Josh Smith the Worst FT% shooter in the league

[Admin]

I don't think tennis and free-throw shooting are even close to the same. Tennis is excruciatingly mental. Free-throws are just repetition, its not like Smoove is missing with the game on the line or anything like that. Its been a season long crapshow from the line. He is missing in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters pretty much evenly.

Do you really think it's just repetition? I don't believe that it's simply that, otherwise you could say the same for throwing darts, bowling, etc and yet the mental aspect of the sport plays a huge role in each.

[HawksBalla]

Whatever the cause, I have a feeling this is going to linger until he has had an offseason to clear his mind. Its too bad...I keep wondering why I rarely see Josh Smith at crunch time, then I remember how much of a liability he is at the ft line (or shooting a 15ft+ jumper, or trying to dribble through traffic, but I digress...)

[AtLaS]

Its not that he forgot how to shoot, its that if you don't keep yourself shooting a lot then you become worse. If you stop benching all of the sudden, it isn't that you forget how to bench as the reason why you cannot bench as much as before. If you don't keep working, you regress. Smoove isn't working.

Saying that he isn't working is just pure speculation and you really have no right to say that. I shot 93% on free throws throughout my last 2 seasons in high school yet at one point I went on a 2 month hiatus where I just couldn't make both free throws to save my life. I'd make them in practice, they felt the same every time but they just wouldn't fall. After a while it became mental and I couldn't stop thinking about it when I went to the line. Finally after a long period, I got over it.

If you think Free throws are nothing but pure repetition you are extremely mistaken.

[Kimsey]

It's clearly mental so he and Price have to find a way to work through it.

[Guest]

Saying that he isn't working is just pure speculation and you really have no right to say that.

Dude this is a message board, talking about "rights" for saying things is borderline crazy. Where do these rights come from? Am I in violation? What gives you the right to say I have no right to say what I did?

If you think Free throws are nothing but pure repetition you are extremely mistaken.

Karl Malone shot .481 and .598 from the stripe his first two years. Was it mental that he did this? He ended up as a career .742 shooter. I'll give you a hint what brought his free throw shooting up, hard work. He had little variance in free throw shooting after his 3rd year and it was always well documented that he had a ridiculous work ethic. When you have a massive drop-off in production, chances are more often than not it is a lack of repetition than some mental fluke.

[High5]

Ben Wallace will remain the worst FT shooter in the NBA until he retires. He has been in the NBA for 13 years, a full-time starter for 10 and his BEST percentage is 49%.

[AHF]

I don't think tennis and free-throw shooting are even close to the same. Tennis is excruciatingly mental. Free-throws are just repetition, its not like Smoove is missing with the game on the line or anything like that. Its been a season long crapshow from the line. He is missing in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters pretty much evenly.

How different is landing a serve in tennis from a FT, though? I think that is pretty analogous. Both are set plays that are practiced repeatedly. Both are about finding the right form and repeating that motion.

Average pro free throw shooter should land 75% of their FTs. Stud college tennis players should be able to land serves a slightly lower percentage of the time but fairly comparable. In an actual match, there are more elements going on in terms of positioning and strategy than with a free throw but it isn't a terrible analogy in my book.

[Guest]

How different is landing a serve in tennis from a FT, though? I think that is pretty analogous. Both are set plays that are practiced repeatedly. Both are about finding the right form and repeating that motion.

Your serve sets the tempo for the rest of the point. There becomes lots of over thinking on where to place the ball, trying to get extra juice on it, and so on and so forth. A free throw is a yes or no outcome, you can also only place a free throw in one area for it to be successful (the basket). In tennis, if you continue to go to one's backhand on a serve then your opponent will read this and attack. You need to mix it up at an effective ratio and randomize so that you can remain effective.

Landing a serve in tennis is slightly less thinking than the pitcher v. batter. For a free throw, you don't have to think. The only thing you have to think about is whether or not you want to bank it (which 0 do) or just try and swish it. A free throw is very simple, the only time that there is a strategy to a free throw is if you need to intentionally miss it. Other than that rare instance, there is no other outcome in a free throw which is more desirable than just making it.

[AtLaS]

Dude this is a message board, talking about "rights" for saying things is borderline crazy. Where do these rights come from? Am I in violation? What gives you the right to say I have no right to say what I did?

Because you have absolutely no proof that he isn't working on his free throws, yet you say your words as if they are fact.

