Woody said to Acie “That’s why I don’t play you” - on camera

[AtLaS]

I believe he said it, and it's not even a bad thing, as said earlier from Dolfan and myself I've heard my coaches say much worse things during games to players. People who've never played organized sports would think this is a bad thing, fact is it's quite normal. Statements like those motivate players and often work.

[bronnt]

I would like to see "Woody chastised in public the way he did Acie. Told he doesn't know how to coach and get it on TV. Would serve him right.

I think even more damning would be if Flip Murray took the ball in the backcourt, dribbled the ball by himself all the down to the baseline, getting trapped, having the ball stolen, and then immediately committing a foul, only to have Woodson call him to the bench, give him a pat, and say "That's okay, that's why I play you."

That would be crazy. :computer8:

[coachx]

Surely somebody here has the game recorded and can clarify whether or not Woody actually said this, right?

I went home and played it over about 10 times last night. It occured in the last seconds of the 2nd quarter as Law was running down the court after the turnover.

The microphone on the floor actually caught Woody'd first 3 words..."Thats why I.........." I hooked up the surround sound and blasted it and could not hear what else he said. He kind of mumbled the last bit so I could not read his lips either.

The words play and you seem fairly easy to read lips for and I could not make those words come out of Woody's lips no matter how many times I watched it.

What is more important to me is in the 2 previous possessions Law drove to the hole 2 times in a row. One time he made the lay up and on the next possesion he got fouled and made his 2 free throws. So why would the head coach not focus on the positives ? Why tear your young PG down about a TO. Tell him he had some great drive sto the basket keep being aggressive.....on that turnover you just picked up your dribble to early and you know your too good to be doing that so stay aggresssive......That is how you talk to young PG ! Right ?

It was quite refreshing to see a PG break down the defense so easily since we just don't see that from Bibby's style............When we struggle to get easy jumpers and Bibby's shot is off I have no clue why Law does not play more when he can get to the rim for a good shot attempt at will.

One thing about Woodson we sometims forget to pay attnention to why he is the way he is...........He is from the old school Larry Brown / Bobby Knight style of coaching where your a bit arguementative and stress defense.

Edited January 22, 2009 by coachx

[Guest]

I believe several people, including myself, have verified this. So 3 or 4 people on this message board, a ton of people on the blog and you guys are still claiming it's BS? Woody said it, accept it and move on.

And a lot of people have claimed Big Foot exists in blogs and message boards all around the world. Your point is we should accept it and move on?

How hard is it for someone who has this Tivoed to upload it? I am asking because I simply don't know, and also as a way for someone to explain to all these people who have it Tivoed and have already promised to upload it in this very thread to actually do that.

[Admin]

I went home and played it over about 10 times last night. It occured in the last seconds of the 2nd quarter as Law was running down the court after the turnover.

The microphone on the floor actually caught Woody'd first 3 words..."Thats why I.........." I hooked up the surround sound and blasted it and could not hear what else he said. He kind of mumbled the last bit so I could not read his lips either.

The words play and you seem fairly easy to read lips for and I could not make those words come out of Woody's lips no matter how many times I watched it.

What is more important to me is in the 2 previous possessions Law drove to the hole 2 times in a row. One time he made the lay up and on the next possesion he got fouled and made his 2 free throws. So why would the head coach not focus on the positives ? Why tear your young PG down about a TO. Tell him he had some great drive sto the basket keep being aggressive.....on that turnover you just picked up your dribble to early and you know your too good to be doing that so stay aggresssive......That is how you talk to young PG ! Right ?

It was quite refreshing to see a PG break down the defense so easily since we just don't see that from Bibby's style............When we struggle to get easy jumpers and Bibby's shot is off I have no clue why Law does not play more when he can get to the rim for a good shot attempt at will.

One thing about Woodson we sometims forget to pay attnention to why he is the way he is...........He is from the old school Larry Brown / Bobby Knight style of coaching where your a bit arguementative and stress defense.

