Marvin vs. His contemporaries

[Diesel]

That is your interpretation.

I do think at this point Granger is the better offensive player but he is not a better defender; and he is also the #1 option and is 3yrs older than Marvin. I like David Lee for his rebounding but like Marvin's offense better and he is also three years older. No GM had any of these guys rated over Marvin that I am aware of and Marvin has three more years to catch up; but i do not think it will take him that long.

I wonder about fans like you sometimes; we are in the best spot we have been in for over a decade and still you want to act like we could be so muh better if our teams management did not suck so bad on draft day. Is there really a team out there that has not made bad decisions on draft day?

Before his season ending surgery, drafting Smoove and about five to ten other players before Jameer Nelson was looking like a really bad decision. There is always an all-star type player (usually more than one) in every draft taken between ten and twenty that "we" (name just about any NBA team) should have taken instead. That is what your saying right. That we should have drafted three or four other players over Marvin. Really appreciate you enlightening us lowly fans to this tid bit of knowledge.

If you really want a challenge Diesel, go find the teams that did not make any mistakes on draft day. Guaranteed it will be a very short list . lol

Sorry Buzzard.... but the age argument is old and over. Marvin has been a full time NBA starter for 3 freakin years and have played over 24 mpg for 4. There are some 4 year college stars who don't get a fraction of the minutes per season or per career that Marvin has seen in a month and they are older than him. Please quit with the excuses.

Nobody says "but Lebron's only ________ years old."

If you are a 3 yr starter playing in the NBA... and you have an age crutch, then you need to not be a starter any longer.

[Buzzard]

What makes you think Marvin doesn't have a green light? For three years, the cries of Woody and JJ has been lack of aggressiveness from Marvin. Doesn't that suggest that there's a green light?

Why is it that there's always excuses made for Marvin?

Marvin is the 3rd option at best Diesel. He just does not get enough touches, especially inside 18ft. Anyone that has watched a Hawks game knows our half court offense (Woody's offense) is guard oriented to a fault. You call this an excue lol. Yet half this board ( including you) sees it every game and bashes it after every loss.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

Sorry Buzzard.... but the age argument is old and over. Marvin has been a full time NBA starter for 3 freakin years and have played over 24 mpg for 4. There are some 4 year college stars who don't get a fraction of the minutes per season or per career that Marvin has seen in a month and they are older than him. Please quit with the excuses.

Nobody says "but Lebron's only ________ years old."

If you are a 3 yr starter playing in the NBA... and you have an age crutch, then you need to not be a starter any longer.

Well the scouts said it would take four to five years, so why would you not give it to him? We drafted him based on what the scouts said; at least I hope we did. And since that is the only thing you could find in my post to debate over; I can assume the rest of my aurgument is pretty valid.

[Diesel]

Marvin is the 3rd option at best Diesel. He just does not get enough touches, especially inside 18ft. Anyone that has watched a Hawks game knows our half court offense (Woody's offense) is guard oriented to a fault. You call this an excue lol. Yet half this board ( including you) sees it every game and bashes it after every loss.

I'm not talking about Option. I'm talking about his coach and teammate calling for him to be more aggressive and for 3.4 years, I have watched him pass up shots and duck and hide when people are looking to pass it to him. Read Joe's remarks of "praise" in today's article. He says "When Marvin plays aggressively....." Notice how he preface his commentary about Marvin's recent play. (he might not have used those exact words but same sentiment)... This is not a case of option because Joe will be the first option period. This is a case of aggressiveness and what does he do when he gets the ball. It is blatant from reading Woodson's and Joe's commentary for years now that nobody is telling Marvin to not shoot or to not take it to the hole but Marvin. He has a green Light. Stop making excuses.

[AHF]

Nobody says "but Lebron's only ________ years old."

People view Lebron's accomplishment through the lens of his age all the time. No one argues that Lebron's season is amazing because he is a six year NBA veteran. A lot of people argue his accomplishments are historic because he is doing this at age 24 and compare him to other superstars at age 24 and say he is on track to be in the GOAT discussion based on his accomplishments at his age.

