Marvin williams bandwagon

[tonegully]

the number 2 draft pick baby.

hop on.

As someone said earlier. He is becoming an all around small forward.

[Popeye]

i am Member 2

[smithrules]

the number 2 draft pick baby.

hop on.

As someone said earlier. He is becoming an all around small forward.

Im on! i have been saying for a while about our young guys, they are just that! Marvin would really should be a rookie this year if he stayed in college. I think as much of anything he just has to demand the ball. Woody should be coaching him up more. He has a pure stroke get him the ball when JJ is having one of his brick house building nights.

[exodus]

He is going to have to become more consistent for me to jump on his bandwagon. He has a few horrible games when Smith first came back. This month he is averaging 13 pts shooting 45%, 25% from 3. That is nothing special. His 3 pt shooting has cooled off.

There is still plenty of room for improvement from him on the boards too.

[DrReality]

For the Hawks to do well he needs to do well. Being a Hawks fan and a Marvin fan are synonymous.

[bronnt]

He is going to have to become more consistent for me to jump on his bandwagon. He has a few horrible games when Smith first came back. This month he is averaging 13 pts shooting 45%, 25% from 3. That is nothing special. His 3 pt shooting has cooled off.

There is still plenty of room for improvement from him on the boards too.

He'll never justify his draft position, not when the guys taken immediately after him are all-star, Team USA calibre. We can still appreciate that he's becoming a good basketball player.

If you want to knock Marvin for consistency, you have to hold JJ to the same standards for consistency, and he's really had an up and down season (following the same kind of year last season). Sure, his down is still pretty darn good, but it's nowhere near as good as when he's completely on.

Post-Edit: and part of the reason that JJ has bad nights and still puts up a lot of points is because we run the whole offense through him. He takes 15 shots or more in pretty much every game. Marvin, in contrast, has only taken 15 or more shots ONCE this season.

Edited December 20, 2008 by bronnt

[exodus]

He'll never justify his draft position, not when the guys taken immediately after him are all-star, Team USA calibre. We can still appreciate that he's becoming a good basketball player.

If you want to knock Marvin for consistency, you have to hold JJ to the same standards for consistency, and he's really had an up and down season (following the same kind of year last season). Sure, his down is still pretty darn good, but it's nowhere near as good as when he's completely on.

JJ is averaging 23 ppg shooting 50% this month. Is that not good enough for you?

[bronnt]

JJ is averaging 23 ppg shooting 50% this month. Is that not good enough for you?

Wasn't trying to call out JJ, exactly, just pointing out that even our best player has had his ups and downs.

The last 5 games, for example, he's shot 40%, 37.5%, 61.1%, 41.2%, and 40% from the floor. One good, and three not so good.

The thing about Marvin is that if you're watching the game and not the box score, he can sneak up on you with his good nights. Last night, for example, he was our best offensive player (until Flip got hot in the fourth) and I didn't even realize until midway through the fourth when the broadcast put up his stat line.

I wish we could go to him more on nights when he's got it working, but I suppose I can't blame Woodson for no noticing when those times are-he does it in a pretty low key way.

[Cwell]

I was hard on him the 2nd half of last season but don't have a bad thing to say a about him this year. He's impressed me alot,could be better but he improved all the things I hated about him last year.

[exodus]

Wasn't trying to call out JJ, exactly, just pointing out that even our best player has had his ups and downs.

The last 5 games, for example, he's shot 40%, 37.5%, 61.1%, 41.2%, and 40% from the floor. One good, and three not so good.

The thing about Marvin is that if you're watching the game and not the box score, he can sneak up on you with his good nights. Last night, for example, he was our best offensive player (until Flip got hot in the fourth) and I didn't even realize until midway through the fourth when the broadcast put up his stat line.

I wish we could go to him more on nights when he's got it working, but I suppose I can't blame Woodson for no noticing when those times are-he does it in a pretty low key way.

Marvin was 1-10 against Miami, 1-6 against the Spurs and 3-10 against Dallas. Marvin isn't the one getting constantly doubled. He isn't the one forced to constantly take desperation shots at the end of the clock.

Last night Marvin realized that the thing to do against GS was go to the rim, with or without the ball. It is nice that he had a good game, but the Hawks really need other guys to step up on offense more often to take some of the defensive pressure off JJ. Of course this would be easier with offensive sets that aren't focused on dribbling and standing around.

