It's A Perfect Time To Ask This Question

[Diesel]

Last night Bibby and JJ both having off shooting nights was the problem and JackB1 said the same thing in a thread earlier and we was spot on.

Bibby was missing wide open shots. Nothing wrong with last nights game plan. Players were moving very well without the ball and recognizing matchup advantages:

1. going to Flip in the post repeatedly with little Nate on him. Smart coaching and recognition !

2. Letting Marvin drive around the slow footed Galarani. Smart coaching to recognize your matchup advantages

3. Posting up Smith in the paint repeatedly. What we wanted to see for the last 4 years !

4. Good ball movement off JJ's double teams in the post.

5. Hawks scored between 15 -20 fastbreak points off Knicks turnovers (running when the oppurtunity presented itself).

That looks like a good gameplan to me !

So what type of offense do we run?

Is it a motion?

Is it a pick and roll?

Is it a pick and fence?

Do we have an inside out game?

Do we run our best player off of screens like Indy used to do?

Or

Do we have playground isolations?

You see an offensive gameplan is not dependent on if Marvin or Flip gets hot! It's an offensive identity. Under Sloan, you can count on Utah to run a Pick and roll. You know it's coming and most of the time you can't stop it. When he picks players, he picks players who fit into his system. In LAL, their gameplan fits around being able to play the triangle. In Boston, they use the old school dribble drive motion offense.

When you look at our guys, we iso joe or we allow Joe to find an open perimeter shooter... if he feels like passing to that guy. In the NBA, it's so rare that you have mismatches, but even when you call yourself playing a mismatch, it's still iso... we are running a playground offense. My commentary is that with our players and their skillsets, we can be doing a whole lot more than just waiting on a mismatch and trying to capitalize off of the break until it comes.

[Diesel]

Our offense is fine when we're healthy. We've proven that we can beat or almost beat any team in the league. We're missing Horford which has obviously hurt us but more than anything our guys are just exhausted. Woody has failed to use his bench properly and our entire team is showing that they are tired as poor FT shooting is often a sign of fatigue.

Last night, I almost fell out my chair when I saw Acie, Flip, Mo, Marvin, and Solo in the game at the same time. Woody must have taken a bathroom break and somebody else called the rotations.

One thing about Acie did catch my eye. He is slow on defensive rotations. Still, I think he doesn't play much because Woody has never liked him.

[Admin]

Last night, I almost fell out my chair when I saw Acie, Flip, Mo, Marvin, and Solo in the game at the same time. Woody must have taken a bathroom break and somebody else called the rotations.

One thing about Acie did catch my eye. He is slow on defensive rotations. Still, I think he doesn't play much because Woody has never liked him.

Woody's rotations do suck but if he doesn't have much talent on the bench and his starters aren't playing well what can he do? They are already exhausted so he has to get them some rest but we're short 2 quality bench bigs and I'm just not sure that without a trade we won't continue to fade in the 2nd half.

[Popeye]

The main play of our "offensive" system is:

1. Give the ball to Joe 2. Wait for the double team or Joe runs into double team. 3. Joe find the open man if you can. 4. Give the ball to Smoove because everyone else is covered.

This is how the opponents defend it:

1. Wait till Joe gets the ball. 2 Double Joe hard to force a turnover or prevent him from passing. 3. Cover all players except Smoove, unless he is under basket. 4. Let Smoove take the jumper or commit a turnover.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Murat1

[Diesel]

Woody's rotations do suck but if he doesn't have much talent on the bench and his starters aren't playing well what can he do? They are already exhausted so he has to get them some rest but we're short 2 quality bench bigs and I'm just not sure that without a trade we won't continue to fade in the 2nd half.

I have to disagree that he doesn't have much talent on the bench:

Flip = Talent.

Mo = Talent.

Acie = Talent.

Solo = Talent

Zaza = Talent

Rio = Talent

There are 6 guys on our bench that are talented. Not neccessarily starter quality talentd but 10-15 mpg talented.

The problem is that Woody has an 7-8 Man rotation and he's not willing to develop any of the younger guys. We call that squandering talent. That's what makes basketball coaching hard. You have to either have a GM who will get you vet power for your bench or you have to be willing to develop young players.

Solo was a beast in college. Solo has grown as a Hawk and could be a beast now. But if we never develop him, he won't be.

Acie was a guy filled with confidence, with big time game coming out of college. Now, you see him and he questions himself, he is hard on himself and that's because Woody doesn't play him consistently and doesn't reward him for good play like he scolds him for bad play.

and so on and so on.

[frosgrim]

The team's current struggles were predicted by almost all us back in the late Fall. Not playing the bench early has shown to be about as short sighted a decission as Woodson could make; well, that and the 2 foul rule, and maybe the iso JJ every freaking play.

