Marvin vs. His contemporaries

[Diesel]

Seeing that there's all this talk about Marvin being the future. And seeing that there's some ban against talking about Marvin vs. Paul, Deron, or any other guard in the 2005 draft... Moreover, BK was stupid to pick a 6th Sf for this team..

Still, let's see if he got the best forward (4 years later).

Marvin Williams #2 = 14.2 ppg, 6.4 rebs, 1.3 assist, 46.1% FG, 37.5% 3 pt.

Charlie Villanueva #7 = 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rebs, 1.9 assists, 46.6% Fg, 38.8 3pt.

Joey Graham #16 = 8.1 ppg, 3.8 rebs, 0.7 assists, 49.4% FG, 23.3% 3pt.

Danny Granger #17 = 25 ppg, 5 rebs, 3.1 assists, 43.4% FG, 39.8% 3pt.

Gerald Green #18 = 5.5 ppg, 1.6 rebs, 0.5 assists, 43.6% FG, 30.8% 3pt.

Hakim Warrick #19 = 11.5 ppg, 5.2 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47.5% FG%, 23.5% 3pt.

Jason Maxiell #26 = 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rebs, 0.3 assists, 56.3% FG, 0% 3pt.

David Lee #30 = 16.5% ppg, 11.9 rebs, 2.0 assists, 55.6% FG, 0% 3pts.

Maybe I should have looked at these in per 35 or 48... but they are what they are. Marvin = about 4th. With Hakim Warrick pressing.

[Peoriabird]

Hawk fan of the year! Great to see fans showing their love for the home team's players!! Great post! It really adds a touch class to our outstanding discussions here on this Message board!

[exodus]

Seeing that there's all this talk about Marvin being the future. And seeing that there's some ban against talking about Marvin vs. Paul, Deron, or any other guard in the 2005 draft... Moreover, BK was stupid to pick a 6th Sf for this team..

Still, let's see if he got the best forward (4 years later).

Marvin Williams #2 = 14.2 ppg, 6.4 rebs, 1.3 assist, 46.1% FG, 37.5% 3 pt.

Charlie Villanueva #7 = 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rebs, 1.9 assists, 46.6% Fg, 38.8 3pt.

Joey Graham #16 = 8.1 ppg, 3.8 rebs, 0.7 assists, 49.4% FG, 23.3% 3pt.

Danny Granger #17 = 25 ppg, 5 rebs, 3.1 assists, 43.4% FG, 39.8% 3pt.

Gerald Green #18 = 5.5 ppg, 1.6 rebs, 0.5 assists, 43.6% FG, 30.8% 3pt.

Hakim Warrick #19 = 11.5 ppg, 5.2 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47.5% FG%, 23.5% 3pt.

Jason Maxiell #26 = 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rebs, 0.3 assists, 56.3% FG, 0% 3pt.

David Lee #30 = 16.5% ppg, 11.9 rebs, 2.0 assists, 55.6% FG, 0% 3pts.

Maybe I should have looked at these in per 35 or 48... but they are what they are. Marvin = about 4th. With Hakim Warrick pressing.

i don't see how someone can be Marvin's "contemporary" when they are 2 or more years older.

[DrReality]

Williams ahead of his (draft) class

By SEKOU SMITH

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Tuesday, March 03, 2009

New York — When Marvin Williams came into the NBA all the experts warned that it might be four of five years before it showed, but that he could end up being the best player in his draft class.

Early on, All-Stars Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger and budding star Monta Ellis made that prediction look shaky, when Williams watched his more seasoned draft classmates make much easier transitions to the league.

In the past four games, Hawks forward Marvin Williams is averaging 21.5 points on .536 (30-for-56) shooting from the floor, 467 (7-for-15) from beyond the 3-point line and .826 (19-for-23) from the free-throw line.

In his fourth season, Williams is looking every bit like the multi-talented swingman he was billed to be when the Hawks selected him with the No. 2 pick overall after his championship season at North Carolina.

“Marvin’s been great for us this season,” Hawks coach Mike Woodson said of Williams, who along with the Hawks is in town to take on the Knicks at Madison Square Garden Wednesday night. “He’s come back this year and improved his long shot, so he’s knocking down 3-pointers as well as posting the ball and getting to the free-throw line. He’s become a triple-threat in that regard. And that’s what you want from a guy at that position.”

Since the All-Star break, Williams has scored, rebounded and defended at a consistently high level. In the Hawks’ past four games, he’s averaging 21.5 points on .536 (30-for-56) shooting from the floor, 467 (7-for-15) from beyond the 3-point line and .826 (19-for-23) from the free-throw line.

“I haven’t changed anything,” Williams said of his approach. “I’ve just tried to pick it up wherever it was needed every night and take advantage of whatever the situation has been.”