Karl Malone shot .481 and .598 from the stripe his first two years. Was it mental that he did this? He ended up as a career .742 shooter. I'll give you a hint what brought his free throw shooting up, hard work. He had little variance in free throw shooting after his 3rd year and it was always well documented that he had a ridiculous work ethic.

Sure, one example of an NBA player who improved his free throw shooting certainly applies to every player. Let's ignore the countless examples of others who didn't.

When you have a massive drop-off in production, chances are more often than not it is a lack of repetition than some mental fluke.

Actually it's the opposite. People don't just forget how to shoot free throws by THAT much unless they don't touch a basketball for over a year or something, and we know that isn't true. We can assume the Hawks take at LEAST 50 free throws apiece during the mandatory practice every day (probably more), it's just not plausible to be anything other than mental.

Players are taught to shoot a free throw with the same routine on EVERY free throw to build confidence and comfort when at the line. In that case it's much more likely to be mental if they suddenly start missing. Regardless, I've been there before and I know what it's like. We even have a direct quote from Josh saying it's mental. Yet, you ignore it.

[Guest]

Because you have absolutely no proof that he isn't working on his free throws, yet you say your words as if they are fact.

Are you referring to my first post where I said:

My guess is Smoove got his payday and is slacking off.

So are you saying I am guilty of saying that my guess is a fact? I don't understand, are you saying that you have more knowledge of what my guess as to why he is regressing as a free throw shooter is? Then please tell me that truth, what is my guess?

Sure, one example of an NBA player who improved his free throw shooting certainly applies to every player. Let's ignore the countless examples of others who didn't.

You haven't named a single one. You just sent out some general response without anything to back it up.

Actually it's the opposite. People don't just forget how to shoot free throws by THAT much unless they don't touch a basketball for over a year or something, and we know that isn't true. We can assume the Hawks take at LEAST 50 free throws apiece during the mandatory practice every day (probably more), it's just not plausible to be anything other than mental.

Hahaha, so when you say this its all true? But when I say that I have a guess at the reason behind him struggling you are telling me that I am wrong at what my guess is?

Players are taught to shoot a free throw with the same routine on EVERY free throw to build confidence and comfort when at the line. In that case it's much more likely to be mental if they suddenly start missing. Regardless, I've been there before and I know what it's like. We even have a direct quote from Josh saying it's mental. Yet, you ignore it.

When you stop practicing as much as you were, you begin to lose form and just simply get out of rhythm. While it may feel mental, in reality its a lack of practice. Why on earth would we have a quote from Smoove saying that he isn't practicing as much? He would never admit to it and just brush it off as "mental". I am not ignoring he has a quote saying its mental, I am just not so simple minded to believe it and move on.

[AtLaS]

Are you referring to my first post where I said:

So are you saying I am guilty of saying that my guess is a fact? I don't understand, are you saying that you have more knowledge of what my guess as to why he is regressing as a free throw shooter is? Then please tell me that truth, what is my guess?

OK let's ignore every other statement of yours in those responses like...

"Free throw shooting is all about the amount of time you put into practicing your free throws. "

"he was about average and now he is the worst in the league. Laziness. "

"If you don't keep working, you regress. Smoove isn't working."

One of your key responses in your reply to mine is..

Its not that he forgot how to shoot, its that if you don't keep yourself shooting a lot then you become worse. If you stop benching all of the sudden, it isn't that you forget how to bench as the reason why you cannot bench as much as before.

This is a horrible analogy because in order for your bench to significantly drop, you would have to keep out of the gym for a WHILE. Are you saying Smith has gone months at a time without attempting a free throw?

You think the players don't shoot free throws in practice every day? In order to become a SIGNIFICANTLY worse free throw shooter without it being mental, he would literally have to not touch a basketball for a year. If you've ever shot free throws and played basketball almost every day for years at a time, especially with an organized team where practice is required, this is an easily understandable statement.

You haven't named a single one. You just sent out some general response without anything to back it up.

I shouldn't have to. It's common knowledge that most players aren't going to be able to improve their career FT% by 26% after their first season.

The reason players shoot low FT percentages is MUCH MORE than mere repetition (although repetition is obviously a factor), I honestly don't see how you could dispute that.

When you stop practicing as much as you were, you begin to lose form and just simply get out of rhythm. While it may feel mental, in reality its a lack of practice.

Yeah if you stop playing for a year. Have you ever played basketball at an above rec level? I'm not trying to sound like an *ss, but this statement is just extremely naive.

