Joe & Smoove = Better without Marvin?

[Diesel]

And we should start Mo Evans along with Mike Bibby, 2 of the poorest defenders on the the team? You are making me appreciate Mike Woodson more and more!

It seems like our defense is looking very good without Marvin... the master of the non-visible defense.

[AtLaS]

My theory is about what happens when Marvin is not on the floor.

The sample size is too small to make a definitive judgement like this Diesel.

JJ couldn't make a wide open jumpshot for 2 months and now he's making them off the dribble with defenders hands in his face, how does that have anything to do with Marvin's absence? Smith called himself out for not rebounding after the dual with Woodson and now he's improved as well.

The only true statement is that we suck on the road and are good at home, period.

[Diesel]

I think it has more to do with Flip than the absence of Marvin. When Flip get's more time at the point with JJ and Smoove. It seems to affect the chemistry

I do too. I just think Flip is a better fit in our offensive scheme than Marvin. Also, having Flip on the floor pushes JJ to the 3 which I believe he does better than playing at the 2. Matchup wise, JJ just finished destroying two of the best defenders in the game. He made them look Aloof. That had nothing to do with Homecourt advantage.

[Peoriabird]

It seems like our defense is looking very good without Marvin... the master of the non-visible defense.

Are you sure you have a DVR? Sure doesn't sound like it!

[exodus]

Let's talk reality here.

Like it or not... When Marvin is absent, JJ and Smoove play better. The stats show this, when you watch us play, we're more fluid. That really is what Matters. You pointing to what we did with Marvin is kinda Meaningless. The argument is not about Marvin's presence, it's about Marvin's absence.

Diesel punks himself as usual. You say that Smith/JJ Hawks play better when Marvin is out but looking at what they did with Marvin is meaningless.

If you don't look at what JJ/Smith did WITH Marvin how can you tell they play better without him?

:jeer:

[Swatguy]

I believe the Friday night and Saturday meetings were the most important reason of the streak.

[mrhonline]

Wow. Exodus is "shcooling" this thread.

Two things -

1. The Hawks need to ADD depth, not take it away.

2. When Marvin plays, people accuse him of not being aggressive. When he doesn't play, people laud the other players for taking shots he would've taken had he played.

The Hawks have solid perimeter depth. (Which is another reason why they don't need Childress back I might add). They need to re-sign their guards and Marvin, and add to the frontcourt depth next season to challenge the Magic. It's really that simple.

[Peoriabird]

I do too. I just think Flip is a better fit in our offensive scheme than Marvin. Also, having Flip on the floor pushes JJ to the 3 which I believe he does better than playing at the 2. Matchup wise, JJ just finished destroying two of the best defenders in the game. He made them look Aloof. That had nothing to do with Homecourt advantage.

The team averages 99 ppg at home while shooting 47%. The team averaged 94.5 and shot an average of 45% the last 2 games but yet they were more efficient the last 2 games on offense. I guess numbers do lie!

[crimedog]

I think Marv is often the least important starter, but I don't think that his absence is what makes us better. As ex' pointed out, Josh started rebounding when Marv was still here and last season, Joe broke his slump around this time too.

I think what it points out is that Josh and Joe are what makes this team special. When Joe is tossin up enough bricks to build a YMCA and Josh is ignoring rebounds so he can perfect his pouty-face, we suck. When Joe's sweet J is falling and Josh is shutting down the lane, we are a nasty, well-rounded team. It would be nice to have Marv's more consistent shooting ability and better rebounding at the 3 than Joe/Mo, but he's sort of non-essential at this point - he isn't a detriment though.

[buckeye242424]

I think Marv is often the least important starter, but I don't think that his absence is what makes us better. As ex' pointed out, Josh started rebounding when Marv was still here and last season, Joe broke his slump around this time too.