As in Monday’s victory over Washington, when Joe Johnson was passing out of double teams to a wide-open Williams, who made four of his six shots from beyond the 3-point line and led the Hawks with 28 points.

“Marv has always been the kind of guy that does whatever the situation calls for,” Johnson said. “I said it earlier in the season, when he’s aggressive from outside that opens up the floor for everybody and gives him opportunities to attack the rim that help us because he’s such a good free-throw shooter. So he’s been big for us lately.”

While some of the other members of that 2005 draft class moved into starting roles immediately, Williams had to ease into his role with the Hawks.

Al Harrington was a captain and starter at small forward during his rookie season, meaning Williams had to settle for a reserve role while Paul, Williams, Granger and Ellis were barging their way into the limelight as starters.

Harrington left after that first summer, and Williams has been a fixture in the Hawks’ starting lineup ever since. He’s averaging 14.2 points, a career-high 6.4 rebounds and shooting as well as he ever has from the floor (.461) and 3-point line (.375).

Even more important to Williams is that he has been in the mix during every milestone the Hawks have reached the past year and a half, his rise mirroring the franchise’s rise from afterthought to the legitimate playoff contender it is today.

“That’s probably been the best part,” Williams said of his tenure with the Hawks. “To from where we were my rookie year, just trying to get through the season at this time, to now, with every game having playoff implications, that’s all you want. That’s all I ever wanted, was to be a part of a winning situation. I’ve never paid attention to any of the comparisons or any of that other stuff.”

[Wurider05]

Damn dude I thought that you were over this. It is kind of strange that you have been quite all year until Marvin starts playing better. We have a better record that all of the teams with the players you named and Marv is a big part of that. Like I stated in a previous post player situations are different.

You just have to be the bad guy. It's like if Marvin scores 28 points it isn't good enough or for some reason. You always complain. According to you Marvin shouldn't even be in the league or in the starting lineup. This from the guy who wrote man love articles about the greatness of Shelden Williams!! Man get out of here!!!! Marvin is producing and is very very efficient!!! What else can you ask for. He is arguably the best defensive player on the team. You are entitled to your opinion but your argument is very weak.

[Gray Mule]

:angel19:

Don't jump on Diesel.

He points out, and rightfully so, that MW is "right there" with the others

who was taken in the same draft.

That is a real positive.

Now, if he wasn't, that would be sad. But he is! MW is who we thought he was.

[Diesel]

Damn dude I thought that you were over this. It is kind of strange that you have been quite all year until Marvin starts playing better. We have a better record that all of the teams with the players you named and Marv is a big part of that. Like I stated in a previous post player situations are different.

You just have to be the bad guy. It's like if Marvin scores 28 points it isn't good enough or for some reason. You always complain. According to you Marvin shouldn't even be in the league or in the starting lineup. This from the guy who wrote man love articles about the greatness of Shelden Williams!! Man get out of here!!!! Marvin is producing and is very very efficient!!! What else can you ask for. He is arguably the best defensive player on the team. You are entitled to your opinion but your argument is very weak.

I just put the facts out there for you to interpret them... does that really make me the bad guy? I think we need to take a sobbering look at every player we have and not make up fairy tales. Does that make me the bad guy?

When we had a team full of Swingmen and Sf, I thought that it was the right move to make to take the best defensive big in the draft... does that make me a bad guy?

But here's the rub Wu... Just like I realized the truth about Shelden's play and acknowledged that he didn't play on this level as well as on the college level, I am also encouraging you to do the same with Marvin. Instead of proclaiming Marvin the greatest player since Worthy, I just showed you that in his draft class right now, he would probably be the 3rd or the 4th ranked forward. R U Sober yet?

[coachx]

Seeing that there's all this talk about Marvin being the future. And seeing that there's some ban against talking about Marvin vs. Paul, Deron, or any other guard in the 2005 draft... Moreover, BK was stupid to pick a 6th Sf for this team..

Still, let's see if he got the best forward (4 years later).

Marvin Williams #2 = 14.2 ppg, 6.4 rebs, 1.3 assist, 46.1% FG, 37.5% 3 pt.

Charlie Villanueva #7 = 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rebs, 1.9 assists, 46.6% Fg, 38.8 3pt.

Joey Graham #16 = 8.1 ppg, 3.8 rebs, 0.7 assists, 49.4% FG, 23.3% 3pt.

Danny Granger #17 = 25 ppg, 5 rebs, 3.1 assists, 43.4% FG, 39.8% 3pt.

Gerald Green #18 = 5.5 ppg, 1.6 rebs, 0.5 assists, 43.6% FG, 30.8% 3pt.

Hakim Warrick #19 = 11.5 ppg, 5.2 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47.5% FG%, 23.5% 3pt.