Also, if you don't think NBA people look at a player through the lens of their age I offer T-Mac's maximum deal with Orlando as Exhibit A. NBA teams bet on the come on younger players. A lot of NBA fans do the same thing.

Age is absolutely a valid comparison when looking at what the future holds for Granger, Lee, etc. and Marvin.

[Diesel]

Well the scouts said it would take four to five years, so why would you not give it to him? We drafted him based on what the scouts said; at least I hope we did. And since that is the only thing you could find in my post to debate over; I can assume the rest of my aurgument is pretty valid.

:no-no: :no-no: :no-no: :no-no:

That number increases over and over again?

As I recall, he was a 2 year project.

Honestly, why would anybody draft a player that would take 4-5 years to develop knowing that his rookie contract would be up before we see development. STOP LYING...

Moreover, if he were a 4-5 year project, he would have never been picked 2nd overall.

[exodus]

I'm not talking about Option. I'm talking about his coach and teammate calling for him to be more aggressive and for 3.4 years, I have watched him pass up shots and duck and hide when people are looking to pass it to him. Read Joe's remarks of "praise" in today's article. He says "When Marvin plays aggressively....." Notice how he preface his commentary about Marvin's recent play. (he might not have used those exact words but same sentiment)... This is not a case of option because Joe will be the first option period. This is a case of aggressiveness and what does he do when he gets the ball. It is blatant from reading Woodson's and Joe's commentary for years now that nobody is telling Marvin to not shoot or to not take it to the hole but Marvin. He has a green Light. Stop making excuses.

LOL @ your double standards. When someone mentions Horford's lack of scoring you say it is because he is just "playing his role". Sorry you can't have it both ways. Why doesn't Horford's lack of aggression bother you?

[coachx]

Hey hey hey... these are raw numbers... No need to crank up the excuse machine. I mean for instance, I heard them talking on NBA.com saying that Marvin's true position is PF. Moreover, Boris Diaw has played C for his team whereas he played Sg for us. So has Al Harrington. Point being that none of what you said matters that much. It's just the numbers and calling these guys forward. Ask anybody familiar with basketball.. usually a 6'9 Sf can play PF too. In fact, it's very rare to find a 6'9 Sf.

But back to my point, these are numbers from the draft. Superior defender? Basis?

What excuse machine ? What excuse are your refering to? The simple facts that pace of play and the position of a player make a number for numbers comparison uselss. Come on ! Comapring Marvin to David Lee based on rebound numbers is silly. If you want to compare numbers compare SFs to other SFs.

Anyone who calls Marvin a PF is out of their mind. Just b/c some guy on NBA.com says something does not make it so.

Calling Marvin a superior defender to Charlie V should require NO basis or explanation. Charlie V is admittedly one of the worst defenders in the league. Mean while Marvin is defending the likes of LeBron one night, Kobe the next, and then McGrady, or Carter.

Why I waiste my time on here I do not know but the addiction is not as strong as it once was.

[Buzzard]

:no-no: :no-no: :no-no: :no-no:

That number increases over and over again?

As I recall, he was a 2 year project.

Honestly, why would anybody draft a player that would take 4-5 years to develop knowing that his rookie contract would be up before we see development. STOP LYING...

Moreover, if he were a 4-5 year project, he would have never been picked 2nd overall.

Marvin was a full time starter in the NBA after his 1st year. I am talking about reaching all star potentional in 4 to 5. What are you talking about happening in only two years? Now go find me your scouting report that stated what Marvin would be doing after two years. Talk about lying. Diesel can you not have a discussion that does not involve name calling?

Of course you can; so long as everyone agrees with you lol.

[AHF]

Marvin was a full time starter in the NBA after his 1st year. I am talking about reaching all star potentional in 4 to 5. What are you talking about happening in only two years? Now go find me your scouting report that stated what Marvin would be doing after two years. Talk about lying. Diesel can you not have a discussion that does not involve name calling?

Of course you can; so long as everyone agrees with you lol.

