33)

The Hawks’ pick was known for months before the draft. Atlanta had promised Shelden Williams that he would be their selection before the NBA draft lottery. Williams is an outstanding rebounder and shotblocker who is a warrior inside. Williams has excellent strength as he bench pressed 185 pounds 25 times, second best in the Orlando pre-draft camp. He is a hard worker who has good low post moves and has worked hard to improve his foot work. Williams is a good low post scorer who needs to expand his range and away from the basket game. He does a good job of drawing fouls and has worked hard to improve his touch from the free throw line. The Hawks did not have a player on their roster who averaged more than eight rebounds, so Williams will be a good fix on the boards. The Hawks could have traded down in the draft and still got Williams, but there was talk that Minnesota or Boston might grab the former Duke standout. Solomon Jones is a thin active big man who made the Portsmouth Invitational All-Tournament team. He needs to continue to add strength to his frame, although he did put on eight pounds since Portsmouth. The Florida native is a good shotblocker who runs the floor well. He is a project who could pay off, but needs added bulk before he is ready to bang with stronger players in the NBA. GRADE C+"

"

2006 NBA Draft Report Card (Part One: 1-10)

by: Jonathan Givony - President

#5 Atlanta Hawks

Picks: Shelden Williams (5); Solomon Jones (33)

D

The only thing saving the Hawks from getting an F for this draft was the fact that they actually got two players who fill a definite need.

Had the Hawks gone into draft night and made their pick independently without telegraphing it to the entire world more than a month in advance this might have made some more sense, but there is absolutely no logic in guaranteeing a player at #5 who is going to be on the board every single time even if the draft is redone a thousand times over. The Hawks had a chance to redeem themselves by executing a trade with the Rockets and landing Luther Head and Shelden Williams at #8 rather than reaching badly the way they did, but they were not willing to take the risk due to the fact that they were woefully unprepared (and undoubtedly scared of the wrath Williams’ super-agent Arn Tellem) for what might have happened in the unlikely scenario that Minnesota’s bluff to take Williams would have been called.

Not working out Williams and only beginning to conduct private workouts two weeks before the draft is a move bordering on negligence that cannot be made by a GM like Billy Knight that should be on the hotseat. The Hawks did not do their homework in regards to the #33 pick in this aspect either.

Make no mistake, us moving up Solomon Jones 15 spots to the #33 pick on the day of the draft wasn’t a coincidence either, that was yet another move that was telegraphed to us and in turn every other team in the NBA.

Atlanta is a franchise that hasn’t made the playoffs in god-knows how long, and with the amateur way they’ve been run over the past few years, most likely won’t make it there anytime soon if their front office has anything to say about it.

"

"Atlanta HawksPicks: Shelden Williams (5); Solomon Jones (33)

They needed a defensive-minded forward in case Al Harrington leaves via free agency, and Williams (a.k.a. "the Landlord") is an Antonio Davis clone who did a good job collecting the rent in the paint at Duke. But could they have traded down and still got their man? And will they regret (again) passing on a point guard, especially if Randy Foye or Marcus Williams blows up a la Chris Paul a year ago?

B- "

[AHF]

Just for fun, I figured I would restack the first rounds of the 2006 and 2007 drafts with the players who are truly relevant based on how I think GMs would take these guys today. The 2007 draft is definitely much deeper and only the very top of the draft (with more productive and closer to finished products Roy and Gay as compared to Oden and Durant) is arguably better for 2007, IMO. The order is certainly arguable at a lot of spots but the overall point is that the 2007 draft is just much better:

Kevin Durant -- Brandon Roy

Greg Oden -- Rudy Gay

Al Horford -- Lamarcus Aldridge

Thaddeus Young -- Rajon Rondo

Al Thorton -- Andrea Bargnani

Rudy Fernandez -- Randy Foye

Rodney Stuckey -- Ronnie Brewer

Jeff Green -- Tyrus Thomas

Yi Jianlin -- Sergio Rodriguez

Spencer Hawes -- Jordan Farmer

Brandon Wright -- Kyle Lowry

Mike Conley -- Thabo Sefolosha

Joakim Noah -- Renaldo Balkman

Julian Wright -- Marcus Williams

Nick Young -- Josh Boone

Daequan Cook -- Shelden Williams

Acie Law

Sean Williams

Wilson Chandler

Jared Dudley

Javaris Crittenon

Aaron Brooks

[Johnnybravo4]

Ex, I'm pretty sure he was kidding...

7

Horford was the consensus #3 just like Marvin Williams was the consensus #2. In fact if we had the #1 pick we would have gotten Bogut for sure, which still would have been a worse pic than Chris Paul. You just never know. Shelden Williams was a much better college player than Al Horford, Chris Paul or Andrew Bogut but no where near the NBA player...It is just a crapshoot sometimes.

[AHF]

Horford was the consensus #3 just like Marvin Williams was the consensus #2. In fact if we had the #1 pick we would have gotten Bogut for sure, which still would have been a worse pic than Chris Paul. You just never know. Shelden Williams was a much better college player than Al Horford, Chris Paul or Andrew Bogut but no where near the NBA player...It is just a crapshoot sometimes.

Shelden Williams as a college senior was a first team all-american and candidate for POY - the same awards as Paul as a sophmore. He also won DPOY awards (none by his sophmore year) and was on ACC All-defense teams (as was Paul).

Bogut had a superior career to Williams. He was first team All-American both his sophmore and junior years (Williams was a senior) and was the National Player of the Year his junior season. This was also Shelden's junior season so he was much better than Williams as a junior given that he was NPOY and Williams wasn't even first team All-American.

I agree that statistically and in terms of awards other than championships, Shelden had the better college career than Horford. Given that Horford played within a team role on back-to-back national championships and that Shelden never saw a final four, Horford at least has a credible argument.

[Packfill]

Shelden Williams as a college senior was a first team all-american and candidate for POY - the same awards as Paul as a sophmore. He also won DPOY awards (none by his sophmore year) and was on ACC All-defense teams (as was Paul).

Bogut had a superior career to Williams. He was first team All-American both his sophmore and junior years (Williams was a senior) and was the National Player of the Year his junior season. This was also Shelden's junior season so he was much better than Williams as a junior given that he was NPOY and Williams wasn't even first team All-American.

I agree that statistically and in terms of awards other than championships, Shelden had the better college career than Horford. Given that Horford played within a team role on back-to-back national championships and that Shelden never saw a final four, Horford at least has a credible argument.

I don't think anyone, including the people who hated the Shelden pick, thought he would be as bad as he has been. I didn't like the pick but at least expected him to be a Udonis Haslem type player (obviously that does not justify using a high lottery pick on him).

There is plenty of room for undersized power forwards in the league (at least in back-up roles) that it really makes you wonder why Shelden can't at least be as effective as guys like Milsap, Craig Smith, Leon Powe, Haslem, etc.