Marvin williams bandwagon

[Peoriabird]

or our offense is designed to have 3 guys standing around while one guy sets a screen for the ball-handler.

*Ding* *Ding*

[bronnt]

He didn't say that. He said Marvin is the Hawks' best "man on ball" defender, which he is. Smith is the Hawks' best help defender. (He's probably the best help defender in the league).

Immediately after saying that he said

In fact I'd say he's our best overall defender

I also really have to point out that while Smith used to be much better on the help side than guarding man-up, he's really evolved as a defensive player and is now extremely good when guarding his man with the ball, whether it's on the post or the perimeter.

I sometimes wonder if people are just remembering Smith as being a poor man-on-man defender and aren't seeing just how good he is at it now. I mean, I guess you can watch him and not notice because he has a reputation for help-side defense and that always shows up because it's flashy, and you fill in what you don't remember seeing with what you already know about a player.

He's missed a lot of time, but had he played all year, I'd endorse him for DPOY right now without any qualms.

[AHF]

Put me in the camp that thinks that Marvin needs to get more consistent to reach the next level and that in order to get that consistency he needs to be more assertive. More assertive on the glass and more assertive in his scoring. Marvin was the player of the game last night but still only took 13 shots.

A big part of the problem is clearly Woodson's offensive "system" - you won't get any argument from me on that. However, I do think that Marvin goes through periods where he is ctoo ontent to wait for things to happen. Josh Smith tries to make things happen to a fault. Marvin plays smart for the most part but doesn't step outside his comfort zone.

A middle ground would be better for both Marvin and Josh.

[Peoriabird]

Josh Smith tries to make things happen to a fault.

Which is why he shoots a poor percentage and turns the ball over excessively. Marvin is not the point guard so he only sees that ball when it is passed to him and the offense is not designed to get Marvin the ball consistently. Heck Acie is a point guard and he doesn't see the ball that much or is allowed to run the offense. If you think that Marvin could suddenly turn into flip Murray without the approval of the coaches or the veterans on this club, you are just nuts!

[AHF]

Which is why he shoots a poor percentage and turns the ball over excessively. Marvin is not the point guard so he only sees that ball when it is passed to him and the offense is not designed to get Marvin the ball consistently. Heck Acie is a point guard and he doesn't see the ball that much or is allowed to run the offense. If you think that Marvin could suddenly turn into flip Murray without the approval of the coaches or the veterans on this club, you are just nuts!

I don't want Marvin to be Flip Murray. I do want him to demand the ball more. A player like Danny Granger or Caron Butler would not accept this limited a role on offense after this many years. I firmly believe Marvin can assert himself more in the games, practices, etc. by attacking the boards, asking for the ball when he is hot, etc. We saw him do it the other night at Boston in the first half. He was assertive, he got the ball, and he did damage in the first half. I want to see more of that from him. (Note that he actually wasn't all that hot int he first half of the Boston game - he just was assertive).

[Peoriabird]

I do want him to demand the ball more. A player like Danny Granger or Caron Butler would not accept this limited a role on offense after this many years.

Again, this is a reason you should like him more because he is sacrificing his game for the team. And the above players you mention have something is common, they are on teams that lose a lot of games. By the way, Granger is out tonight and Indiana looks like they will beat Philly on the road.

[bronnt]

I think a history lesson is in order since you are new here. I have probably defended Marvin more than any 3 posters on this site against the people who hate him because of where he was picked.

But last season he got to a hot start and then faded badly. He looks to be doing the same thing now. I think he should be more than just an average starting 3 and right now i can't say that he is. I want him to be consistently good instead of consistently mediocre.

Thanks for the history lesson. I don't see how it's relevant. I never brought into account the history of dislike people bear for Marvin, nor the decision to draft him over a pair of Team USA point guards.

What I am happy about is that there was a time in which I couldn't even justify Marvin being a starter for us, and this year he's improved to the point that he's a valuable player and would start for many teams. Is he a star? Nope. Will be ever be an all-star? Eh...probably not. But he's good.

It's tough to make a simple statistical case that Marvin is that much better than last year. Our team's Pace has dropped-we're near the bottom of the league in that regard, which means fewer possessions. But his rebound rating is up, turnovers are down, eFG% is WAY up ( 5.3% is a pretty significant jump) and he's added a dimension to his offensive game that makes him a serious offensive threat.

Your assessment that he's fading after a hot start seems to ignore the past 4 home games, in which he's been extremely effective. I think it's significant that his biggest struggles came on the road against pretty good teams. It's different from last year, where he lost all consistency against pretty much any team, and failed to contribute anything in games where his shot wasn't falling.

I hate to keep harping back on Joe Johnson, but you want to talk about a man who got off to hot starts and then struggled....well he definitely has done that in the past two years. You look at his first 12 games this year and he was pretty awesome...he's fallen off a bit since then. Remember how the same kind of thing happened last year? He struggled until we added Bibby to the mix.

[AHF]

Again, this is a reason you should like him more because he is sacrificing his game for the team. And the above players you mention have something is common, they are on teams that lose a lot of games. By the way, Granger is out tonight and Indiana looks like they will beat Philly on the road.

I don't mind the notion of him sacrificing his game for the team. However, the team would be better off if Marvin were more aggressive on offense. Someone is going to be taking those shots and Marvin should be the 2nd or 3rd best option on the floor at any time for the Hawks. There are too many games when he takes the offensive role of a 5th or 6th option.

(As an aside, are you seriously suggesting that Danny Granger's willingness to assert himself as more than a limited role player is a bad thing for the Pacers?)

[Peoriabird]

(As an aside, are you seriously suggesting that Danny Granger's willingness to assert himself as more than a limited role player is a bad thing for the Pacers?)