Not everyone was looking at a two year time table. For example:

Jay Bilas just said on ESPN, "In six years, we may look back on Marvin Williams as being the best player from this draft." Not bad, eh?

http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/2005_Draft_B...ive_080905.html

[DrReality]

I think Diesel gets a lot of satisfaction getting everyone so fired up. I'd say half of his 28000 post are doing this very thing.

[Buzzard]

I think Diesel gets a lot of satisfaction getting everyone so fired up. I'd say half of his 28000 post are doing this very thing.

I agree and actually like debating him right up until he starts with the "you are lying" post. But then again; this is when you know you have him. lol

[Buzzard]

Not everyone was looking at a two year time table. For example:

http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/2005_Draft_B...ive_080905.html

Thanks AHF. I never read anything about Marvin being an all star in only two years.

[Frenzy]

Even sekou knows marv is the future lol.Does he read hawksquawk?

Edited March 4, 2009 by falconfrenzy

[Diesel]

Marvin was a full time starter in the NBA after his 1st year. I am talking about reaching all star potentional in 4 to 5. What are you talking about happening in only two years? Now go find me your scouting report that stated what Marvin would be doing after two years. Talk about lying. Diesel can you not have a discussion that does not involve name calling?

Of course you can; so long as everyone agrees with you lol.

aFTER YOU FIND ONE SCOUTING REPORT THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT MARVIN BEING A STAR IN 5.

[Plainview1981]

Seeing that there's all this talk about Marvin being the future. And seeing that there's some ban against talking about Marvin vs. Paul, Deron, or any other guard in the 2005 draft... Moreover, BK was stupid to pick a 6th Sf for this team..

Still, let's see if he got the best forward (4 years later).

Marvin Williams #2 = 14.2 ppg, 6.4 rebs, 1.3 assist, 46.1% FG, 37.5% 3 pt.

Charlie Villanueva #7 = 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rebs, 1.9 assists, 46.6% Fg, 38.8 3pt.

Joey Graham #16 = 8.1 ppg, 3.8 rebs, 0.7 assists, 49.4% FG, 23.3% 3pt.

Danny Granger #17 = 25 ppg, 5 rebs, 3.1 assists, 43.4% FG, 39.8% 3pt.

Gerald Green #18 = 5.5 ppg, 1.6 rebs, 0.5 assists, 43.6% FG, 30.8% 3pt.

Hakim Warrick #19 = 11.5 ppg, 5.2 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47.5% FG%, 23.5% 3pt.

Jason Maxiell #26 = 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rebs, 0.3 assists, 56.3% FG, 0% 3pt.

David Lee #30 = 16.5% ppg, 11.9 rebs, 2.0 assists, 55.6% FG, 0% 3pts.

Maybe I should have looked at these in per 35 or 48... but they are what they are. Marvin = about 4th. With Hakim Warrick pressing.

I ignore David Lee's numbers because he plays in a stat padding system.

[Diesel]

Not everyone was looking at a two year time table. For example:

http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/2005_Draft_B...ive_080905.html

From your thread, I found this:

Note how BK talks about Marvin, Al, and Josh sharing 96 minutes and at the end he says "A healthy does of competition is good for everybody". That doesn't sound like somebody waiting 5 years for a turn around.

Also...

"I think Marvin's got superstar potential," one Eastern Conference executive said on condition of anonymity. "If you look at his stats, if he had played as much as the other guys, he probably would've been the leading scorer on the squad, the leading rebounder. With his body, he can be a more athletic Antoine Walker. He can be an all-star for years and years. I think he will be able to come in and help right away. He's too talented not to do it."

[Traceman]

Seeing that there's all this talk about Marvin being the future. And seeing that there's some ban against talking about Marvin vs. Paul, Deron, or any other guard in the 2005 draft... Moreover, BK was stupid to pick a 6th Sf for this team..

Still, let's see if he got the best forward (4 years later).

Marvin Williams #2 = 14.2 ppg, 6.4 rebs, 1.3 assist, 46.1% FG, 37.5% 3 pt.

