Marvin williams bandwagon

[DChawk]

Immediately after saying that he said

I also really have to point out that while Smith used to be much better on the help side than guarding man-up, he's really evolved as a defensive player and is now extremely good when guarding his man with the ball, whether it's on the post or the perimeter.

I sometimes wonder if people are just remembering Smith as being a poor man-on-man defender and aren't seeing just how good he is at it now. I mean, I guess you can watch him and not notice because he has a reputation for help-side defense and that always shows up because it's flashy, and you fill in what you don't remember seeing with what you already know about a player.

He's missed a lot of time, but had he played all year, I'd endorse him for DPOY right now without any qualms.

You have a decent argument if your saying Josh is a better defensive player than Marvin, but there's no way he a better man defender. I appreciate the way Josh's shot blocking bothers the other team - even when he's nowhere near them they are obviously conscious of him when he in the game. Teams just don't attack the basket with him in the game like they would when he's not. I agree in that sense. But Marvin is a much more fundamentally sound defender. He plays smart, tough D in a way that's obviously coached unlike Josh who relies on his athleticism. Whatever... I just glad Marvin's making it debatable.

And yeah, I'm calling Josh out on his on ball defense for what I've seen lately. He always gives up position too easily, lets his man drive to the basket (he's usually measuring them for a block the whole time, but the savvy players make him pay for it) and he rarely puts a hand in his man's face when they're shooting jumpers. His natural skills on D are undeniable... it's just frustrating as a fan to see him so unfocused sometimes when you know how dominant he could be.

[Diesel]

Marvin Williams bandwagon seen rolling very slowly on Impact Drive.

Today in downtown Atlanta on Impact drive, there was a bandwagon with about 9 fans onboard and it was rolling about 5 mph. The driver of the bandwagon was Atlanta Hawk Marvin Williams. The bandwagon was a strange site because it was rolling very slowly and holding up traffic on the downtown street. Mr. Williams said that he was on his way to Philips arena, however, his bandwagon could not make it up the hill to Marietta street. Further investigation showed that the Marvin Williams bandwagon was stuck in neutral and could not gather the momentum to make it up the hill on Impact Drive.

Fortunately for those 9 fans, the Atlanta district Chris Paul Bandwagon was able to zip by and offer them a ride to the Arena. Mr. Williams immediately jumped onto the Chris Paul Bandwagon, but there were several of the fans who refused to get off of the Marvin Williams bandwagon. A quick view of the Chris Paul Bandwagon revealed that former GM Billy Knight and current star Joe Johnson were among the members riding on the Chris Paul bandwagon.

[Diesel]

I dont care what anyone says. We need to run some of the offense through Marvin. Marv is a threat at the 3pt line and he can attack the basket. He is becoming a young poor man's Scottie Pippen, and Marv is what 22?

I think what you need to understand about Marvin is that right now, he is dependent on Joe Johnson. With the freedom that Joe Johnson provides, Marvin would not do much. Night after night you see teams double and triple Johnson... that leaves the floor wide open for Marvin to do something.

[Cwell]

I think what you need to understand about Marvin is that right now, he is dependent on Joe Johnson. With the freedom that Joe Johnson provides, Marvin would not do much. Night after night you see teams double and triple Johnson... that leaves the floor wide open for Marvin to do something.

lol and he STILL don't pass him the ball.

[AHF]

That's what Denver thought last year and what Detroit thought this year with AI.

STRAWMAN - Who on this thread said this?

Fans of this team still amaze me with their simplistic way of thinking. Lets see, all you have to do is add player's current averages together and presto, you can predict how many points a team would score per night with them all on the same team.

STRAWMAN - Who on this thread said this?

Why don't you address the points that are actually raised? NO ONE throught Detroit would be better with AI. Everyone recognized that was a trade that would hurt Detroit in the shortterm but free up salary cap room to let them go after someone like Carlos Boozer in the future.