They have only won 8 or 9 games this year

[DJlaysitup]

... Josh Smith tries to make things happen to a fault. Marvin plays smart for the most part but doesn't step outside his comfort zone.

A middle ground would be better for both Marvin and Josh.

That pretty much says it all AHF....add to it that our coach is holding us back offensively, but as far as a team of strong "D"... talented chuckers - we are doing pretty good.

[AHF]

They have only won 8 or 9 games this year

Are you deliberately not answering the question?

[Cwell]

I guess Marvin is just "cherry-picking."

If you're trying to convince me JJ is better than Marvin...you win. Game over. The issue was never in doubt. That's not at all my point. Marvin isn't the second coming.

My point is that Marvin isn't a bad player because we can point to his worst performances. You pulled out practically his worst three games of the season-I could point out JJs worst showings and it wouldn't be pretty either. Sometimes Marvin gets neutralized by factors beyond his control-ie, our own team's poor offensive design.

It's one thing to have a clear explanation of a player's shortcomings, but you simply point out that he isn't "consistent" without defining that, and that is why you're not happy with him. Frankly, shooting 45% on the month isn't that bad for someone who's primarily used as a jumpshooter. And on the month, he's averaging 6 rebounds per game, which isn't bad for a small forward. Ron Artest is averaging 5.9 on the season, for example.

What exactly does Marvin need to do to prove that he's "consistent" ?

exactly,none of us know how good this team and each player individually can be because of the bad system and bad coaching.

[Cwell]

I don't want Marvin to be Flip Murray. I do want him to demand the ball more. A player like Danny Granger or Caron Butler would not accept this limited a role on offense after this many years. I firmly believe Marvin can assert himself more in the games, practices, etc. by attacking the boards, asking for the ball when he is hot, etc. We saw him do it the other night at Boston in the first half. He was assertive, he got the ball, and he did damage in the first half. I want to see more of that from him. (Note that he actually wasn't all that hot int he first half of the Boston game - he just was assertive).

and how good was Caron before he went to the Wizards?

[Peoriabird]

Are you deliberately not answering the question?

Pretty easy to be a chucker on a bad team! Plus AI proved that chucker are sometime directly responsible for their team's poor record.

[DJlaysitup]

exactly,none of us know how good this team and each player individually can be because of the bad system and bad coaching.

Agreed Cwell...personally I don't think Woody is as dumb as a rock - or even a post - but maybe a bag of hammers

I would love to be an insider and know if Woody actually game-plans for specific matchups and plans accordingly. From the outside it doesn't look that way - I think he just preaches defense and hopes. The guys probably get get tired of the same old sh!t after awhile.

Interestingly - that's why I think JChillz did so well here moving without the ball - he was smart - he knew the lame offensive strategy and likely knew where the shots would be coming from and from who...therefore he knew where the misses would likely go.

Edited December 21, 2008 by DJlaysitup

[AHF]

Which player is helping their team the most?

Player 1

13.7 ppg 16.2 PER 57.6 TS% 6.1 rpg 1.6 apg 1.1 topg .8 spg .6 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +0.9 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: -3.9 points

Player 2

20.2 ppg 20.6 PER 57.0 TS% 6.6 rpg 4.3 apg 3.1 topg 1.6 spg .3 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +2.1 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: +2.4 points

Player 3

24.4 ppg 20.1 PER 57.1 TS% 5.3 rpg 3.2 apg 3.1 topg 1.0 spg 1.4 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +7.9 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: +7.6 points

I think it is obvious which players are having the biggest positive impact on their teams.

I also think lineups of:

Bibby

JJ

Caron Butler/Danny Granger

Smith

Horford

would do better than:

TJ Ford

Marquis Daniels

Marvin Williams

Troy Murphy

Rasho Nesterovich

or

Dee Brown

Deshawn Stevenson

Marvin Williams

Antawn Jamison

JaVale McGee

[DJlaysitup]

OT -

If the league would have adopted my recommendation of making all shots from half-court or further worth 5 points - Salim would still be in the league :line dance: :line dance:

[Cwell]

OT -

If the league would have adopted my recommendation of making all shots from half-court or further worth 5 points - Salim would still be in the league :line dance: :line dance:

lol then u see 100 half court heaves all game. maybe Joe would lead in that category because he never misses from way deep lol

[Peoriabird]

Which player is helping their team the most?

Player 1

13.7 ppg 16.2 PER 57.6 TS% 6.1 rpg 1.6 apg 1.1 topg .8 spg .6 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +0.9 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: -3.9 points

Player 2

20.2 ppg 20.6 PER 57.0 TS% 6.6 rpg 4.3 apg 3.1 topg 1.6 spg .3 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +2.1 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: +2.4 points

Player 3

24.4 ppg 20.1 PER 57.1 TS% 5.3 rpg 3.2 apg 3.1 topg 1.0 spg 1.4 bpg -- net 48-Minute production at SF +7.9 ppg -- net points per 100 while on the floor versus off: +7.6 points

I think it is obvious which players are having the biggest positive impact on their teams.

That's what Denver thought last year and what Detroit thought this year with AI. Fans of this team still amaze me with their simplistic way of thinking. Lets see, all you have to do is add player's current averages together and presto, you can predict how many points a team would score per night with them all on the same team. Please tell me that you do understand that each team has their own systems that uses players differently. Please also tell me that you have watched a Hawk game in which on offense is run through Joe and Bibby, not anyone else. Please tell you also know that both are shoot first players who only give up the opportunity to shoot when forced to do so. Please tell me that you understand the above information is important.

[tonegully]

I blame Woody. The way the offense is set up. Through Joe. He doesn't even run the offense through Marvin when Joe is on the bench. The offense runs through FLOP. Its a shame.