Jason Maxiell #26 = 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rebs, 0.3 assists, 56.3% FG, 0% 3pt.

David Lee #30 = 16.5% ppg, 11.9 rebs, 2.0 assists, 55.6% FG, 0% 3pts.

Maybe I should have looked at these in per 35 or 48... but they are what they are. Marvin = about 4th. With Hakim Warrick pressing.

Granger is the only SF on your list I'd take over Marvin.

David Lee is a rebound monster but has played most of the season at C and is a natural PF. Comparing wings to PF's or C's is tough. Lee probably plays in the fastest pace in the NBA. More possessions per game can really pad your stats with extra rebound oppurtunities and shot attempts.

Marvin over Charlie V every day of the week. Heck Charlie V plays PF and Marvin still equals his rebounding. Not to mention half the game is defense and Marvin is definately the superior defender.

Edited March 4, 2009 by coachx

[Atlantaholic]

Granger is the only SF on your list I'd take over Marvin.

David Lee is a rebound monster but has played most of the season at C and is a natural PF. Comparing wings to PF's or C's is tough. Lee probably plays in the fastest pace in the NBA. More possessions per game can really pad your stats with extra rebound oppurtunities and shot attempts.

Marvin over Charlie V every day of the week. Heck Charlie V plays PF and Marvin still equals his rebounding. Not to mention half the game is defense and Marvin is definately the superior defender.

In defense of Charlie V he is only averaging around 27 minutes per game

Edited March 4, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[Wurider05]

I just put the facts out there for you to interpret them... does that really make me the bad guy? I think we need to take a sobbering look at every player we have and not make up fairy tales. Does that make me the bad guy?

When we had a team full of Swingmen and Sf, I thought that it was the right move to make to take the best defensive big in the draft... does that make me a bad guy?

But here's the rub Wu... Just like I realized the truth about Shelden's play and acknowledged that he didn't play on this level as well as on the college level, I am also encouraging you to do the same with Marvin. Instead of proclaiming Marvin the greatest player since Worthy, I just showed you that in his draft class right now, he would probably be the 3rd or the 4th ranked forward. R U Sober yet?

Life is full of what if's. Not one of those guys was projected to go number 1 or number 2. I am just saying that the kid is starting to put it together and yet you talk about the draft class. So what. He is here now and he is helping us win. It has been a slow process but it is happening now. I have never proclaimed him to be the best thing since Worthy. What I am saying is that he is a part of our success.

Here is a quote from GM Sund--People put too much emphasis on where a player was drafted.They fail to look at the situation or the environment that a player is brought into" Lee and Granger are good players but they are putting up good numbers in losing teams. I heard you say yourself putting up good numbers on a bad team is meaningless!! Charlie V is one of the worst defenders in the league!! Granger is the man on that team. The offense goes through him. He has the green light to score of shot whenever he wants too. MArv is the 3 or 4th option on this team due to the way our offense is set up. He never takes 20 shots a game. If he did he numbers would be equal to or better than Granger because Marvin is a better shooter. Opportunity my son!!! Opportunity!!!

Let's just say that you are right and he is the 3rd or 4th best SF in his class so fricking what!!!! He's the best SF on the Atlanta Hawks!!!

You remind me of the lady off of Saturday Night Live--Debbie Downer!!

Edited March 4, 2009 by Wurider05

[Diesel]

Granger is the only SF on your list I'd take over Marvin.

David Lee is a rebound monster but has played most of the season at C and is a natural PF. Comparing wings to PF's or C's is tough. Lee probably plays in the fastest pace in the NBA. More possessions per game can really pad your stats with extra rebound oppurtunities and shot attempts.

Marvin over Charlie V every day of the week. Heck Charlie V plays PF and Marvin still equals his rebounding. Not to mention half the game is defense and Marvin is definately the superior defender.

Hey hey hey... these are raw numbers... No need to crank up the excuse machine. I mean for instance, I heard them talking on NBA.com saying that Marvin's true position is PF. Moreover, Boris Diaw has played C for his team whereas he played Sg for us. So has Al Harrington. Point being that none of what you said matters that much. It's just the numbers and calling these guys forward. Ask anybody familiar with basketball.. usually a 6'9 Sf can play PF too. In fact, it's very rare to find a 6'9 Sf.

But back to my point, these are numbers from the draft. Superior defender? Basis?

[Admin]

What are their Efficiency, PER, +/-, etc numbers?

[Diesel]

Lee and Granger are good players but they are putting up good numbers in losing teams. I heard you say yourself putting up good numbers on a bad team is meaningless!!

Wu, i want to challenge you to find that. I'm too much of a fan of Nique, Shareef, Joe Johnson, Mookie, and Steve Smith to have said that. Use our search and find that. I'll wait.