See that's what I'm talking about, you watched it 10 times and couldn't make out what was said and yet others have claimed that they were able to either hear or read his lips on what he said and I'm wondering if it's not more of a case of someone putting a suggestion in your mind with their claim and then your mind automatically makes it seem like he said that. If it was so obvious that he said what has been claimed then I think you would have picked up on it after 10 times of watching it.

As Atlas mentioned above there are far worse things that coaches say at all levels and I'd bet this is very low on the scale of negative things that the players hear on an NBA team.

My issue is that I didn't see the game and I've yet to see a clip of it because as Hawksfanatic alluded to it's one thing to hear someone say they heard something and it's completely another to hear/see it for yourself.

Is it even remotely possible that he said something else after "Thats why I.........."? He could have said that's why I called this play or something else similar. I'm not saying anyone is lying about this but I'd like to hear/see it for myself is all.

Thanks for giving some feedback on what you saw and when it happens. Hopefully that archive site will have the game up soon but they don't have any archive games after the 15th and the ones I've tried to play aren't working so maybe the NBA got wise to them and stopped it.

[Dsinner]

And a lot of people have claimed Big Foot exists in blogs and message boards all around the world. Your point is we should accept it and move on?

How hard is it for someone who has this Tivoed to upload it? I am asking because I simply don't know, and also as a way for someone to explain to all these people who have it Tivoed and have already promised to upload it in this very thread to actually do that.

Right, because claiming to see bigfoot and claiming Woodson would tell Acie "that's why I don't play you" are the same thing. Brilliant man. Just brilliant.

I have a Dish DVR and for whatever reasons they won't allow me to download programs off of the receiver or I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

[Dsinner]

See that's what I'm talking about, you watched it 10 times and couldn't make out what was said and yet others have claimed that they were able to either hear or read his lips on what he said and I'm wondering if it's not more of a case of someone putting a suggestion in your mind with their claim and then your mind automatically makes it seem like he said that. If it was so obvious that he said what has been claimed then I think you would have picked up on it after 10 times of watching it.

So believe the one person who couldn't make it out against the other dozens or so who heard it. Don't forget the fact that Woody didn't play Acie much, if at all, after the comment was made. Not to mention the fact that Woody obviously doesn't like Acie for whatever reason. I'm sure if there was an actual BigFoot and it walked up to some of you and slapped you in the mouth you'd still say "prove it".

[Diesel]

I believe he said it, and it's not even a bad thing, as said earlier from Dolfan and myself I've heard my coaches say much worse things during games to players. People who've never played organized sports would think this is a bad thing, fact is it's quite normal. Statements like those motivate players and often work.

That's BS... I've played Organized Sports on a lot of levels and that kind of statement doesn't motivate a player. Even Phil Jackson wouldn't treat Horace Grant to those kinda of words. There is a way to motivate with negative feedback, but

1. Woody never shows any praise or reward to offset that negative comment.

2. A coach never wants to put himself in direct odds with a player who he doesn't play much. It defeats the player's spirit...

So if you think it's such a good motivational tool.. tell me why it is that Acie worked his *ss off all summer and Flip who commits more turnovers than Acie and does more stupid stuff as a PG gets 3 times the playing time as Acie?

His name is Acie Law IV, and the Hawks haven’t yet seen one-fourth of what he can do. At Texas A&M, he was fearless. As an NBA rookie, he played scared.

He was afraid he’d mess up, afraid he’d get benched, so afraid of doing the wrong thing that he didn’t do much of anything. This isn’t uncommon with rookies, rookie point guards especially, but Law knew even as he was hesitating how hesitant he’d become.

“I was tense [last season],” he said Wednesday, following the Hawks’ exhibition loss to Phoenix. “I wasn’t aggressive. I was real passive. I was kind of trying to play mistake-free and not to make coach mad.”

