Lets talk about Marvin

[exodus]

Many shots that are layups for Marvin would be dunks for Smith.

If you go overall inside there is about a 3% difference. Smith scores 8.4 ppg inside, Marvin only 4.1. In other words, Smith scores more than double the amount of points inside as Marvin and shoots a higher percentage.

Marvin gets blocked about 17% of the time and Smith only 8. Regardless, just watching him, Marvin just loses balance in the paint way too often. He rarely finishes with contact, I really can't remember the last time he had an and1.

I still agree he should get more shots, but Smith to me is easily the better slasher.

If Marvin really "can't finish inside" then wouldn't the difference be much greater than 3%?

[coachx]

I think Marvin Williams is good enough to be a #1 option on a sub .500 team.

I think for instance, if Marvin Williams had the green light to shoot of a Danny Granger and especially of a Kevin Durant, that he would easily average 20+ PPG and had a pretty decent stat line like 4 assists and 5 rebounds to go alongside it. And I don't think his shooting percentage would necessarily be poor either.

I agree 100% up to the last sentence.

Marvin is so effiecient b/c defenses never game plan to stop Marvin. He plays off other people and picks his spots. Granted their are time when we are in a dry spell and Marvin will take it hard to the wrack.

I'm just saying JJ, more often then not, draws the best wing defender and sees the double teams. Rarely if ever, is Marvin the defense's focus where he is doubled team and trapped over and over again as JJ is. If Marvin were the #1 option he would see this and it would most likely effect anyone's shooting %.

[AtLaS]

If Marvin really "can't finish inside" then wouldn't the difference be much greater than 3%?

My words were probably too forward, but the point I was trying to make was that Smith is the much better slasher (in response to the post I was quoting), and the numbers show that. IMO Marvin isn't capable of doubling his ppg in the paint while increasing his percentage down there. He's just not as good a slasher as Smith because he doesn't take contact well at all. If he gets contact he usually just falls down.

Hell, JJ shoots 60% inside but we know he's not near as good a slasher as Smith either.

Edited February 5, 2009 by AtLaS

[exodus]

My words were probably too forward, but the point I was trying to make was that Smith is the much better slasher (in response to the post I was quoting), and the numbers show that. IMO Marvin isn't capable of doubling his ppg in the paint while increasing his percentage down there. He's just not as good a slasher as Smith because he doesn't take contact well at all. If he gets contact he usually just falls down.

Hell, JJ shoots 60% inside but we know he's not near as good a slasher as Smith either.

Just because Marvin doesn't score as much inside as Smith or shoots 3% worse that doesn't mean he can't finish inside. You made that comment in the 3rd post of this thread and didn't quote any post.

Marvin scores the same ppg as JJ inside at a slightly higher percentage on far fewer touches.

[AtLaS]

Just because Marvin doesn't score as much inside as Smith or shoots 3% worse that doesn't mean he can't finish inside. You made that comment in the 3rd post of this thread and didn't quote any post.

I was too black and white with it, obviously. Regardless, I still don't think Marvin is that great inside. He'll have to consistently prove to me that he can get it done down there and driving before I'm ready to call him a #1 or 2 option.

[Admin]

Let me ask you guys this, why does Marvin need to be an equal scorer to Smith in the paint in order to be the #2 option? Considering that he's a SF I consider his mid-range and outside game to be more important than his inside game, although the inside game obviously has it's importance. Shouldn't we hold Smith to the same standard of proficiency and say that he should be near Marvin from mid-range and deep for him to be the #2 option?

You also have to factor in that Marvin is a significantly better FT shooter than Smith, especially so this year and I'd rather have confidence that my #2 guy will make his FT's whereas I've lost all confidence in Smith at the FT line this year. So regardless of whether Marvin gets an "And 1" or falls down when he gets fouled he's still scoring when he gets into the paint. Hell how often does Smith get an "And 1" when he can only be counted on to hit 1 of every 2 FT's he takes?

