In retrospect

[Traceman]

I don't think he said AI needs to be a with a PG who can distribute. I think he was saying Melo needs to be with a PG who can distribute.

Ah, I think you're right. My bad. Still, I think the only time AI is a better fit than Bibby is when you don't have any other guys who are capable of scoring on a regular basis. On AI's most successful team, he averaged 31.1, Deke averaged 11.7, McKie averaged 11.6, Snow averaged 9.8 and Ty Hill averaged 9.6. At his best, AI had to dominate the ball in order to be successful and he is simply not good enough to do that on a winning team anymore.

[Joker]

Ah, I think you're right. My bad. Still, I think the only time AI is a better fit than Bibby is when you don't have any other guys who are capable of scoring on a regular basis. On AI's most successful team, he averaged 31.1, Deke averaged 11.7, McKie averaged 11.6, Snow averaged 9.8 and Ty Hill averaged 9.6. At his best, AI had to dominate the ball in order to be successful and he is simply not good enough to do that on a winning team anymore.

At this point of his career, A.I. can not be the main guy unless your a 30 win team. He is like Bibby, but a worst PG and a much better player. He's not even that bad at PG, just isn't a facilitator. That Sixers team was good but they overachieved. It's hard to rate A.I. since he always been the only guy or played on teams that don't fit his style. He wasn't that bad in Denver but they weren't going to win any titles there either. If Atlanta can get a center, then this team is one piece away from contenders. We must keep our core together. That being J.J., Marvin, Josh Smith, and Horford. I believe he can't start for most playoff teams and help them outside of the Hawks. He needs to be on a team that has a leader (Horford), a #1 guy and a facilitator (J.J.) and a good post defense (??? we need a starting quality center). He can help us contend for the Eastern Conference and maybe the NBA championship. He has at least four good years left in him in the right system.

Edited February 25, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[AHF]

It's hard to rate A.I. since he always been the only guy or played on teams that don't fit his style.

I think his style is a team where he is the only guy. His usage rate makes it difficult to work him in with other successful scorers and playmakers.

[Traceman]

I think his style is a team where he is the only guy. His usage rate makes it difficult to work him in with other successful scorers and playmakers.

That is EXACTLY right. Good players are no longer as effective when playing with AI and it is NOT the system. It is AI's style not the system that doesn't work.

[Joker]

I think his style is a team where he is the only guy. His usage rate makes it difficult to work him in with other successful scorers and playmakers.

That's hard to say because of the teams he played for. Plus he has changed his game since Philly and is really trying to play to what the Coach Curry style in Detroit. It was known Melo needs to be setup before A.I. It was known that leadership is needed in Detroit so why bring A.I. in. Watch him play for Detroit, he really fits into what our PG's do. If this was Philly A.I. then I don't want him but he's a different player. I really see this working for the Hawks. I'm not even a fan of A.I. but I could really this working for both parties.

[AHF]

That's hard to say because of the teams he played for. Plus he has changed his game since Philly and is really trying to play to what the Coach Curry style in Detroit. It was known Melo needs to be setup before A.I. It was known that leadership is needed in Detroit so why bring A.I. in. Watch him play for Detroit, he really fits into what our PG's do. If this was Philly A.I. then I don't want him but he's a different player. I really see this working for the Hawks. I'm not even a fan of A.I. but I could really this working for both parties.

If AI could play the point, he wouldn't be destroying Rip Hamilton's career, IMO.

Billups had a 20% usage rate. AI stepping into that role has a 26% usage rate but a 23% assist percentage compared to a 33% rate for Billups.

He really isn't stepping into Billup's role in the Piston's system, IMO. He is doing some kind of blended version of AI trying to work himself into a highly successful, organized system and it is not working out at all. Not a surprise given that AI isn't one who has ever been able to let his talent blossom while incorporating himself into a system more complicated than "give AI the ball and clear out."

[Joker]

If AI could play the point, he wouldn't be destroying Rip Hamilton's career, IMO.

Billups had a 20% usage rate. AI stepping into that role has a 26% usage rate but a 23% assist percentage compared to a 33% rate for Billups.

He really isn't stepping into Billup's role in the Piston's system, IMO. He is doing some kind of blended version of AI trying to work himself into a highly successful, organized system and it is not working out at all. Not a surprise given that AI isn't one who has ever been able to let his talent blossom while incorporating himself into a system more complicated than "give AI the ball and clear out."

We both agree that he isn't made for the role in Det. I disagree with killing Rip, Rip also BS after the trade and is pi**ing the season away. Dumars knew what he was doing. This basically was a rebuilding ploy without losing money with that trade. He made a great trade in that sense. He wants to rebuild and got a marketing coup like A.I. for a year as well as trading a player you wanted to trade for rebuilding purposes. Your killing A.I. without seeing it from both angles. I'm listening to you, but you aren't doing the same.