Over the summer he watched video of himself and barely recognized the guy he saw. Had he left his collegiate persona — Captain Clutch, as he was known — in College Station? Whatever became of the daring young man who’d starred in a series of televised Big 12 instant classics?

“I’ve got to get back to that,” Law said, and he does. “Last year was a learning experience. I was trying to play for coach and I had a lot of injuries.”

Mike Woodson, the Hawks’ coach, points to the latter as the cause of that forgettable rookie season. (Law sprained his right wrist in November and again in February.) Said Woodson: “Last year he was hurt, and when a young player gets hurt and misses time you’ve got to go through a month of reprogramming. He was on and off so much he never got in the flow.”

It’s also worth noting that Woodson’s coaching mentors are Bobby Knight and Larry Brown, neither of whom is renowned for patience with younger players. When Law did play extended minutes, he all but forgot about his jump shot for fear of missing one. (When a veteran misses a jumper, the typical coach says, “Oh, he’ll make the next one.” When a rookie misses the same shot, the same coach says, “Get him out of there.”)

“I was in between,” Law said. “The coach says he wants me to be aggressive, but I’d be afraid of being aggressive and making a mistake. … I lost confidence. Some games I could feel it — I didn’t want to miss a shot. And I knew I could always get to the basket, so I tried to do that.”

What made Law special at A&M was his capacity to hurt an opponent either way: Play him tight and he’d drive; back off and he’d nail the trey. He all but abandoned the latter part as a Hawk, more than halving his effectiveness.

And now for the good news: He’s again starting to dance with what made him a lottery pick. He’s thinking less and playing more.

It was Law’s layup with 4.6 seconds left that beat Charlotte on Monday, and he drove again at the end of Wednesday’s game with the Hawks down two. This time Louis Amundson blocked the shot, but even Woodson conceded, “Acie made a great play at the rim.”

Would Law have been so bold a year ago? “Probably not,” he said. “I’m not going to lie. I probably would have passed off.”

Some folks have forgotten about Law. They shouldn’t. His development will be a major consideration as this franchise moves forward. If Law matures quickly, the high-salaried Mike Bibby could be dealt at the trading deadline. Granted, there’s a wide gulf between doing mop-up duty, to which Law was relegated in the playoff series against Boston, and starting at the point for a playoff team, but he’s skilled enough to negotiate it.

“That won’t be the last time we make the playoffs,” said Law, speaking of those seven games against the Celtics. “And, God willing, I’ll be leading the team.”

Where's the reward?

[Guest]

Right, because claiming to see bigfoot and claiming Woodson would tell Acie "that's why I don't play you" are the same thing. Brilliant man. Just brilliant.

I have a Dish DVR and for whatever reasons they won't allow me to download programs off of the receiver or I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

Then its simple, produce the evidence. Oh wait, but you already told us it happened. All hail DSinner, the encyclopedia of knowledge!!! Let's all be a bunch of gullible peons who only believe what you say! May I ask what the meaning of life is since you are the ultimate source of knowledge?

Give me a break, we ask for evidence and you say that people from message boards claiming it is enough evidence. Well guess what, people on message boards claim a lot of things that doesn't mean they are true. If you want people to believe you, cite your source. I will help you out, message boards and blogs are not credible sources.

[Traceman]

Flip plays more than Acie because he is better than Acie. Yes, he turns the ball over too much but he also is a reliable scoring threat and he forces the D to account for him. Acie does not do that. He does not look for his shot as much as he should because he lacks confidence. Look at this quote from the article you linked:

“ I was in between,” Law said. “The coach says he wants me to be aggressive, but I’d be afraid of being aggressive and making a mistake. … I lost confidence. Some games I could feel it — I didn’t want to miss a shot. And I knew I could always get to the basket, so I tried to do that.”

What made Law special at A&M was his capacity to hurt an opponent either way: Play him tight and he’d drive; back off and he’d nail the trey. He all but abandoned the latter part as a Hawk, more than halving his effectiveness.

