Conley/Stuckey vs Horford/Law

[exodus]

I wanted Horford and Law on draft day.

I am still very happy with Horford but a little dissapointed in Law (mainly due to playing time ). However, if Law were put in the same situation losing situation in Memphis that Conley is in I believe Law would have more success since young players are let loose to develop, at the expense of winning, with no veterans taking their playing time. That is comparing the #4 and #11 pick.

In hindsight I wish we would have taken Stuckey over Law. Who wouldn't ? That being said, I have still not given up on Law.

Things could be worse though. We could have taken Critt at #11 and Yi at at #3. There was a sizeable camp for those 2 players as well.

That is actually what i was afraid of on draft day. When the Hawks went Horford/Law i was relieved that BK didn't completely blow it again.

[tbhawksfan]

CBAreject; it's a cultural thing. It's possible to discuss a stupid topic intelligently. It's possible to discuss an intelligent topic stupidly. For some people (percentages depending on culture and education), an intelligent conversation about anything is an impossibility.

More people should try to discuss more intelligent topics more intelligently.

[crimedog]

I definitely wanted Conley at 3 (whoops). My uninformed understanding is that he has been underwhelming this season at best. He is still very young so maybe he gets it in time, but I am not holding out much hope - though I think his chances may be better then Laws.

Check the stats since the coaching change. He's been very good.

Again, Horford has been a big help short term so I won't second guess it too much but Conley has definitely shown himself to be a player recently. Interestingly enough, his OSU running mate is turning some heads too.

[cowa]

I was actually for a Horford/Crittendon, largely because I know BK and Woody LOVE those big PG's. I just thought Crit would fit in better with the Hawks philosophy at that time. In hindsight, I don't think we should have gone that way at all, and should have taken another wing who might get some time (T. Young, J. Wright & Thornton all were taken directly after Law) and pick up a back-up PG through free agency. As long as Woody won't employ a pick and roll offense, these PG's coming out of college are going to have a hard time in Atlanta.

[coachx]

I was actually for a Horford/Crittendon, largely because I know BK and Woody LOVE those big PG's. I just thought Crit would fit in better with the Hawks philosophy at that time. In hindsight, I don't think we should have gone that way at all, and should have taken another wing who might get some time (T. Young, J. Wright & Thornton all were taken directly after Law) and pick up a back-up PG through free agency. As long as Woody won't employ a pick and roll offense, these PG's coming out of college are going to have a hard time in Atlanta.

Had we known Bibby would be coming 1/2 way through the season and Chillz would bolt for Greece, then the Young or Thorton route would have been the way to go. That is just too much to for shadow considering our PGs at the time were AJ and Lue. Plus rookie wings would have gotten little, if any, playing time last year with Chillz on the team.

Mo Evans is doing the best he can at 6'5'' but we see taller SF attack him quite often. It was Prince calling for iso's on him last night. I even remember Jefferies of the Knicks calling for iso's vs. Evans. Evans is just not long enough to guard these taller SFs. I'm not sure Thorton or Young are long enough either but they are much more gifted offensively.

In this years draft PLEASE pick the best player available reguardless of position. We need depth ! If Collison and Lawson are gone don't reach for a PG. Please don't reach for a stiff just b/c he is 7 foot. That is the only thing Sund has been guilty of in the past. Reaching for needs in the draft while turning down good talent.

[coachx]

As long as Woody won't employ a pick and roll offense, these PG's coming out of college are going to have a hard time in Atlanta.

Law actully is horrible at running the pick and roll. He alwayse makes his move before the BIG can get still and make the pick. Law makes his move too early, while the big is moving, and it ALWAYSE results in a foul on our BIG (normally Horford or ZaZa). Not only is that a turnover, it also gets our BIGs in foul trouble which is a problem due to our depth at Center.

That is either bad coaching or Law not listening. I think it is more on Law b/c that is something your taught in HS. Wait for the big to be still before the guard makes their move.

I love Law. I have been a fan of his since college but I'm just saying the truth here. This is something he needs to fix pronto !

Edited February 12, 2009 by coachx

[mattlanta]

I'd keep Horford over any of those guys. On draft day, I was hoping we would be able to land Conley then Hawes. But my second best scenario was Horford/Law, which actually happened so I was very happy. I'm disappointed in how Law has panned out, but it's a little early seeing that he rarely gets PT. I didn't think Stuckey would be this good.

[AtLaS]

We have the same needs now that we had before we drafted Horford. We need inside scoring and someone who can defend big post players. Horford can do neither. he is barely a speed bump to Dwight Howard who we will have to deal with for years. He can't score on Howard either.

We could get Horfords 10/8 from a veteran big like Joe Smith.

Bibby has been a good short term rental but he is hardly a long term answer at the point.

