EXTEND WOODSON NOW

[AtLaS]

If you had told me before the season that we would be in 4th place in the east by the all star break I would have been ecstatic which is exactly where we are now.

Once again, the only excuse from the Woody apologists is this. Comparing our record as to what was predicted while holding all other things constant. That's just not an evaluation.

[AHF]

I disagree with you on this point though. They haven't quit on Woody, but he doesn't motivate them well. They don't come out of breaks with more energy than the other team. We are too often motivated by the scoreboard or another team's run. Its not that they want Woody fired like the Knicks did with LB, its just that Woody doesn't know how to push their buttons.

I may be damning with faint praise here. I don't think Woodson is a standout motivator either. I just think that a lot of coaches would have totally lost the team after what the organization has been through under his time as coach. The fact that he hasn't totally lost them is one of the big positives of his coaching time in Atlanta for me. That doesn't mean I think Woodson has been a standout at pushing the right buttons.

[AHF]

Once again, the only excuse from the Woody apologists is this. Comparing our record as to what was predicted while holding all other things constant. That's just not an evaluation.

Taking into account the way things have changed, I still think we are about on track for what we should be doing this year in terms of our record. This is Woodson's best performance by far in getting the team to live up to its potential for record.

[Admin]

I know you have credibility when it comes to discussing Woody and like you, I disagree with Dol but I think hating on one of the most positive contributors to this board just because you disagree with him is retarded.

I disagree with you on this point though. They haven't quit on Woody, but he doesn't motivate them well. They don't come out of breaks with more energy than the other team. We are too often motivated by the scoreboard or another team's run. Its not that they want Woody fired like the Knicks did with LB, its just that Woody doesn't know how to push their buttons.

This is to everyone

I don't try to be mr. super positive guy and I don't blindly give praise to our players/coaches, I just like to point out their positive attributes as I see them (as AHF mentioned) and if that makes me a troll or unbearable to many of you then I'm sorry but you're going to have to deal with it. There are many posters on here that I truly respect and enjoy reading their points of view (Mrhonline, AHF, Crimedog, Traceman, Exodus, Diesel, Northcyde, Hawkfanatic, Bronnt, Beeswatter, etc.) even though I know that they'll often disagree with me but they will take the time to explain their position and more often than you know they will make me reconsider my position. Then there are a large number of you who simply pick up your pitch fork and torch and blindly follow the mob on their agenda at the time and as unbearable as I am to you, that's how unbearable these guys are to me. No thought, no detail put into their posts, just blind hate.

To crimedog

Call it lack of energy, lack of motivation, lack of focus, etc. but I think we're all in agreement on this one that our slow starts to the games are becoming a big problem. It seems like a problem that we created for ourselves because we know that we're talented enough to play with any team in the league and it's almost like they need the challenge of being behind early to make them play with intensity for the remainder of the game. That is a sure fire way to fail in the long run and leads to us rarely being able to rest our starters because even though we'll outscore the other team by a good margin in the 2-4 quarters of these games we're only making up the deficit and not actually putting them away.

[Dsinner]

Wow if admitting that we'd be better off with a better coach makes me a troll then I guess I can't win either way. I mean God forbid that for every 99 negative "FIRE WOODY" posts there should be 1 that talks about his positives and mockingly talks about extending him.

So do you post that one post simply to even things out or do you truly believe it? If you don't believe it you're trolling (posting simply for a reaction). If you're truly a Hawks fan and you admit a new coach would make us better, how can you possibly want to keep Woody?

[Dsinner]

The guy is speaking his mind and doesn't hesitate to lay blame on Woodson where warranted (in his opinion) or to give Woodson credit for what is warranted (in his opinion). That is totally legit.

Actually read his above post where he admits he posted it simply to play devil's advocate. That is not "in his opinion" and not "legit". When you post something you don't even believe simply to get a reaction that is the classic definition of trolling.

[AHF]

So do you post that one post simply to even things out or do you truly believe it? If you don't believe it you're trolling (posting simply for a reaction). If you're truly a Hawks fan and you admit a new coach would make us better, how can you possibly want to keep Woody?

This is not a hard logic train to follow.

Dolfan says: Having a better coach for the Hawks would make the Hawks better.

He did not say: Any coach would be better than Woodson.

Dolfan has said that there are better coaches than Woody in the NBA and worse ones.

Hence, you can logically infer from Dolfan's statements that:

(a) we would be better with a better coach;

(b) we would be roughly the same with roughly the same level coach;

(c.) we would be worse with a worse coach.

Edit:

Dolfan can correct me if I am wrong, but I will bet anything that he truly believes that this team would be better with, say, Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich or Jerry Sloan, etc. coaching the team. Hence, his statement is 100% legit.

Edited February 11, 2009 by AHF

[Dsinner]

This is to everyone

Then there are a large number of you who simply pick up your pitch fork and torch and blindly follow the mob on their agenda at the time and as unbearable as I am to you, that's how unbearable these guys are to me. No thought, no detail put into their posts, just blind hate.