Acie still plays scared. Woody tells him to be aggressive but he is afraid to make a mistake. At some point, Acie had better realize that he is not going to make it in this league being scared. He might very well make too many mistakes and not make it because of that but at least he will give himself a CHANCE to be successful by being aggressive.

[Admin]

That's BS... I've played Organized Sports on a lot of levels and that kind of statement doesn't motivate a player. Even Phil Jackson wouldn't treat Horace Grant to those kinda of words. There is a way to motivate with negative feedback, but

Just because it doesn't motivate YOU doesn't mean that it doesn't motivate other players. Bobby Knight has made a career out of this type of motivation and he's had recruits lining up to play for him. So has Bill Parcells, hell he even called TO a girl in front of the national media, and he's never had trouble getting a job or finding players that will play for less money to play for him. I've seen Pat Riley jump all over his players and again he's never had trouble getting a job or finding players to play for him. What he said to Acie (if he said it) is nothing. It's making a mountain out of a mole hill.

1. Woody never shows any praise or reward to offset that negative comment.

Woody never shows praise? That may be the most fictitious thing you've ever typed on here. There are probably at least 100 different articles online where Woody praises a player for his hard work and ironically enough I'm fairly certain it was Woody who praised Acie for the work he put in this summer.

2. A coach never wants to put himself in direct odds with a player who he doesn't play much. It defeats the player's spirit...

Really? So you think that a coach is going to worry so much about the spirit of a guy that doesn't play much that he'll refrain from criticizing him? That's a new one to me.

So if you think it's such a good motivational tool.. tell me why it is that Acie worked his *ss off all summer and Flip who commits more turnovers than Acie and does more stupid stuff as a PG gets 3 times the playing time as Acie?

How has Acie's hard work this summer translated to this season? His numbers haven't improved much and once again he's injured. Flip has a lower A/TO ratio but he also scores more and helps the team win more games. He's had several big time shots this year that have been a big factor in wins.

Look at the Hollinger comparison for Flip and Law this year.

Player 1

SEASON	FG%	FT%	P/40	R/40	A/40	TS%	Ast	TO	Usg	Reb	PER

2008-09 	.410	.795	13.2	4.4	6.1	51.9	28.2	12.9	17.9	6.5	11.68[/code]




[code]Player 2

SEASON	FG%	FT%	P/40	R/40	A/40	TS%	Ast	TO	Usg	Reb	PER

2008-09 	.422	.768	17.6	3.9	2.8	51.9	12.4	13.6	21.4	5.8	11.68

Can you guess which player is which? The only glaring differences between them is that player 1 is much better in assists while player 2 is better in scoring. Other than that they've got identical TS% and PER as well as comparable turnover ratio's. Certainly nothing that jumps out at you and says "WTF player x should be playing a lot more".

What Hollinger says about Law:

2007-08 season: Here's one Law that doesn't have long arms -- he didn't block a shot all season and had the fifth-worst rebound rate in basketball. What vexed the Hawks more was his inability to score. Law shot only 40.1 percent, made just seven 3-pointers the entire season, and had a below-average free-throw rate; in addition he was almost as bad on long 2-pointers (31.5 percent) as he was on 3s. All told he was 65th among the league's 71 point guards in TS%.

That's particularly damning in his case because he was drafted more as a scorer than a passer. Law's pure point rating was in the bottom quarter of point guards and his turnover ratio in particular was way too high for a secondary player.

Take it all together and he had the third-worst PER at his position -- not the kind of impact the Hawks were hoping to get from a 22-year-old rookie who, theoretically, should have been in position to contribute more quickly than other first-rounders. To add insult to injury, he was selected one spot ahead of Thaddeus Young and four ahead of Rodney Stuckey -- a final sendoff to Hawks fans from departed GM Billy Knight.