Billups has never been anywhere near as efficient as Billups. Hence, adding either of them to a team with other scorers suggests that Billups is the guy who can best play within the offense - using your eyes tells you the same thing even more forcefully. Iverson racks up more in the way of raw numbers but it is clear that Billups is the better guy to incorporate into a team with talent because he is MUCH more efficient and a superior defender:

Billups

61.9 TS% 23.6 PER

Iverson

56.7 TS% 20.9 PER

In contrast, Granger, Marvin and Butler are equally efficient shooting the ball (despite Granger and Butler forcing many more shots because their teams don't have the same talent).

Just answer me whether these statements are true or false without dodging the questions this time:

(A) The Hawks would be hurt if Marvin Williams played a bigger role in the offense.

(B) The Hawks would be helped if Marvin Williams played a bigger role in the offense.

( C) Marvin is always as assertive as he was in the first half of the most recent game against Boston.

(D) (Assuming statement [C] is false) The Hawks as a team would be hurt if Marvin were more assertive on offense in the same way he was in the first half of the Boston game.

If you feel like it you can also answer these:

(E) Marvin Williams is better than Danny Granger.

(F) Marvin Williams is better offensively than Caron Butler.

Bottomline - I agree that our offense is a real problem. No question about it. 60% of the shots taken by the Hawks are not by Bibby or Johnson. We don't have an offensive system - thus one that is not disrupted when Horford or Marvin steps up. The team would be better off if more of them were taken by Marvin.

There are times when Marvin asserts himself. He demands to be a bigger part of the offense and the team is better as a result. This happened in the first half of the Boston game. He should do that more often.

Edited December 21, 2008 by AHF

[exodus]

It's tough to make a simple statistical case that Marvin is that much better than last year. Our team's Pace has dropped-we're near the bottom of the league in that regard, which means fewer possessions. But his rebound rating is up, turnovers are down, eFG% is WAY up ( 5.3% is a pretty significant jump) and he's added a dimension to his offensive game that makes him a serious offensive threat.

Your assessment that he's fading after a hot start seems to ignore the past 4 home games, in which he's been extremely effective.

He also had 2 games just two weeks ago where he was a combined 2-16.

Marvin's EFG% was higher than this at this time last year. He shot 50% from the field during the first two months of the season. He also got to the ft line more.

I hate to keep harping back on Joe Johnson, but you want to talk about a man who got off to hot starts and then struggled....well he definitely has done that in the past two years

No he hasn't. He struggled badly at the beginning of last season coming off his season ending injury the year before. He shot under 42% from the field in each of the first 4 months of the season.

Then he won NBA Player of the Month in March and shot 51% from the field in April.

Saying he got off to a hot start and then struggled makes me wonder what you were watching.

You look at his first 12 games this year and he was pretty awesome...he's fallen off a bit since then.

Do you remember, or were you ever aware, that JJ sprained his toe this year and played through it? According to Horford JJ was barely able to run before the Cavs game where he went 1-8 for 4 pts.

[bronnt]

He also had 2 games just two weeks ago where he was a combined 2-16.

Marvin's EFG% was higher than this at this time last year.

No, it wasn't. Through 26 games last year, his eFG% was 50.5%. His eFG% through 26 games this year is 51.6%.

Also, again, 2 games = SMALL SAMPLE SIZE. 2 road games against winning teams.

No he hasn't. He struggled badly at the beginning of last season coming off his season ending injury the year before. He shot under 42% from the field in each of the first 4 months of the season.

Then he won NBA Player of the Month in March and shot 51% from the field in April.

Saying he got off to a hot start and then struggled makes me wonder what you were watching.

I was simply watching last year when he started off as a solid all-star candidate, and his shooting %, scoring, and assists reduced every month until we traded for Mike Bibby.

Do you remember, or were you ever aware, that JJ sprained his toe this year and played through it? According to Horford JJ was barely able to run before the Cavs game where he went 1-8 for 4 pts.

I'm not questioning Joe's ability or his toughness. He's simply a very handy example of a good player who isn't good in every single game he plays in.

I still kind of wonder what you'd require of Marvin in order for him to earn the "consistent" label.