Save the drama. You started a thread defending Woody for the sole reason of getting crap started. You admit we'd be better without him (which is CLEARLY the case) so why even start a thread like that to begin with? I guess negative "blind hate" traffic on your site is better than no traffic. Sorry but blind homerisim, especially fake blind homerisim, makes me nauseas. Then you follow it up with a post calling people "unbearable, thoughtless, full of blind hate". I thought name calling was a no-no? Perhaps as "the" admin you're getting way to involved into these discussions? Just a thought.

[Dsinner]

This is not a hard logic train to follow.

Dolfan says: Having a better coach for the Hawks would make the Hawks better.

He did not say: Any coach would be better than Woodson.

Dolfan has said that there are better coaches than Woody in the NBA and worse ones.

Hence, you can logically infer from Dolfan's statements that:

(a) we would be better with a better coach;

(b) we would be roughly the same with roughly the same level coach;

(c.) we would be worse with a worse coach.

Edit:

Dolfan can correct me if I am wrong, but I will bet anything that he truly believes that this team would be better with, say, Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich or Jerry Sloan, etc. coaching the team. Hence, his statement is 100% legit.

Don't remember pulling your chain but Dolf's logic is pretty clear (to those of us not into the brown nosing thing). He admitted he post pro-Woody threads simply to go against the grain. Not because he believes it.

Hence, you can logically infer from Dolfan's statments that:

(well, since this train is so easy to follow I'll let you insert your own logic)

[AtLaS]

Taking into account the way things have changed, I still think we are about on track for what we should be doing this year in terms of our record. This is Woodson's best performance by far in getting the team to live up to its potential for record.

I agree that this is Woodsons' best performance in terms of the teams record.

But, I think we are better than our record. If we aren't playing to our strengths, constantly making the same mistakes, constantly getting off to slow starts, and constantly running the Go-Joe offense, how are we where we are supposed to be?

This is why we are an extremely inconsistent team, if Joe is off, the Go-Joe offense doesn't work. We don't have ways to get easy baskets (well, we do, but we don't run the PnR) and that's why we're so inconsistent. With a coach that recognizes the strengths of this team and utilizes them, we could be a lot better.

Edited February 11, 2009 by AtLaS

[AtLaS]

Save the drama. You started a thread defending Woody for the sole reason of getting crap started. You admit we'd be better without him (which is CLEARLY the case) so why even start a thread like that to begin with? I guess negative "blind hate" traffic on your site is better than no traffic. Sorry but blind homerisim, especially fake blind homerisim, makes me nauseas. Then you follow it up with a post calling people "unbearable, thoughtless, full of blind hate". I thought name calling was a no-no? Perhaps as "the" admin you're getting way to involved into these discussions? Just a thought.

For the record, I don't think Dolfan is a blind Woodson homer, because he does admit his faults and admits there are lots of better coaches in the NBA.

I just don't understand how he can look at the flaws and not realize that this team isn't playing to it's potential.

[Swish]

OK, look. I think we can all agree that Woodson is doing the best coaching of his career, for which I think we can give him props. Is he getting 100% from the team? Probably not. So we can rag on him for that, too. Some of that may be his fault, some of it not. We're not in the locker room. I think Woody could squeeze more out of the team, sure, like showing up for games against the Clippers, but I'm going to give him his due when we beat the Cavs/Hornets/etc.

Point being, don't get on to a guy for being positive, because there actually is something to be positive about this year.

[crimedog]

Call it lack of energy, lack of motivation, lack of focus, etc. but I think we're all in agreement on this one that our slow starts to the games are becoming a big problem. It seems like a problem that we created for ourselves because we know that we're talented enough to play with any team in the league and it's almost like they need the challenge of being behind early to make them play with intensity for the remainder of the game. That is a sure fire way to fail in the long run and leads to us rarely being able to rest our starters because even though we'll outscore the other team by a good margin in the 2-4 quarters of these games we're only making up the deficit and not actually putting them away.

I agree. I also think that its part of coaching to convince your guys that you are better off putting guys away early. They shouldn't need the scoreboard as motivation. These aren't lazy guys either, they aren't guys who are just in it for the paycheck. Its mystifying why it happens and at some point you have to wonder whether you can place blame on the one guy who'se job description actually includes motivating.

ADDENDUM: When I referred to you as "one of the most positive contributors" I didn't mean you were always positive, but that your contributions to the board were positive, as in added to it.

Edited February 11, 2009 by crimedog

[Admin]

So do you post that one post simply to even things out or do you truly believe it? If you don't believe it you're trolling (posting simply for a reaction). If you're truly a Hawks fan and you admit a new coach would make us better, how can you possibly want to keep Woody?

I'm amazed that you'd start that question with "If you're truly a Hawks fan". Are you honestly not sure as to whether I'm a Hawks fan or not?