Horford would have much better numbers if we ran the PnR more often, you know, like if we actually installed an offense. As our current offense stands, if you can't create your own shot very well or shoot threes than you aren't going to score as much. Horford is good at neither.

I really think he could be putting up Milsap numbers if given the opportunity to run in an offense like that. Milsap is smaller and doesn't have a post game to speak of either, but he has a good midrange jumper and they run the PnR with him.

Back to the topic, I wanted Horford and was stuck (no pun) between Law/Critt. Wasn't a big Stuckey fan because I hadn't seen much of him, he played at a small school and didn't appear to be a PG.

[TheTrueSiete]

Stuckey would be stuck on the bench here just like Acie. So yea Horford/Acie >>>>>>>>>> Conley/Stuckey.

Hit the nail on the head...

7

[exodus]

Horford would have much better numbers if we ran the PnR more often, you know, like if we actually installed an offense. As our current offense stands, if you can't create your own shot very well or shoot threes than you aren't going to score as much. Horford is good at neither.

I agree that we should run the pick and roll more. But at some point Horford needs to man up and try to take it too guys who aren't playing him at all. When he is 15-18 feet from the rim and he has a big, slow stiff guarding him he needs to grow a pair and make something happen.

Marvin has gotten a ton of criticism for being too passive on offense but he hasn't been as timid as Horford since his rookie year. horford is by far the most timid player on offense among our rotation players but he gets a free pass.

[AHF]

It is ironic that with 5 years to install a system that our two most system dependent, team oriented players are the ones who are most hurt by the offense we run (Marvin and Horford). Our current offensive philosophy is perfect for players like Flip Murray. It will be interesting to see if that is reflected in the offers Flip receives after this season by teams that do run more structured offenses.

[Admin]

I agree that we should run the pick and roll more. But at some point Horford needs to man up and try to take it too guys who aren't playing him at all. When he is 15-18 feet from the rim and he has a big, slow stiff guarding him he needs to grow a pair and make something happen.

Marvin has gotten a ton of criticism for being too passive on offense but he hasn't been as timid as Horford since his rookie year. horford is by far the most timid player on offense among our rotation players but he gets a free pass.

Horford grew a pair last night and went up to thrown down a nasty dunk on Max ... but that didn't work out so well! Man I wish we had that kid!!

I don't think Horford is any more timid than I've ever thought Marvin was. I just don't think he's allowed to be more than the 5th option by "design" and has probably shrunken into that role the same way that Marvin used to (still does sometimes). Hell last year in that Boston series he was practically demanding the ball on the low block when he was posted up and even earlier this year he was doing it but it doesn't happen much anymore.

[exodus]

Horford grew a pair last night and went up to thrown down a nasty dunk on Max ... but that didn't work out so well! Man I wish we had that kid!!

I don't think Horford is any more timid than I've ever thought Marvin was. I just don't think he's allowed to be more than the 5th option by "design" and has probably shrunken into that role the same way that Marvin used to (still does sometimes). Hell last year in that Boston series he was practically demanding the ball on the low block when he was posted up and even earlier this year he was doing it but it doesn't happen much anymore.

it has nothing to do with what he is "allowed" to do. Woody obviously believes in guys going 1 on 1. That is his whole offense pretty much.

Smith and Marvin are playing in the same offense and they take guys off the dribble all the time, and they are going up against much tougher defenders than Horford. Horford is just being a pansy.

Other than Amare Horford is probably quicker than everyone he faces. There is no excuse for him not trying to take advantage of his speed against much slower players. He might as well be wearing a skirt when the Hawks are on offense.

[Admin]

it has nothing to do with what he is "allowed" to do. Woody obviously believes in guys going 1 on 1. That is his whole offense pretty much.

Smith and Marvin are playing in the same offense and they take guys off the dribble all the time, and they are going up against much tougher defenders than Horford. Horford is just being a pansy.

Other than Amare Horford is probably quicker than everyone he faces. There is no excuse for him not trying to take advantage of his speed against much slower players. He might as well be wearing a skirt when the Hawks are on offense.

Man I swear you deal with absolutes more than any person I've ever seen.

To you the only possibility is that Horford is being a pansy?

There's no chance that he knows his limitations at this point in his career and he's trying to avoid turning the ball over or that he has a different role in the offense which is to try and get the ball to other 4 guys who are better shooters? There's no chance that our offensive system is so screwed up that he's just doing what he's been told to do?

Does the same apply to Marvin when he's standing around watching Joe, Bibby, and Smoove control/shoot the ball? Is Marvin being a pansy then?

And what's with the pansy/skirt references?

[Packfill]

Man I swear you deal with absolutes more than any person I've ever seen.

To you the only possibility is that Horford is being a pansy?