[exodus]

No, it wasn't. Through 26 games last year, his eFG% was 50.5%. His eFG% through 26 games this year is 51.6%.

Also, again, 2 games = SMALL SAMPLE SIZE. 2 road games against winning teams.

Marvin is shooting 25% from 3 this month, roughly half of what he did last month. His EFG% on his jumpers has been fading steadily, just like it did last year although last year he waited until December was over.

This is Marvin's 5th year. He shouldn't be so bothered by road games that he goes 2-16 on consecutive games.

I was simply watching last year when he started off as a solid all-star candidate, and his shooting %, scoring, and assists reduced every month until we traded for Mike Bibby.

JJ shot 41.4% from the field, 32% from 3 last november. That hardly qualifies as a hot start. The only time he started worse was his first season here.

His 3 pt shooting started coming back before Bibby even got here. he shot 39% from 3 in january.

The All-Star break probably helped him as much as Bibby. JJ averaged 25 ppg shooting 47% during his second season here. It isn't like he suddenly became a different player once we got Bibby.

I'm not questioning Joe's ability or his toughness. He's simply a very handy example of a good player who isn't good in every single game he plays in.

Nobody is good every single game he plays in. Before they beat the Lakers Wade shot 34% from the field over 3 games.

I still kind of wonder what you'd require of Marvin in order for him to earn the "consistent" label.

Being consistently good instead of consistently mediocre would be a good start. This is his 5th season and he shouldn't be getting 25% of his shots inside blocked.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL9.HTM

Shooting 47% from 3 one month and then falling to 25% the very next month is not what i would call consistent. This is pretty similar to what happened to his jumper last season. he started off hot and then faded badly.

[bronnt]

Marvin is shooting 25% from 3 this month, roughly half of what he did last month. His EFG% on his jumpers has been fading steadily, just like it did last year although last year he waited until December was over.

This three point shooting slump is a team-wide phenomenon.

Mike Bibby: 47.1% in November, 36.7% in December.

Mo Evans: 50.9% in November, 14,3% in December.

Joe Johnson: 38.5% in November, 32.9% in December.

Perhaps there are other factors than Marvin's "fading" which are at the root of this cause? Can anyone here really argue that the half court offense is not stagnant and resulting in a lot of shots jacked up late in the shot clock? The team is settling for jumpers instead of creating open looks. We got away with this for while because teams knew we were a poor jumpshooting team last year, and were willing to let guys hang around the perimeter.

JJ shot 41.4% from the field, 32% from 3 last november. That hardly qualifies as a hot start. The only time he started worse was his first season here.

His 3 pt shooting started coming back before Bibby even got here. he shot 39% from 3 in january.

And his overall shooting % was at its lowest point while his scoring average dipped under 20.

Nobody is good every single game he plays in. Before they beat the Lakers Wade shot 34% from the field over 3 games.

Exactly.

[tonegully]

I think what you need to understand about Marvin is that right now, he is dependent on Joe Johnson. With the freedom that Joe Johnson provides, Marvin would not do much. Night after night you see teams double and triple Johnson... that leaves the floor wide open for Marvin to do something.

Yeah i seen that, but EVERYONE benefits when JJ is double teamed. I like that Marv takes advantage of JJ's double team, especially after JJ only passes the ball with 8 or less seconds left on the shot clock. Its no doubt that JJ is our superstar but i think Marv is the second best player on the team and that some of the offense needs to run through Marv when JJ is on the bench.

Im still on the Marv bandwagon and i hope he shows up big again this afternoon.

[exodus]

This three point shooting slump is a team-wide phenomenon.

Mike Bibby: 47.1% in November, 36.7% in December.

Mo Evans: 50.9% in November, 14,3% in December.

Joe Johnson: 38.5% in November, 32.9% in December.

Perhaps there are other factors than Marvin's "fading" which are at the root of this cause? Can anyone here really argue that the half court offense is not stagnant and resulting in a lot of shots jacked up late in the shot clock? The team is settling for jumpers instead of creating open looks. We got away with this for while because teams knew we were a poor jumpshooting team last year, and were willing to let guys hang around the perimeter.