As far as defense goes... that's subjective right. I mean, you have no true measurable basis for that.

[tonegully]

Marvin over all of them except Granger, but i would like to see Marvin's numbers if he was our number 1 guy and had the green light like Granger does.

[Admin]

Marvin over all of them except Granger, but i would like to see Marvin's numbers if he was our number 1 guy and had the green light like Granger does.

Yep that's how I feel as well. I love Marvin but I'd take Granger over him any day not simply because of his ability but primarily because of his #1 scorer mentality.

[NineOhTheRino]

Yep that's how I feel as well. I love Marvin but I'd take Granger over him any day not simply because of his ability but primarily because of his #1 scorer mentality.

I think Marvin would have a scorers mentality if the roles were reversed. In Indiana Marvin would be the #1 option and would have no choice but to be the primary scorer. Granger in a Hawks uni would be 3rd option behind Joe and Bibby.

[exodus]

The bottom line is that Marvin and Granger aren't contemporaries. Granger is 3 years older.

During the 06/07 season Granger averaged 13.9 ppg shooting 45.9%, 38.2% from 3. I don't think anyone was looking at him as a number 1 option at that time.

I'd like to know who is quilty of "proclaiming Marvin the greatest player since Worthy".

[Buzzard]

I just put the facts out there for you to interpret them... does that really make me the bad guy? I think we need to take a sobbering look at every player we have and not make up fairy tales. Does that make me the bad guy?

When we had a team full of Swingmen and Sf, I thought that it was the right move to make to take the best defensive big in the draft... does that make me a bad guy?

But here's the rub Wu... Just like I realized the truth about Shelden's play and acknowledged that he didn't play on this level as well as on the college level, I am also encouraging you to do the same with Marvin. Instead of proclaiming Marvin the greatest player since Worthy, I just showed you that in his draft class right now, he would probably be the 3rd or the 4th ranked forward. R U Sober yet?

That is your interpretation.

I do think at this point Granger is the better offensive player but he is not a better defender; and he is also the #1 option and is 3yrs older than Marvin. I like David Lee for his rebounding but like Marvin's offense better and he is also three years older. No GM had any of these guys rated over Marvin that I am aware of and Marvin has three more years to catch up; but i do not think it will take him that long.

I wonder about fans like you sometimes; we are in the best spot we have been in for over a decade and still you want to act like we could be so muh better if our teams management did not suck so bad on draft day. Is there really a team out there that has not made bad decisions on draft day?

Before his season ending surgery, drafting Smoove and about five to ten other players before Jameer Nelson was looking like a really bad decision. There is always an all-star type player (usually more than one) in every draft taken between ten and twenty that "we" (name just about any NBA team) should have taken instead. That is what your saying right. That we should have drafted three or four other players over Marvin. Really appreciate you enlightening us lowly fans to this tid bit of knowledge.

If you really want a challenge Diesel, go find the teams that did not make any mistakes on draft day. Guaranteed it will be a very short list . lol

Edited March 4, 2009 by Buzzard

[Gray Mule]

:no-no:

What's going on here? We can't go back and change history. Ground Hog Day

was a great movie, but we just can't do that.

I believe Diesel's comparison is fair.

Hawks have a player, Marvin Williams.

He is our player.

He plays for our team.

He plays with all the other Hawks.

All the others listed play for other teams.

They have different coaches.

They play with different team mates.

Offensive & defensive schemes are different.

With all the differences, they are all NBA professional players. As such, each and

every one of them accumulate stats from their chosen profession.

Now, the real question. With all their differences that we noted above, what do we

find? There's just not that much difference. Not really. Even though there may

be some who play a different position with their team, they are still similar when

you look at the sold, hard statistics.

Some may be shorter, taller, heavier or lighter. Some faster or slower. Some may

be older or younger. So what? Does it make a diference? Sure it does. Just as

it makes a difference which team they play for.

What really should concern us and what we should really be talking about is this:

How much has each player played since he has been in the NBA? That's experience.

Has these players, as individuals, improved each season? That's progress.

Then, there's always that dreaded word, potential. Examine each player. Have

they reached their peak? Will they, if nothing happens, continue to grow and Improve?

This one we can only guess at. We can't possibly know this.

And the best part of all:

Marvin Williams is a Hawk!

He is OUR player!

He plays for our team!

:angel19:

[Diesel]

Marvin over all of them except Granger, but i would like to see Marvin's numbers if he was our number 1 guy and had the green light like Granger does.

What makes you think Marvin doesn't have a green light? For three years, the cries of Woody and JJ has been lack of aggressiveness from Marvin. Doesn't that suggest that there's a green light?

Why is it that there's always excuses made for Marvin?