In terms of trading Bibby. I would do it if we could get a young vet, Hinrich, in return. If not, keep Bibby and try to sign him in the offseason. The really isn't much the Hawks can do right now. The bench is in desperate need of an infusion of either a PG (that Woody will play) and/or a big. However, the cost will be at what little depth we have. In essence, Sund's hands are close to tied due to Woodson's incompetence.

In sum, I don't think we are even having this conversation if we had a better HC that knew how to build a bench. As is, we are debating trading one of the main reasons we are were we are today. Only in Hawks world...

:shake_puter:

[Traceman]

Our offense is fine when we're healthy. We've proven that we can beat or almost beat any team in the league. We're missing Horford which has obviously hurt us but more than anything our guys are just exhausted. Woody has failed to use his bench properly and our entire team is showing that they are tired as poor FT shooting is often a sign of fatigue.

I think fatigue is part of the problem but I also think that as currently constructed, we need ALL FIVE starters to be healthy in order to have a chance to win consistently. I just don't think we have the quality depth needed to withstand injuries.

Woody already plays the starters too much and when you throw in an injury to a starter, the rest of the starters play even more to make up for that loss. I think we can win a game or two here and there without any of our starters but if any of them miss any significant time, we are going to struggle.

When Horford comes back, it won't surprise me a bit to see JJ and Bibby all of a sudden find the range and get back on track. I sure hope so. I don't think either of them could play any worse than they have during this last 3 game skid.

[NineOhTheRino]

Woody's rotations do suck but if he doesn't have much talent on the bench and his starters aren't playing well what can he do? They are already exhausted so he has to get them some rest but we're short 2 quality bench bigs and I'm just not sure that without a trade we won't continue to fade in the 2nd half.

I agree with you 100.2% . Too much is placed on Woody. Woody is not out there missing open jumper and FTs.

[LOL_Hawks]

I think someone in this thread put it best: lmao @ this being the perfect time when it comes after Bibby's two worst games of the year. Where was this talk when he was lighting it up for most of this season?

[coachx]

Is it a motion?

The team was moving quite well without the ball last night. Sure there are stretches of any game where any team gets stagnant. Thats when you need that post up anchor, which Smoove is starting to become. You can't expect your guys to run around all night in an up tempo game.

Is it a pick and roll?

Yes they do run the pick and roll, though it does not do much good when Bibby and JJ are ice cold. In fact Bibby and ZaZa have formed pretty good chemistry on it as of late. Smoove has been a benefactor of it as well. Unfortunately both of those guys are better at rolling to the hoop vs. popping out for a shot. When Bibby is hot he calls this a good bit. When he is not he does not call it..............Its a constant game of adjustments. When Horford comes back it will be used more with Bibby. I think Bibby has the green light to call this whenever he wants and when he's hot he calls it a lot. When he is cold, like last night, he does not call it a lot.

Also when JJ is on iso, he often times calls for Smoove to come over to either post up or to set a screen and roll.

Is it a pick and fence?

Have no clue what that means. Is that pick and pop ? There is so much basketball slang out there.

Do we have an inside out game?

Not really but they try to with the personnel they have. JJ posted up a few times and scored before the double team got there and when the double team did come he kicked it out to Bibby, Flip, or Marvin and it worked last night with Flip and Marvin making shots. Smoove posted up a lot but really is not drawing double teams yet but if he keeps his inside scoring up teams will have no choice but to double him. If we had a consistent post scorer, who commanded double teams, I'm sure they would run the inside / outside game more from the post more. They're not as stupid as some believe.

Right now they can really only play an inside / outside game based on dribble drive penetration and kick outs. Either Horford or Smith have to develop into that double team threat in the post.........as we have discussed over and over and over and over....

Do we run our best player off of screens like Indy used to do?

Yes, JJ is run off screens all the time, though some won't admit it, maybe b/c the camera and their own eyes are focused on Bibby bringing the ball up rather then the baseline cuts and screens players are setting and running. JJ is run off double screens a lot, in fact, and either curls at the elbow or kicks out to the corner or angle 3.

It also takes a lot out of you to constantly run around screens AND guard the oppositions best wing player at the same time............Thats why posting JJ up on occasions to expend less energy is so vital.

Or

Do we have playground isolations?

Yes we have isolations with JJ as every team in the NBA does with an all star caliber SG. However, their are several basic variations JJ can choose:

1. Take your man 1 on 1 the basic

2. Back him down in the post for a double team and then kick it out as we have seen all year

3. Call Smoove into the post, since the side of the court is already cleared out, and give Smoove a post up opportunity

4. Call Smoove over for a screen and roll

Basketball is simple. You just play off what the defense gives you unless your hot enough to take whatever you want. Unfortunately last night, our leader JJ / Bibby, were not hot at all from the perimeter.