[Popeye]

Marvin had 4 games where he shot less than 35%. Bibby has 8 of them. Horford has 5. Joe has 5. Smoove has 5 too, but he hasn't played in half of them.

Bottom line is that Marvin is our most consistent player.

[exodus]

Marvin had 4 games where he shot less than 35%. Bibby has 8 of them. Horford has 5. Joe has 5. Smoove has 5 too, but he hasn't played in half of them.

Bottom line is that Marvin is our most consistent player.

JJ and Bibby take more shots than Marvin so of course they will be more prone to poor shooting % nights. The more shots you take the harder it is to maintain a high percentage.

Horford has never been a scorer and Smith's primary value has always been on the defensive end. Smith just needs to stop being a liability on offense. His situation is completely different from Marvin's.

If Marvin scores 11 ppg every game he is being consistent but that doesn't mean he is doing well. We need more points from him.

[DChawk]

JJ and Bibby take more shots than Marvin so of course they will be more prone to poor shooting % nights. The more shots you take the harder it is to maintain a high percentage.

Horford has never been a scorer and Smith's primary value has always been on the defensive end. Smith just needs to stop being a liability on offense. His situation is completely different from Marvin's.

If Marvin scores 11 ppg every game he is being consistent but that doesn't mean he is doing well. We need more points from him.

Well Marvin has also become our best man on ball defender. In fact I'd say he's our best overall defender. He works really hard on that end of the floor and we're a damn good defensive team when he's out there. His offense still has a little ways to go, especialy driving the ball and in the paint (although he's become a much better finisher around the basket).

He's definitely got to to the point where I can say I hope he's a Hawk for a long time. Don't think I would have said that a year ago.

Edited December 21, 2008 by DChawk

[bronnt]

Well Marvin has also become our best man on ball defender. In fact I'd say he's our best overall defender. He works really hard on that end of the floor and we're a damn good defensive team when he's out there. His offense still has a little ways to go, especialy driving the ball and in the paint (although he's become a much better finisher around the basket).

He's definitely got to to the point where I can say I hope he's a Hawk for a long time. Don't think I would have said that a year ago.

You could say that Marvin is our best defender, and you'd be wrong. Very wrong. He's fairly solid overall defensively and uses his length to bother guys but doesn't create a lot of turnovers. In fact, we give up more points with Marvin on the floor than without.

Josh Smith is a terror. Our defensive efficiency with him on the floor is 98.3, compared to 111.3 when he's not on the floor. The only other guys in the league who are comparable (this season, at least) are Ron Artest and Andrei Kilienko (as odd as that seems to me).

[bronnt]

Marvin was 1-10 against Miami, 1-6 against the Spurs and 3-10 against Dallas. Marvin isn't the one getting constantly doubled. He isn't the one forced to constantly take desperation shots at the end of the clock.

Last night Marvin realized that the thing to do against GS was go to the rim, with or without the ball. It is nice that he had a good game, but the Hawks really need other guys to step up on offense more often to take some of the defensive pressure off JJ. Of course this would be easier with offensive sets that aren't focused on dribbling and standing around.

I guess Marvin is just "cherry-picking."

If you're trying to convince me JJ is better than Marvin...you win. Game over. The issue was never in doubt. That's not at all my point. Marvin isn't the second coming.

My point is that Marvin isn't a bad player because we can point to his worst performances. You pulled out practically his worst three games of the season-I could point out JJs worst showings and it wouldn't be pretty either. Sometimes Marvin gets neutralized by factors beyond his control-ie, our own team's poor offensive design.

It's one thing to have a clear explanation of a player's shortcomings, but you simply point out that he isn't "consistent" without defining that, and that is why you're not happy with him. Frankly, shooting 45% on the month isn't that bad for someone who's primarily used as a jumpshooter. And on the month, he's averaging 6 rebounds per game, which isn't bad for a small forward. Ron Artest is averaging 5.9 on the season, for example.

What exactly does Marvin need to do to prove that he's "consistent" ?