Scouting report: While Law's rookie year was disastrous, he does have some tools. He's 6-3 and fairly quick for his size, though not a leaper or finisher. Right now his biggest weakness is a reluctance to pull the trigger when he's left open on the perimeter -- something that happened often last year. He shot decently from outside in college, and if he can become a credible pro shooter that should open more driving lanes and allow his offensive game to flourish.

Defensively, I've seen worse. Law isn't a great athlete and as a rookie took his lumps on occasion, but he has good size for the point and decent quickness, and in time he should be decent at that end.

2008-09 outlook: The Hawks have basically handed Law the backup point guard job in spite of his poor rookie year, so he'll be given every opportunity to justify where he was selected in the draft. It all comes down to the J -- if he improves his jumper he'll likely score enough to be a passable backup, but otherwise he's really going to struggle.

Most similar at age: Daniel Ewing

Key

FG%: Field-goal Percentage

FT%: Free-throw Percentage

P/40: Points per 40 minutes

R/40: Rebounds per 40 minutes

A/40: Assists per 40 minutes

TS%: True Shooting Percentage calculates what a player’s shooting percentage would be if we accounted for free throws and 3-pointers. True Shooting Percentage = (Total points x 50) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44)]

Ast: Assist Ratio is the percentage of a player’s possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]

Reb: Rebound Rate is the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds. Rebound Rate = (Rebounds x Team Minutes) divided by [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)]

PER: Player Efficiency Rating is my overall rating of a player’s per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.

TO: Turnover Ratio is the percentage of a player’s possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]

Usg: Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

Most similar at age is the player who was the most similar to this one at the same age using my Similarity Scores formula. Similarity Scores compare players on several statistical and physical criteria to find the best comparisons from the recent past. These are also used to help generate the projected stats for 2008-09, which appear at the bottom of the chart for each player who played more than 500 minutes.

I'd like to see Acie get more minutes and Flip get fewer minutes but if the veteran presence, scoring ability, and superior defense of Flip helps us win more games then that is the most important thing.

The last thing I'll say is that to me it seems we've got another Salim type of situation on our hands where people are getting their panties twisted over a below average NBA player whom they (myself included) projected much loftier expectations upon based on draft position.

[Admin]

So believe the one person who couldn't make it out against the other dozens or so who heard it. Don't forget the fact that Woody didn't play Acie much, if at all, after the comment was made. Not to mention the fact that Woody obviously doesn't like Acie for whatever reason. I'm sure if there was an actual BigFoot and it walked up to some of you and slapped you in the mouth you'd still say "prove it".

Where did I say that I believed whether or not Woody said that to Acie? My point was that if it was so obvious that we should all believe what you say then why didn't he see it in the 10 times that he watched it? I'm not going to believe that he did say it or that he didn't say it until I see it with my own eyes or until I hear Woody or Acie talk about it.

[AtLaS]

There is a way to motivate with negative feedback, but

1. Woody never shows any praise or reward to offset that negative comment.

So, you're there during every practice? You hear every comment that Woodson makes to Acie during the season?

So if you think it's such a good motivational tool.. tell me why it is that Acie worked his *ss off all summer and Flip who commits more turnovers than Acie and does more stupid stuff as a PG gets 3 times the playing time as Acie?

Because Woodson is an idiot. All I'm saying is that I don't think the statement was that bad in terms of negativity, I'm not defending him as a coach. I don't agree with playing Flip over Acie at PG at all. That's a completely different issue.

Memphis just fired Iavaroni and offered Avery a 5 year deal but was turned down. I wish the ASG would get a clue and do the same, I think Avery would consider this job.

[NineOhTheRino]

Acie can only blame himeself. I like Acie. I think he's ready to be an All-Star but he needs work on his relationship with Woody.

[Admin]

Because Woodson is an idiot. All I'm saying is that I don't think the statement was that bad in terms of negativity, I'm not defending him as a coach. I don't agree with playing Flip over Acie at PG at all. That's a completely different issue.

Man I swear you guys through that word around far too often. It's as ridiculous as calling Allen Iverson a thug a few years ago because of his practice habits.

idiot

id⋅i⋅ot –noun

1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.