There's no chance that he knows his limitations at this point in his career and he's trying to avoid turning the ball over or that he has a different role in the offense which is to try and get the ball to other 4 guys who are better shooters? There's no chance that our offensive system is so screwed up that he's just doing what he's been told to do?

Does the same apply to Marvin when he's standing around watching Joe, Bibby, and Smoove control/shoot the ball? Is Marvin being a pansy then?

And what's with the pansy/skirt references?

I think the take away is that Marvin and Al are good complementary players at this point in their careers. If they want to be more then that, at some point they will need to take matters into their own hands.

[exodus]

Man I swear you deal with absolutes more than any person I've ever seen.

To you the only possibility is that Horford is being a pansy?

There's no chance that he knows his limitations at this point in his career and he's trying to avoid turning the ball over or that he has a different role in the offense which is to try and get the ball to other 4 guys who are better shooters? There's no chance that our offensive system is so screwed up that he's just doing what he's been told to do?

Does the same apply to Marvin when he's standing around watching Joe, Bibby, and Smoove control/shoot the ball? Is Marvin being a pansy then?

And what's with the pansy/skirt references?

Horford has the highest shooting percentage of all the regulars by a wide margin. He is a far better midrange shooter than Smith. It isn't even close. Smith and JJ are forcing up a lot of tough, contested shots while Horford is passing up easy opportunities to score against weak defenders that are playing way off him.

He doesn't take more shots because he is too timid to do it. Woody has never shown any inclination to stop anyone from going 1 on 1.

Marvin has gotten dogged here for years for being too timid but Horford is getting a free pass even though he is far more timid than Marvin. if Marvin is left wide open on the perimeter he will take the shot. If he has an opporunity to drive he will drive. Horford does neither.

[Admin]

I think the take away is that Marvin and Al are good complementary players at this point in their careers. If they want to be more then that, at some point they will need to take matters into their own hands.

I don't disagree that they both need to become bigger parts of the offense, I just don't trust that they are allowed the freedom to do so. From appearances it seems like Horford's role is to set picks and pass from the top of the key or slightly in to the shooters coming off of picks. I just have an extremely hard time believing that a guy who was demanding the ball against Perk/KG on the low block has all of the sudden become a "pansy", especially not when you consider how unorthodox our offense is.

[Admin]

Horford has the highest shooting percentage of all the regulars by a wide margin. He is a far better midrange shooter than Smith. It isn't even close. Smith and JJ are forcing up a lot of tough, contested shots while Horford is passing up easy opportunities to score against weak defenders that are playing way off him.

He doesn't take more shots because he is too timid to do it. Woody has never shown any inclination to stop anyone from going 1 on 1.

Marvin has gotten dogged here for years for being too timid but Horford is getting a free pass even though he is far more timid than Marvin.

And you don't think that there is any chance that Horford is playing the role he is asked to play? Considering that Woody has said that he doesn't play Acie because he doesn't play the way that he wants I can easily see Horford (and Marvin before him) playing the role that the coach asks him to so that he isn't punished for it like Acie and Zaza before him.

Woody has also never shown that he cares about a low post game.

It doesn't seem like Horford is getting a free pass since we're talking about it, does it?

[AtLaS]

I agree that we should run the pick and roll more. But at some point Horford needs to man up and try to take it too guys who aren't playing him at all. When he is 15-18 feet from the rim and he has a big, slow stiff guarding him he needs to grow a pair and make something happen.

Marvin has gotten a ton of criticism for being too passive on offense but he hasn't been as timid as Horford since his rookie year. horford is by far the most timid player on offense among our rotation players but he gets a free pass.

Horford's problem is that he tries to post up the bigger guys as opposed to facing them up and taking them off the dribble. He isn't timid at all with taking the hook (he's very average with this shot) or the turn around fade (which is rarely effective). Someone needs to teach him to face up rather than trying to post up these bigger guys. His entire life in basketball he's been able to post effectively and now that he's playing C in the NBA and is undersized he's still trying to do the same thing, albeit with much less effectiveness.

[exodus]

And you don't think that there is any chance that Horford is playing the role he is asked to play?

No chance at all.

I seriously doubt it has been Josh Smith's role to jack up 3s but that hasn't stopped him from doing it.

Considering that Woody has said that he doesn't play Acie because he doesn't play the way that he wants I can easily see Horford (and Marvin before him) playing the role that the coach asks him to so that he isn't punished for it like Acie and Zaza before him.

Horford and Marvin have had their minutes handed to them from day 1. Their situation has no relevance to Acie's. No matter how bad Horford plays he is a lock to get big minutes in the following game.

It doesn't seem like Horford is getting a free pass since we're talking about it, does it?

Comparing the criticism that Horford gets to the criticism Marvin has gotten is like comparing Shaq to Spud Webb in terms of size.