Lose FORM? In order to lose form you would have to avoid a basketball for over a year, literally. When you play every day, and practice during others it's just not possible for losing FORM to happen. Saying someone is going to lose his form and rhythm while playing every day and shooting 50+ free throws per practice is just laughable.

I agree that whatever he is doing in regards to free throws, he needs to work even harder, but your justification makes no sense.

[AtLaS]

Also, I forgot to respond to this one earlier.

Free throw shooting is all about the amount of time you put into practicing your free throws. Its not like you are born with the ability to hit 90% like some players are born with the ability to jump 40 inches.

Actually you are completely wrong. I practiced free throws as little as anybody on the team yet I was the best free throw shooter. I never understood how people could struggle so mightily. I never put in all the time in the world to become a great FT shooter, yet at one point I made 29 in a row.

From the other side, many of the bad FT shooters on my team with help from the coaches would stay after practice and shoot 100+ more free throws PER DAY and still couldn't drastically improve.

Seriously, making naive statements like these lead me to believe you've never played much organized basketball.

[Popeye]

I think Smoove worked too hard on the offensive end during the offseason.. He focused on his footwork and post moves..... Now he is trying to show off his new moves while not playing high energy defense like he used to (1.7 bpg), shooting ft's worse than ever (56%) while spending too much energy at offensive end... Trust me, banging inside to get a shot off takes a lot of energy from you...

On a positive side, Smoove improved his back to back game and is shooting career high (48%) from the field.

He is a better finisher around the rim now, but he is trying to be too fancy and often misses a layup when he should of dunked it.

The team doesn't need a fancy Smoove that spends energy at offensive end... We need him to take over games defensively.

[Guest]

I shouldn't have to. It's common knowledge that most players aren't going to be able to improve their career FT% by 26% after their first season.

Just off the top of my head, go look up the FT% stats for Amare, Dominique, and Antawn Jamison. Those guys are known for their work ethic, see how their FT% have progressed. I am sure it was all just "mental" their first years and had nothing to do with repetition. I have yet to see you point to a case where someone's FT% dropped from one year to another as much as Smoove's has (or even close to his drop). I would conjecture that if you were able to find an example it would have either resulted from a small sample size (due to injury) or after someone got a large/long contract.

I agree that whatever he is doing in regards to free throws, he needs to work even harder, but your justification makes no sense.

You are using anecdotal evidence. "Hey look at me, this is how it worked for me so it must work the same way for everyone else!" Reality is, repetition builds muscle memory which allows you to do repeated form over and over at a high level of precision. Decreasing the number of repetitions you do decreases your muscle memory which will result in less precision. Go and bowl everyday at least 10 games a day for a week. The next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. Then try a week where you only bowl half as much (either 5 games a day or 10 every other day). Then the next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. There will most likely be a statistically significant difference in your tracked scores. So would you attribute the difference to a mental block? Hell try that experiment with darts (cricket might give odd results, so just do 501 for simplicity) and track the same thing. You could even do this with free throws or any other event that has a simple outcome like horseshoe, bocci ball, kicking a field goal, etc.

[exodus]

Just off the top of my head, go look up the FT% stats for Amare, Dominique, and Antawn Jamison. Those guys are known for their work ethic, see how their FT% have progressed. I am sure it was all just "mental" their first years and had nothing to do with repetition. I have yet to see you point to a case where someone's FT% dropped from one year to another as much as Smoove's has (or even close to his drop). I would conjecture that if you were able to find an example it would have either resulted from a small sample size (due to injury) or after someone got a large/long contract.

You are using anecdotal evidence. "Hey look at me, this is how it worked for me so it must work the same way for everyone else!" Reality is, repetition builds muscle memory which allows you to do repeated form over and over at a high level of precision. Decreasing the number of repetitions you do decreases your muscle memory which will result in less precision. Go and bowl everyday at least 10 games a day for a week. The next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. Then try a week where you only bowl half as much (either 5 games a day or 10 every other day). Then the next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. There will most likely be a statistically significant difference in your tracked scores. So would you attribute the difference to a mental block? Hell try that experiment with darts (cricket might give odd results, so just do 501 for simplicity) and track the same thing. You could even do this with free throws or any other event that has a simple outcome like horseshoe, bocci ball, kicking a field goal, etc.

Smith made foul shots at his normal rate in December. After that his foul shooting fell off a cliff. Do you think he suddenly stopped practicing foul shots in January? When the rest of the team is working on foul shots in practice do you think he just sits on the side and watches them?