Edited December 21, 2008 by bronnt

[tonegully]

I dont care what anyone says. We need to run some of the offense through Marvin. Marv is a threat at the 3pt line and he can attack the basket. He is becoming a young poor man's Scottie Pippen, and Marv is what 22?

[exodus]

I guess Marvin is just "cherry-picking."

If you're trying to convince me JJ is better than Marvin...you win. Game over. The issue was never in doubt. That's not at all my point. Marvin isn't the second coming.

My point is that Marvin isn't a bad player because we can point to his worst performances. You pulled out practically his worst three games of the season-I could point out JJs worst showings and it wouldn't be pretty either. Sometimes Marvin gets neutralized by factors beyond his control-ie, our own team's poor offensive design.

It's one thing to have a clear explanation of a player's shortcomings, but you simply point out that he isn't "consistent" without defining that, and that is why you're not happy with him. Frankly, shooting 45% on the month isn't that bad for someone who's primarily used as a jumpshooter. And on the month, he's averaging 6 rebounds per game, which isn't bad for a small forward. Ron Artest is averaging 5.9 on the season, for example.

What exactly does Marvin need to do to prove that he's "consistent" ?

I think a history lesson is in order since you are new here. I have probably defended Marvin more than any 3 posters on this site against the people who hate him because of where he was picked.

But last season he got to a hot start and then faded badly. He looks to be doing the same thing now. I think he should be more than just an average starting 3 and right now i can't say that he is. I want him to be consistently good instead of consistently mediocre.

[Peoriabird]

I guess Marvin is just "cherry-picking."

If you're trying to convince me JJ is better than Marvin...you win. Game over. The issue was never in doubt. That's not at all my point. Marvin isn't the second coming.

My point is that Marvin isn't a bad player because we can point to his worst performances. You pulled out practically his worst three games of the season-I could point out JJs worst showings and it wouldn't be pretty either. Sometimes Marvin gets neutralized by factors beyond his control-ie, our own team's poor offensive design.

It's one thing to have a clear explanation of a player's shortcomings, but you simply point out that he isn't "consistent" without defining that, and that is why you're not happy with him. Frankly, shooting 45% on the month isn't that bad for someone who's primarily used as a jumpshooter. And on the month, he's averaging 6 rebounds per game, which isn't bad for a small forward. Ron Artest is averaging 5.9 on the season, for example.

What exactly does Marvin need to do to prove that he's "consistent" ?

I'm glad that you are fighting this battle because I am tired of doing it. Everybody has seen our offense but yet will blame the players for its failure to set anyone else up on a consistent except Joe and Bibby. I notice the statement that Joe takes shot with the shot clock running down and others don't. What game has that person been watching? Because the one's that i have watched, JOE IS THE ONLY PLAYER THAT TOUCHES THE BALL CONSISTENTLY EARLY IN THE HALF COURT OFFENSE. Everybody else gets the pass after Joe dribble for 18 seconds. The other curious argument is that Joe take tougher shots than everyone else. That's funny because the offense is designed to get Joe an open shot 80% of the time with multiple screens. Something no one else gets on a consistent basis. Other players are asked to either post up or take their man off the dribble. And again that pass out of the double team is usually with a man closing and the shot clock running down. BUT ANYWAY, I let people believe what they want to believe.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Peoriabird

[mrhonline]

You could say that Marvin is our best defender, and you'd be wrong.

He didn't say that. He said Marvin is the Hawks' best "man on ball" defender, which he is. Smith is the Hawks' best help defender. (He's probably the best help defender in the league).

[bronnt]

That's true Peoria. It's almost like our offense is DESIGNED to run 12 seconds off the shot clock before they begin their sets.

I've spent the past two years thinking that Joe wouldn't have to take so many hard shots if we got the ball out of his hands more often and had less standing around on the offensive end. Push the ball inside, drive, and let JJ move without the ball and catch the ball for a shot in rhythm.

Just because we have one single player who can create shot opportunities for himself doesn't mean that we should force him to break his defender down on the dribble on every single possession.

Some will say that perhaps our poor offensive execution is equally the fault of the players and the coach. I really can't agree since we've had a lot of different players come through since 2006, and pretty much all of them stand around watching JJ when we're running our half court offense. Either we have horrible luck finding players who can run offensive sets, or our offense is designed to have 3 guys standing around while one guy sets a screen for the ball-handler.