Another thing to consider if you're going to say that scoring inside is a requirement of a #2 option then what about Bibby? Technically speaking he is our #2 option by way of his number of shot attempts but he takes the vast majority (91%) of his shots from the outside and he rarely gets "And 1's" either.

My last question is this, does Smith's 3% (65%) advantage over Marvin (62%) on his effective FG% inside (close, dunks, tips) make up for his deficiency as a FT shooter compared to Marvin when you consider that Smith has a 1% higher drawn foul percentage but shoots 20% lower at the line?

[frosgrim]

I was too black and white with it, obviously. Regardless, I still don't think Marvin is that great inside. He'll have to consistently prove to me that he can get it done down there and driving before I'm ready to call him a #1 or 2 option.

I think the difference is coming from how we define slasher. For me, a slasher is a guy that has the handles to put the ball on the floor and get to the hole from the permiter. Smith is not good at that. He has bad ball handling skills and no cross over to speak of. What Smith can do is go from the free throw line and throw it down (however, Smith's small hands keep him from dunking as much as he could if he could palm the ball).

Marvin has handles. Marvin does have some dribble moves that seem to work for him. Does he need to improve those? Yes, but the skill-set is there.

In terms of the and 1 issue. Its useless if you can't hit your FTs, ala Smith right now.

Hence my evaluation is that Marvin is the better slasher than Smith. That might not fit your definition, which is fine, but I wanted to spell out my "logic".

[Vol4ever]

Where are you Diesel?????? This is not good news for your anti-marvin campaign.

[Diesel]

For yet another year, we play the let's make excuses for Marvin game. Why is it that nobody else has problems being what they are supposed to be but when it comes to Marvin, it's everybody's fault but his??

Marvin has to man up and let his play demand more touches. Sure stats will favor him on a % basis because Marvin plays on a team full of shooters and scorers. He is rarely guarded. When I watched the game last night, either Marvin was wide open or Brian Cook was on him.

But if Marvin played harder when we had JJ out there and if he were more aggressive then, he wouldn't have to wait for somebody else' benevolence.

[Traceman]

No. Marvin still can't finish inside. He always falls down if he so much as gets touched in the lane. When was the last time Marvin had an and1?

Smith is much better recently as a go to option, he just has to start making free throws. He will eventually as he has his entire career. I think it's just mental but he'll eventually get back on track.

I do agree that Marvin should get more shots though, but he just needs to be more aggressive. I'd just rather him get more touches and let JJ play off the ball a little more. JJ is still the #1 option, but should not the ONLY option as he has been this entire season.

I've seen Marvin get several 'and 1s." Marvin is a better finisher than you give him credit for. He has 14 "and 1s" on the season and that is just as many as JJ has.

Smoove is definitely our best "and 1" guy with 19 but Marvin's 14 "and 1s" make him no worse than an average finisher when compared to the rest of the league.

http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT17.HTM

Edited February 5, 2009 by Traceman

[High5]

I'd say it's about 75% Woodson being an offensive retard and 25% Marvin not being aggressive enough.

[exodus]

For yet another year, we play the let's make excuses for Marvin game. Why is it that nobody else has problems being what they are supposed to be but when it comes to Marvin, it's everybody's fault but his??

Marvin has to man up and let his play demand more touches. Sure stats will favor him on a % basis because Marvin plays on a team full of shooters and scorers. He is rarely guarded. When I watched the game last night, either Marvin was wide open or Brian Cook was on him.

But if Marvin played harder when we had JJ out there and if he were more aggressive then, he wouldn't have to wait for somebody else' benevolence.

First of all Brian Cook plays on the Heat. Secondly Marvin didn't get to the line 14 times by being left open all night.

[tonegully]

For yet another year, we play the let's make excuses for Marvin game. Why is it that nobody else has problems being what they are supposed to be but when it comes to Marvin, it's everybody's fault but his??