And his overall shooting % was at its lowest point while his scoring average dipped under 20.

Exactly.

There is no way that last years start can be considered "hot" for JJ not matter how hard you try to rationalize it.

it is a given that the offensive execution blows. But even so Marvin should be more productive than he is. He shouldn't be diving out of control into people and throwing up garbage shots, as he did so often during his 1-10 outing in Miami.

Almost every jumper he takes is an open one. He rarely shoots a jumper when he creates space for himself off the dribble. Therefore his inconsistency is a little harder to justify. 81% of Marvin's baskets in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock are assisted. He isn't creating for himself at the end of the clock.

[thefloydian]

I was on when it was one of those little red wagons that you have to pull.

[mrhonline]

If for his defense alone, I am 'all aboard.'

Talk all you want about his offense, his defense has become superb.

[exodus]

Tonights game is a perfect case in point. Nique was commenting that Marvin got the ball in position to score but didn't even look to score. Then on the break late in the game he could have taken it in himself but he passed to Smith who had nowhere to go and ended up charging.

[thefloydian]

Yeah. I would rather Marvin take the ball to the hole than Smith anyway if all other things are equal. Marvin looks more in control than Smith does going to the hoop this year.

[macdaddy]

I have not been a big believer in Marvin at anytime, but I'm starting to feel like the scouts weren't idiots. There is something there that could make him a great player. I used to not want him on the floor and now I wish he had the ball more and looked to score more. He seems to have gotten his body under control and you can see that he really is very coordinated.

Of all the comparisons I've thought of for Marvin it finally dawned on me last week. His potential is Paul Pierce. Marvin is a load and should be able to over power a lot of SFs in the league.

[Popeye]

Facts about Marvin:

He is a great defender, he contests every single shot.

He is much stronger this year than previous years.

He can shoot, but only when he is squared to the basket.

He is a good spot up shooter.

He is not a good off the dribble shooter.

He can't create for him self consistently.

He takes care of the ball and plays smart. ( 1.07 TO per game)

He is a good rebounder when he wants to be.

He is too passive sometimes.

He is best at corner 3's.

He doesn't have a post up game.

He is a poor finisher in traffic.

[bronnt]

Marvin Williams bandwagon seen rolling very slowly on Impact Drive.

Today in downtown Atlanta on Impact drive, there was a bandwagon with about 9 fans onboard and it was rolling about 5 mph. The driver of the bandwagon was Atlanta Hawk Marvin Williams. The bandwagon was a strange site because it was rolling very slowly and holding up traffic on the downtown street. Mr. Williams said that he was on his way to Philips arena, however, his bandwagon could not make it up the hill to Marietta street. Further investigation showed that the Marvin Williams bandwagon was stuck in neutral and could not gather the momentum to make it up the hill on Impact Drive.

Fortunately for those 9 fans, the Atlanta district Chris Paul Bandwagon was able to zip by and offer them a ride to the Arena. Mr. Williams immediately jumped onto the Chris Paul Bandwagon, but there were several of the fans who refused to get off of the Marvin Williams bandwagon. A quick view of the Chris Paul Bandwagon revealed that former GM Billy Knight and current star Joe Johnson were among the members riding on the Chris Paul bandwagon.

Amazing that this thread made it 41 posts before any mention of Chris Paul.

[tonegully]

who cares about Chris Paul. Instead of comparing him to other draft picks. Lets compare Marvin's seasons. He has improved every year. I mean lets face it. He will never be a MVP, but he is valuable to the Hawks as Smoove is.

Marv plays passive but i think its just that UNC in him. He is a team player. I think JJ should tell him to be more aggressive and take more shots. He looks up to JJ.

Its not his fault he was picked number 2 overall. Save that trash talk for BK.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I dont care what anyone says. We need to run some of the offense through Marvin. Marv is a threat at the 3pt line and he can attack the basket. He is becoming a young poor man's Scottie Pippen, and Marv is what 22?

I seriously wish he took more shots a game. He should at least take 15 shots a game. He's too good a scorer not to