You see an offensive game plan is not dependent on if Marvin or Flip gets hot! It's an offensive identity. Under Sloan, you can count on Utah to run a Pick and roll. You know it's coming and most of the time you can't stop it. When he picks players, he picks players who fit into his system. In LAL, their gameplan fits around being able to play the triangle. In Boston, they use the old school dribble drive motion offense.

Thanks for enlightening us that a offensive game plan is not dependent on Marvin or Flip getting hot. However, when they are hot you have to go to them right ?

In fact, I think we do run a TON of he dribble drive motion offense muck like the Celtics and Calipari in Memphis / NCAA...........Too bad our PG can't drive in the paint with consistency but other s guys can and most nights Bibby is an excellent option to drive and kick too. That is how Bibby, Flip, and Marvin have gotten many of their 3 point looks this year.

When you look at our guys, we iso joe or we allow Joe to find an open perimeter shooter... if he feels like passing to that guy. In the NBA, it's so rare that you have mismatches, but even when you call yourself playing a mismatch, it's still iso... we are running a playground offense. My commentary is that with our players and their skillsets, we can be doing a whole lot more than just waiting on a mismatch and trying to capitalize off of the break until it comes.

I agree to an extent but think the offensive gameplan from last night is being short changed by you here. The open shots were there for players who have made them their whole careers. If JJ and Bibby were not both ice cold, at the same time, the Hawks' offense would have looked really good. In fact had Bibby not shot 15% and JJ not shot 33% and Smoove shot maybe 60% from the line we would have been darn near unbeatable, even without Horford last night.

Good shooting changes a lot. Bad shooting can make good offensive sets look bad to the untrained eye.

I agree the Hawks offense is not a well oiled machine but think its short changed a lot on this board.

Edited January 29, 2009 by coachx

[jhay610]

You trade Bibby and you are stepping back. This team is not so young anymore and its window is narrowing.

I can't come up with a scenario in a Bibby trade that would bring us back someone that would put us in better position for the stretch and playoff runs.

Think of how long it took Bibby to find his groove with these guys. It takes a while for a team to mesh and some never even do.

To me you just ride this one out and continue to enjoy Bibby's big year (despite the swings in his play).

[Admin]

You trade Bibby and you are stepping back. This team is not so young anymore and its window is narrowing.

I can't come up with a scenario in a Bibby trade that would bring us back someone that would put us in better position for the stretch and playoff runs.

Think of how long it took Bibby to find his groove with these guys. It takes a while for a team to mesh and some never even do.

To me you just ride this one out and continue to enjoy Bibby's big year (despite the swings in his play).

Our window is narrowing? I think we're the 5th youngest team in the league and Bibby is still younger than what Nash was when he signed with Phoenix. Our window is far from being narrow and we definitely don't need to make any big moves.

[coachx]

If you recall, this question had been asked at the beginning of the season with only Bibby's 15 Million dollar ending contract being the major factor, now, we have seen him both at his best and worst. Most people should know that I'm for keeping Bibby, not just through this year, but resigning him at a reasonable rate for the next 4 years... However, today is a perfect day to stick our finger in the air and see what the Hawks fans think...

I agree with this part. Entering the year he was our most tradeable asset due to his huge expiring contract in a year where more teams then usual are cutting salary for the big names in 2010 FA class.

I was hoping Law would really step up this year and make Bibby expendable. Flip has stepped up and is a perfect scorer off the bench but not a starting PG by any means.

Right now I think he is too valuable, for this team, to trade away . Mainly b/c Law has not stepped like I hoped he would.

[jhay610]

Our window is narrowing? I think we're the 5th youngest team in the league and Bibby is still younger than what Nash was when he signed with Phoenix. Our window is far from being narrow and we definitely don't need to make any big moves.

It's not that narrow from an age perspective but Joe, Bibby, Marv, and Horf are all due to re-up either this year or next. There is the J-Chill situation that is still outstanding. It will be very near if not impossible to keep this team in tact as presently configured going forward due to cap and luxury tax considerations.

Joe and Bibby represent the bulk of our offensive punch and both are not getting any younger. Joe is an old 27 because of how Woody has run his legs off in each of his years in ATL.

So yes, IMO, the time for this team, as presently configured, to climax is this year and next. They could still be winners for several more years with this core but it will take some savvy from the front office to keep things moving in the right direction with the supporting pieces (and major pieces if Joe moves elsewhere or declines over the next year and 1/2), which most of us would agree has been in short supply for the past score of years or so.

This team could look a lot different for opening tip 2010-11.