Charlie Villanueva #7 = 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rebs, 1.9 assists, 46.6% Fg, 38.8 3pt.

Joey Graham #16 = 8.1 ppg, 3.8 rebs, 0.7 assists, 49.4% FG, 23.3% 3pt.

Danny Granger #17 = 25 ppg, 5 rebs, 3.1 assists, 43.4% FG, 39.8% 3pt.

Gerald Green #18 = 5.5 ppg, 1.6 rebs, 0.5 assists, 43.6% FG, 30.8% 3pt.

Hakim Warrick #19 = 11.5 ppg, 5.2 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47.5% FG%, 23.5% 3pt.

Jason Maxiell #26 = 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rebs, 0.3 assists, 56.3% FG, 0% 3pt.

David Lee #30 = 16.5% ppg, 11.9 rebs, 2.0 assists, 55.6% FG, 0% 3pts.

Maybe I should have looked at these in per 35 or 48... but they are what they are. Marvin = about 4th. With Hakim Warrick pressing.

The only guys who even belong in the conversation with Marv (Granger, Villanueva and Lee) are all putting up their numbers on TERRIBLE teams. In fact, the only player on the list on a winning team other than Marv is Green and he might as well be in the D-League. Bottom line, Marvin Williams is a winner!

[bronnt]

Diesel keeps using the same old numbers, and it's funny.

Here's who I'm looking at: Charlie V, Danny Granger, Joey Graham, Hakim Warrick, David Lee, Marvin Williams. I'm obviously excluding Gerald Green and Jason Maxiell for obvious reasons-they're much farther from the argument.

Of the guys that I listed, Marvin easily has the lowest USG%. This has been true pretty much since he was drafted, owing largely to his status of being a project player. It's easier to score more when you're more likely to be asked to score or do something on more possessions (duh).

USG% for each:

Charlie V- 28.5

Granger- 29.0

Graham- 18.6

Warrick- 22.3

David Lee- 19.1

Marvin- 18.0

Yes, he's used less than even Joey Graham. But you know what, he also has the lowest TO% of all of these players. So when he DOES get a chance to do something, he's unlikely to turn the ball over.

TO% for each:

Charlie V- 10.8

Granger- 10.2

Graham- 11.0

Warrick- 11.1

David Lee- 12.4

Marvin- 8.7

He's actually got a fairly big lead on the field when it comes to not turning the ball over. And it's not like he never has to dribble-certainly he doesn't do less than Warrick, Lee, or Graham. He runs isos and gets into the lane, so while he's not a primary ball handler for this team like Granger, he does have a responsibility for the ball. And he proves to be very responsible.

Now, here's a big one, and Diesel loved Chillz when he was here, so you have to look at this. TS% and eFG% are the measures of how efficient a scorer someone is. And as it turns out, David Lee is an extremely efficient scorer. This should be no surprise for those who've followed his career-he excels at getting in close to the basket and finishing those opportunities. But Marvin still fares very well in this category.

TS% and EFG% for each.

Charlie V- .550, .507

Granger- .575, .505

Graham- .554, .492

Warrick- .534, .476

David Lee- .559, .556

Marvin- .576, .508

So you can see that Marvin is almost EXACTLY as efficient a scorer as Danny Granger. He's slightly better than Charlie V, far superior to Warrick, and he even has a better TS% than Lee (this season-Lee dominates in other seasons...but Diesel was the one who posted this season's stats).

Another fun thing in the advanced stat category are things in the vein of on/off stats. Basketball-reference.com (where I pulled pretty much all of these numbers) like to ORtg and DRtg. Basically, predicted score of 100 possessions where this player is on the floor. I'm tired of posting numbers you can look up for yourself, but let's just say, Marvin and David Lee's numbers are exactly identical (and better than everyone else's, I might add).

In conclusion, the time/season to hate on Marvin is not the present.

[Red Hawk #21]

Marvin's a beast, dude didin't even get that many touches in previous years. Now that he is getting more touches, he's being agressive and he has also improved his shooting.