As to the question about whether we should keep Woody or admitting a new coach would make us better, why can't I have both? Hell I think Kobe would make us better but I see value in Joe Johnson and believe we should keep him unless we could get Kobe for him. The same with Woody, I know he has his flaws and I know there are better coaches than him, but some of you are so dead set on firing him that you don't consider what the options for replacing him are, or are unrealistic about those options. I hear constant cries for firing Woody after every loss and I truly wonder how many of you actually consider the reality of firing Woody during the season and what type of effect that would have on the team. I don't believe the time to fire a coach is during the season unless you are horribly underachieving and have a better option already on the staff and neither is the case with us. It can be argued that we're underachieving and it's probably true that we are, however I'd strongly argue the degree of our underachievement with some of you who seem to think that it's such a large degree that Woody should be fired especially when you consider that we don't have a better option on our bench and there's little chance that bringing in someone from outside of this organization in the middle of the season will make us better this year.

Actually read his above post where he admits he posted it simply to play devil's advocate. That is not "in his opinion" and not "legit". When you post something you don't even believe simply to get a reaction that is the classic definition of trolling.

I never said that I posted it to balance things out or to play devil's advocate. Even when I'm being sarcastic I never post something just to get a reaction or just to play devil's advocate. I suggest that you try to make less assumptions because in this instance you really don't know what you're talking about.

[Admin]

This is not a hard logic train to follow.

Dolfan says: Having a better coach for the Hawks would make the Hawks better.

He did not say: Any coach would be better than Woodson.

Dolfan has said that there are better coaches than Woody in the NBA and worse ones.

Hence, you can logically infer from Dolfan's statements that:

(a) we would be better with a better coach;

(b) we would be roughly the same with roughly the same level coach;

(c.) we would be worse with a worse coach.

Edit:

Dolfan can correct me if I am wrong, but I will bet anything that he truly believes that this team would be better with, say, Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich or Jerry Sloan, etc. coaching the team. Hence, his statement is 100% legit.

You are absolutely 100% correct AHF and I've never had to personally explain that to you and apparently you've had no trouble in understanding my position. Why is it so difficult for others to grasp?

[Admin]

Save the drama. You started a thread defending Woody for the sole reason of getting crap started. You admit we'd be better without him (which is CLEARLY the case) so why even start a thread like that to begin with?

First, yes I started this thread to get a reaction. How is that different than the "FIRE WOODY NOW" thread? Second, I WOULD extend Woody if there wasn't a better coaching option available because I like how the team plays when we're healthy. Third, where did I admit that we'd be better without him? Finally, how is it CLEARLY the case?

I thought name calling was a no-no?

Where did I call anyone a name? What did I do in reaction to being called a troll? Did I ban anyone? Did I warn anyone? Did I suspend anyone? Did I retaliate and call anyone a name?

I guess negative "blind hate" traffic on your site is better than no traffic. Sorry but blind homerisim, especially fake blind homerisim, makes me nauseas. Then you follow it up with a post calling people "unbearable, thoughtless, full of blind hate". Perhaps as "the" admin you're getting way to involved into these discussions? Just a thought.

You are REALLY reaching.

[Diesel]

I am no Woodson fan but the team has never quit on him. They have put up some stinkers and not shown up some games but that is different than quitting on the coach.

I agree here. If they had quit on him, it would be long-lasting. Like what happened in Minnesota before McHale took over. Moreover, we're not veteran enough and not unhungry enough to quit.

[Admin]

Don't remember pulling your chain but Dolf's logic is pretty clear (to those of us not into the brown nosing thing). He admitted he post pro-Woody threads simply to go against the grain. Not because he believes it.

Hence, you can logically infer from Dolfan's statments that:

(well, since this train is so easy to follow I'll let you insert your own logic)

I've made this point in a previous reply but you should REALLY stop making assumptions and trying to pass them off as facts.

And calling AHF a brown noser? Really?

[Diesel]

I may be damning with faint praise here. I don't think Woodson is a standout motivator either. I just think that a lot of coaches would have totally lost the team after what the organization has been through under his time as coach. The fact that he hasn't totally lost them is one of the big positives of his coaching time in Atlanta for me. That doesn't mean I think Woodson has been a standout at pushing the right buttons.

If we were to trade Woody for Doug Collins for 2 weeks, what would our team be?

[Diesel]

I agree. I also think that its part of coaching to convince your guys that you are better off putting guys away early. They shouldn't need the scoreboard as motivation. These aren't lazy guys either, they aren't guys who are just in it for the paycheck. Its mystifying why it happens and at some point you have to wonder whether you can place blame on the one guy who'se job description actually includes motivating.

ADDENDUM: When I referred to you as "one of the most positive contributors" I didn't mean you were always positive, but that your contributions to the board were positive, as in added to it.

You make it seem like it's easy to "put a team away early".

It's rare that a team can impose that kind of will on another team. The requirement is that the other team quits and you play nonstop. Even the best of teams have let other teams back in it.

I think that right now, our team is at a good point. A point where they are confident enough to hold a lead. For a young team, that's pretty good.