2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

Woodson may make some decisions that us armchair coaches think are idiotic but he's far from an idiot and even those decisions that we armchair coaches deem to be idiotic most likely have some degree of multi-person discussion to them.

What really cracks me up is that not a single person here that calls him an idiot is capable of doing his job.

[AHF]

Acie still plays scared. Woody tells him to be aggressive but he is afraid to make a mistake. At some point, Acie had better realize that he is not going to make it in this league being scared. He might very well make too many mistakes and not make it because of that but at least he will give himself a CHANCE to be successful by being aggressive.

It is not very meaningful to me that a coach tells someone to be aggressive if that same coach also yanks them off the floor when they make aggressive mistakes. If Woodson really wants to encourage Acie to score, he should give him time on the floor and only pull him if he is an absolute disaster or if he passes up a good shot. He should never be pulled for missing a good shot. Acie needs to know that Woodson demands he take the shots he is suposed to take in our offense and that Woodson will keep giving him minutes even when he misses.

Somehow, I don't see that message getting through with the way the minutes have been distributed this season. If Woodson gave Law a steady 8-10 minutes per game this could be done more easily.

[Admin]

It is not very meaningful to me that a coach tells someone to be aggressive if that same coach also yanks them off the floor when they make aggressive mistakes. If Woodson really wants to encourage Acie to score, he should give him time on the floor and only pull him if he is an absolute disaster or if he passes up a good shot. He should never be pulled for missing a good shot. Acie needs to know that Woodson demands he take the shots he is suposed to take in our offense and that Woodson will keep giving him minutes even when he misses.

Somehow, I don't see that message getting through with the way the minutes have been distributed this season. If Woodson gave Law a steady 8-10 minutes per game this could be done more easily.

Agreed, but has Woodson pulled Acie for missing shots or making aggressive mistakes? Even according to this thread Woody said that the reason he doesn't play him is because of turnovers. Turnovers can come from being too aggressive or they can come from making poor decisions or a lack of concentration and none of us knows why he commits the turnovers that he does but considering none of our other regulars get pulled for their turnovers I'd have to assume that Woody sees the turnovers that Acie makes as being distinctly different, either that or he's trying to teach him differently since he's a young PG unlike our other players. I do know from my experience with organized basketball that coaches tend to be harder on PG's and have higher expectations of them because they are supposed to be the coach on the floor.

[Traceman]

Agreed, but has Woodson pulled Acie for missing shots or making aggressive mistakes? Even according to this thread Woody said that the reason he doesn't play him is because of turnovers. Turnovers can come from being too aggressive or they can come from making poor decisions or a lack of concentration and none of us knows why he commits the turnovers that he does but considering none of our other regulars get pulled for their turnovers I'd have to assume that Woody sees the turnovers that Acie makes as being distinctly different, either that or he's trying to teach him differently since he's a young PG unlike our other players. I do know from my experience with organized basketball that coaches tend to be harder on PG's and have higher expectations of them because they are supposed to be the coach on the floor.

Exactly. I could certainly be wrong but I don't recall seeing Woody pull Acie for taking a good shot and missing. I have however seen him pull him for passing up a wide open shot only to drive into traffic and turn it over (or get his shot blocked).

[macdaddy]

That's the point though. He gets pulled for making mistakes whether its turnovers or bad shots. And its not like he gets pulled every game because he makes a mistake. He'll make a mistake and not see the floor for two weeks. Its hard to be aggressive like that.

All you need to do is look at Salim. Salim was almost always aggressive when he had the ball but it didn't help him see more playing time.

[Cwell]

Exactly. I could certainly be wrong but I don't recall seeing Woody pull Acie for taking a good shot and missing. I have however seen him pull him for passing up a wide open shot only to drive into traffic and turn it over (or get his shot blocked).

i've seen him pulled even when he's not making mistakes and is making plays as well as hitting his shots.