[Guest]

I think Smoove worked too hard on the offensive end during the offseason.. He focused on his footwork and post moves..... Now he is trying to show off his new moves while not playing high energy defense like he used to (1.7 bpg), shooting ft's worse than ever (56%) while spending too much energy at offensive end... Trust me, banging inside to get a shot off takes a lot of energy from you...

On a positive side, Smoove improved his back to back game and is shooting career high (48%) from the field.

He is a better finisher around the rim now, but he is trying to be too fancy and often misses a layup when he should of dunked it.

The team doesn't need a fancy Smoove that spends energy at offensive end... We need him to take over games defensively.

I don't know, every single one of his per minute stats is down this year. The only stats he has improved on is FG%, turnovers, and fouls. While it could be that he is expending more energy on the offensive end, I think you would need to have stats on where he shot the ball. So let's look at those stats:

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL11A.HTM - last year 52% of his attempts were "inside"

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM - this year 50% of his attempts are "inside"

So I don't think it is that he is banging inside more this year than last since he has less attempts overall this year than last and from the fewer attempts he has a lower % this year than last. I also don't think its an injury thing because his pre-injury (albeit a small sample size of 4 games, so I am not as confident on this) statistics are close to his post-injury statistics. Pre-injury was 12 ppg 8 rpg 2.5 bpg 2.25 spg 1.25 apg .571 FT% .426FG%. I find it really hard to dismiss that he is slacking off like most players do after getting a large payday. Players going from 22 to 23 shouldn't be regressing, it appears Smoove is bucking that trend though.

[Traceman]

Your serve sets the tempo for the rest of the point. There becomes lots of over thinking on where to place the ball, trying to get extra juice on it, and so on and so forth. A free throw is a yes or no outcome, you can also only place a free throw in one area for it to be successful (the basket). In tennis, if you continue to go to one's backhand on a serve then your opponent will read this and attack. You need to mix it up at an effective ratio and randomize so that you can remain effective.

Landing a serve in tennis is slightly less thinking than the pitcher v. batter. For a free throw, you don't have to think. The only thing you have to think about is whether or not you want to bank it (which 0 do) or just try and swish it. A free throw is very simple, the only time that there is a strategy to a free throw is if you need to intentionally miss it. Other than that rare instance, there is no other outcome in a free throw which is more desirable than just making it.

Man, my partner was WAY past caring WHERE the ball landed in the service box, he just wanted it IN. It got so bad that he would hit his first serve at about 50% of his capability (far less than the pace of his "normal" second serve) just so he wouldn't have to hit his second serve.

In your pitching analogy, think of a guy who just wanted to get the ball across the plate, even if it was slow and right down the middle. Think Tom Glavine lobbing the ball underhanded like a softball pitcher just trying to get it across the plate. That is where my partner was at.

[Dsinner]

Think Tom Glavine lobbing the ball underhanded like a softball pitcher just trying to get it across the plate. That is where my partner was at.

Only Glavine's never been that bad. Kinda the same I guess.

[AtLaS]

Just off the top of my head, go look up the FT% stats for Amare, Dominique, and Antawn Jamison. Those guys are known for their work ethic, see how their FT% have progressed. I am sure it was all just "mental" their first years and had nothing to do with repetition. I have yet to see you point to a case where someone's FT% dropped from one year to another as much as Smoove's has (or even close to his drop). I would conjecture that if you were able to find an example it would have either resulted from a small sample size (due to injury) or after someone got a large/long contract.

Please. Anyone who suffers a drop THAT drastic in percentage it is obviously more than mere lack of repetition unless they haven't played in years. It's not like that is true.

Bottom line, if you think free throws are almost purely repetition, than you are sadly mistaken. Funny how you didn't address the countless examples where I showed why.

Go and bowl everyday at least 10 games a day for a week. The next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. Then try a week where you only bowl half as much (either 5 games a day or 10 every other day). Then the next week bowl 2 games everyday and track your score. There will most likely be a statistically significant difference in your tracked scores.

If it's almost purely repetition as you so much want it to be, how do you explain all the players on teams who are bad free throw shooters and practice them all the time yet are still worse than most? Do you think Billups and Nash just work on free throws more than anyone in the NBA?

I just don't think you've ever played much basketball. I'm not questioning your knowledge of the sport, but on this particular subject you seem a little off by suggesting a player will lose form, etc. Losing form comes after sitting on a couch for a year+ and not touching a basketball.

Edited March 3, 2009 by AtLaS

[Red Hawk #21]

Darn this sux, hopefully his FT shooting improves but for some reason I doubt it...