I see your points on that A.I. hasn't been around a team that doesn't fit his style. Steve Nash was good in Dallas but is great in Phoenix. I feel that A.I. was good in Denver, but solid in Detroit and could be great in Atlanta with the role of our PG's. That's why Flip can play PG in our system but not in any others.

Edited February 26, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[AHF]

We both agree that he isn't made for the role in Det. I disagree with killing Rip, Rip also BS after the trade and is pi**ing the season away. Dumars knew what he was doing. This basically was a rebuilding ploy without losing money with that trade. He made a great trade in that sense. He wants to rebuild and got a marketing coup like A.I. for a year as well as trading a player you wanted to trade for rebuilding purposes. Your killing A.I. without seeing it from both angles. I'm listening to you, but you aren't doing the same.

I see your points on that A.I. hasn't been around a team that doesn't fit his style. Steve Nash was good in Dallas but is great in Phoenix. I feel that A.I. was good in Denver, but solid in Detroit and could be great in Atlanta with the role of our PG's. That's why Flip can play PG in our system but not in any others.

I totally hear what you are saying about Detroit making the move for cap purposes. I agree with that 100%.

I just disagree with you that there is any system out there where Iverson plays with offensively talented teammates as part of a system and adds a lot of value to the team. He needs the ball in his hands to be successful, IMO. I think AI in Atlanta means a guarantee of no motion or ball movement among the team and I want to see us go to less of any individual dominating the ball here and not to more ball domination.

I will say that under the Woody system or lack thereof, AI would be a fantastic 6th man for this team.

[Joker]

I totally hear what you are saying about Detroit making the move for cap purposes. I agree with that 100%.

I just disagree with you that there is any system out there where Iverson plays with offensively talented teammates as part of a system and adds a lot of value to the team. He needs the ball in his hands to be successful, IMO. I think AI in Atlanta means a guarantee of no motion or ball movement among the team and I want to see us go to less of any individual dominating the ball here and not to more ball domination.

I will say that under the Woody system or lack thereof, AI would be a fantastic 6th man for this team.

We agree to disagree, I can respect that. I feel otherwise with the way are sets are ran. Do you really believe that ball movement would stop. It didn't stop when he played in Denver. I don't see why it would in Atlanta. He doesn't set up players but no one on the Hawks ever does. In fact, that's not our IMO. He about as ball dominate as Bibby was in Sacramento in his last season with that team. As I mention earlier if this was A.I. in Philly I would agree, but A.I. is much more mature player now then he was in Philadelphia.

[AHF]

I agree he didn't kill ball movement in Denver. He was also a disappointment there which is why they were shopping him. He did not succeed without dominating the ball. IMO, he can take on a more limited roll and and won't be successful or he can dominate the ball and the team won't be successful at this point in his career. I have never thought AI was a guy I wanted to build around, though, so take that with a grain of salt. I don't think he would have ever seen the NBA finals if it wasn't for the historically weak shape of the East when he made his one deep playoff run.

In that sense, I think of AI as being somewhat like the modern day Pistol Pete. Both were fun to watch but good luck trying to win anything of significance by building around them.

[Joker]

I agree he didn't kill ball movement in Denver. He was also a disappointment there which is why they were shopping him. He did not succeed without dominating the ball. IMO, he can take on a more limited roll and and won't be successful or he can dominate the ball and the team won't be successful at this point in his career. I have never thought AI was a guy I wanted to build around, though, so take that with a grain of salt. I don't think he would have ever seen the NBA finals if it wasn't for the historically weak shape of the East when he made his one deep playoff run.

In that sense, I think of AI as being somewhat like the modern day Pistol Pete. Both were fun to watch but good luck trying to win anything of significance by building around them.

I agree with building my team around but I disagree with him only being successful in a limited role.

[AHF]

I will say that it wasn't a coincidence that both Stuckey and Hamilton played much better with Iverson out of the lineup against Orlando and Boston. Notice what else happened as well. Detroit, the team with a losing record with Iverson playing for them, beat playoff locks Orlando and Boston without Iverson. Too small a sample size to be statistically significant but this is not surprising at all to me.

[AHF]

Chris (Kalamazoo, Michigan): Would it kill you to say something about the Pistons?

SportsNation David Thorpe: it would not. Let's see-Denver is better without AI. Pistons too. Do the math.

[AHF]

Anybody still believe in Iverson's ability to play without dominating the ball and being the "man"?