Marvin has to man up and let his play demand more touches. Sure stats will favor him on a % basis because Marvin plays on a team full of shooters and scorers. He is rarely guarded. When I watched the game last night, either Marvin was wide open or Brian Cook was on him.

But if Marvin played harder when we had JJ out there and if he were more aggressive then, he wouldn't have to wait for somebody else' benevolence.

B.S!!!. You sure you watched the game last night.

Marvin was very aggressive last night. I even pointed that out in the chat last night. That last 3 Bibby hit, was because of Marvin. Marvin went straight to the post and demanded the ball. Then kicked it out to Bibby for the 3.

Marv played excellent last night.

[AHF]

There are several variables at play.

1) Woodson has to design plays to match his skillset. I believe that this has been an issue from day one.

2) Marvin must improve his game and become more aggressive He's been doing that. Granted, I'd like to see him finish around the rim better. That said, he's improved his three point stroke, he gets to the line better than just about everyone on the team with the exception of Josh Smith. He's developed a little sweeping hook type shot.

3) The distributors on the team have to do a better job finding him. Again, point one comes into play with this one.

That is the order I rank these as well.

For Marvin to be a secondary scorer or to have a bigger role in the offense, that is primarily on Woodson and how he draws up the offense.

For Marvin to be a lead scorer, that is primarily on him to be more assertive. He should also be more aggressive regardless because it would help the team.

The distributors part is a small factor in my mind. That is really more of a by-product of offensive design more than our ballhandlers simply making bad passes or not seeing Marvin.

[thecampster]

That is the order I rank these as well.

For Marvin to be a secondary scorer or to have a bigger role in the offense, that is primarily on Woodson and how he draws up the offense.

For Marvin to be a lead scorer, that is primarily on him to be more assertive. He should also be more aggressive regardless because it would help the team.

The distributors part is a small factor in my mind. That is really more of a by-product of offensive design more than our ballhandlers simply making bad passes or not seeing Marvin.

Hey Dolfan let me tag on to your ordering. Let's pretend for a minute the NBA god's smiled on us and we got a new coach. I'll throw out Doug Collins name as an example (He's a bigger fan of big men score, small men score when the big men can't). If Doug Collins was our coach (or any bigs friendly coach) how would this affect Marvin's nightly stat line?

[Cwell]

First of all Brian Cook plays on the Heat. Secondly Marvin didn't get to the line 14 times by being left open all night.

Second of all Brian Cook plays for the Magic

[High5]

Diesel has never been one to check his facts. It's funny how often someone can be wrong without knowing it.

[AHF]

Hey Dolfan let me tag on to your ordering. Let's pretend for a minute the NBA god's smiled on us and we got a new coach. I'll throw out Doug Collins name as an example (He's a bigger fan of big men score, small men score when the big men can't). If Doug Collins was our coach (or any bigs friendly coach) how would this affect Marvin's nightly stat line?

I think any coach that came in and tried to install a system where our primary scoring options was Horford would be in trouble. Given the talent on our team, if you assume Josh Smith is a big then our big players in Horford, Smith and Z should not be the dominant scoring options.

Assuming that we shot the same volume of shots, I think a better offensive coach would take our shooting balance from:

JJ 18.6

Bibby 13.3

Smith 12.8

Marvin 9.9

Flip 8.7

Horford 8.1

to something more like:

JJ 15.5

Smith 13

Bibby 13

Marvin 12.5

Horford 10

Flip 7

Depending on how the efficiencies of additional/better shot selection panned out, you could refine things from there. This would definitely help JJ stay more efficient and prevent him from wearing down as much, IMO. By incorporating less isolation and more system into our offense, it would also make us tougher to defend down the stretch.

Edited February 5, 2009 by AHF

[exodus]

I hope the offense keeps playing well while JJ is out. It is pretty clear that JJ is dribbling and shooting too much. JJ is my man but i would like to see the ball in his hands less often.

[mrhonline]

Marvin's ability to get to the rim should be utilized in the 1st quarter...

^^^I keep saying that hoping Woody reads the board.