[tomac]

Niether Bibby nor AI are true point guards. Bibby isn't a distributer either; he just doesn't dominate the ball. He also doesn't penetrate or play a lick of defense.

On the other hand, AI does dominate the ball (ala JJ), but he gets to the rim and plays pretty good defense. He was the league's top thief for a few years in his prime.

Personally, I thought that AI did a better job in Denver of not dominating the rock. In the beginning, he was even too passive. I remember seeing coach Karl urge him to take more shots. In the present situation, I would probably prefer AI at the point for the Hawks. We need a PG that can defend against the quicker pg's in the league. We also need a point guard who can still score when his jumper is off. Lastly, we need a point who can create offense on his own at the end of games without force feeding a double-teamed JJ.

The bottom line is this, Bibby gives you absolutely nothing when his jumper isn't falling. AI can contribute on both sides of the ball when his shot is off. You're not getting that many assists from either one, so IMO that makes AI the better player at this stage.

Edited April 2, 2009 by tomac

[mrhonline]

AI needs to go to Charlotte and play for Larry Brown. No joke.

They have the defensive players around him to make it work.

[DrReality]

His chances from here on out are going to be limited. It will take someone like Brown to get him back in the saddle.

[AHF]

Niether Bibby nor AI are true point guards. Bibby isn't a distributer either; he just doesn't dominate the ball. He also doesn't penetrate or play a lick of defense.

On the other hand, AI does dominate the ball (ala JJ), but he gets to the rim and plays pretty good defense. He was the league's top thief for a few years in his prime.

Personally, I thought that AI did a better job in Denver of not dominating the rock. In the beginning, he was even too passive. I remember seeing coach Karl urge him to take more shots. In the present situation, I would probably prefer AI at the point for the Hawks. We need a PG that can defend against the quicker pg's in the league. We also need a point guard who can still score when his jumper is off. Lastly, we need a point who can create offense on his own at the end of games without force feeding a double-teamed JJ.

The bottom line is this, Bibby gives you absolutely nothing when his jumper isn't falling. AI can contribute on both sides of the ball when his shot is off. You're not getting that many assists from either one, so IMO that makes AI the better player at this stage.

I don't think Iverson can positively contribute to any team anymore, personally. His defense is slightly better than Bibby's but he can't contribute as a defender anymore than Mo Evans can contribute offensively compared to Mario West. In his best days, Iverson was a mediocre defender who rang up a ton of steals by gambling defensively. Good for the stats, not the worst thing for the defense considering he was good at it, but not nearly as good as someone who just shuts down their man. Today, that steal rate has declined but Iverson's approach on defense is still the same.

Even offensively what does AI contribute anymore? His .504 true shooting percentage is way lower than Bibby's .546. In fact, Iverson's efficiency is so bad that he would be 10th on the Atlanta Hawks - meaning that you want 9 guys trying to score before Iverson. His efficiency in a limited role of late is even worse so you can't look at him as the next Flip. Flip is a much better Flip than Iverson on both ends of the court.

AI needs the ball in his hands too much to be effective on any team that has better players and he is unwilling to take a back seat to other players as his "I'll retire before I do the exact same thing that Rip Hamilton did" comments make clear.

I think AI would be a horrendous fit in Atlanta.

The idea of him playing for the Bobcats is problematic as well. What does Iverson give you at this point that DJ Augustin can't do better next year? Augustin scores with a .596 TS%. Why would you EVER want Iverson trying to score over Augustin? I do agree that for Iverson that would be a great move - he would have Okafor to cover for his defensive mistakes and a limited range of offensive talents to compete with for shots. He would also have a coach that knows what Iverson needs to be successful. All good for AI. However, I think Larry Brown is bright enough to know that what is good for Iverson is not good for the Bobcats.

[TheDude]

In Atlanta, we have no offensive system. It's just one on one. Look at Joe Johnson for instance. Dribble dribble dribble. I'm not dissing Joe, but it's a fact that we dont seem to have an offensive system. and guess who that is perfect for- allen iverson....

[AHF]

In Atlanta, we have no offensive system. It's just one on one. Look at Joe Johnson for instance. Dribble dribble dribble. I'm not dissing Joe, but it's a fact that we dont seem to have an offensive system. and guess who that is perfect for- allen iverson....

Do you think Iverson is OK in Woody's non-offensive system if he is the 3rd or 4th option on the team offensively? If not, I don't think that is a perfect match by any means. (I can't imagine why anyone would want AI to be even as high as the 4th option on the team in any event. His TS% is worse than all 5 of our starters plus most of our bench). If AI could mentally accept a role like Flips, I would agree with you.