I think what it points out is that Josh and Joe are what makes this team special. When Joe is tossin up enough bricks to build a YMCA and Josh is ignoring rebounds so he can perfect his pouty-face, we suck. When Joe's sweet J is falling and Josh is shutting down the lane, we are a nasty, well-rounded team. It would be nice to have Marv's more consistent shooting ability and better rebounding at the 3 than Joe/Mo, but he's sort of non-essential at this point - he isn't a detriment though.

I would disagree with one thing. I would say Bibby is our least important starter. Marvin's defense is solid, and he's our best one-on-one defender. Bibby is a liability on defense. We have capable back-ups in Acie and Flip that could run this team if needed. Most PG's in this league could manage the Hawks. It's not like our offense is hard to learn. Give it to Joe and get out of the way! lol

[Peoriabird]

but he's sort of non-essential at this point

Its amazing what short memories a couple of victories will cause. Marvin is often on the other team's best wing scorer for a reason. He is our best perimeter defender just ask Lebron! But now he is Non-essential? I hate this fan base!

[Dsinner]

Its amazing what short memories a couple of victories will cause. Marvin is often on the other team's best wing scorer for a reason. He is our best perimeter defender just ask Lebron! But now he is Non-essential? I hate this fan base!

What has Marvin done to elevate his teamates play?

[Diesel]

The sample size is too small to make a definitive judgement like this Diesel.

JJ couldn't make a wide open jumpshot for 2 months and now he's making them off the dribble with defenders hands in his face, how does that have anything to do with Marvin's absence? Smith called himself out for not rebounding after the dual with Woodson and now he's improved as well.

The only true statement is that we suck on the road and are good at home, period.

This is not just looking at 2 games this month. We have other games in the season that fits the pattern. Like I said before, you guys would be arguing sample size if we played 30 games without Marvin.

[buckeye242424]

What has Marvin done to elevate his teamates play?

I believe expending the energy to guard the other teams' best player would elevate the team's morale on defense. Nobody wants to constantly guard LeBron and Wade, that would be exhausting!

[Diesel]

I think what it points out is that Josh and Joe are what makes this team special.

Exactly... And couldn't the results we see when Joe is at Sf and Flip at SG be the determining factor in our better play without Marvin?

Joe plays better at the Sf. That's the hypothesis. We don't have to lose Marvin altogether, I say let him come off the bench. But Joe @ Sf is proving to be much better than Joe @ SG. The reasons are obvious, he has a speed advantage on most SF and definitely on PF (on the switch). When Joe gets switched off to a Pf and he's on the perimeter, the PF is in no man's land. You don't get that against a 2.

[AtLaS]

I believe expending the energy to guard the other teams' best player would elevate the team's morale on defense. Nobody wants to constantly guard LeBron and Wade, that would be exhausting!

Did y'all even watch the Cleveland game? I have, and Marvin was only guarding LeBron maybe half the time at the most. He did make a few nice plays on him, but he didn't shut him down by any means.

[exodus]

This is not just looking at 2 games this month. We have other games in the season that fits the pattern. Like I said before, you guys would be arguing sample size if we played 30 games without Marvin.

I am still waiting to hear how you can conclude Smith/JJ play better without Marvin if you don't look at the games they played WITH Marvin for comparison.

:slap1:

[crimedog]

Its amazing what short memories a couple of victories will cause. Marvin is often on the other team's best wing scorer for a reason. He is our best perimeter defender just ask Lebron! But now he is Non-essential? I hate this fan base!

Bird, YOU don't have to be objective if you don't want to. You need to start letting other people be both objective and fans. If we weren't fans we wouldn't be on this message board all day.

Marv is a solid perimeter defender. He is by no means a lockdown perimeter defender. Lebron had a worse game against Orlando, are we going to call Hedo a lockdown guy too?

The difference between our defense with Marv and without him isn't huge, because we have other solid guys on the perimeter. Especially when Josh and Al are both playing well and our defensive strength becomes very obviously our ability to protect the rim.

[AtLaS]

This is not just looking at 2 games this month. We have other games in the season that fits the pattern. Like I said before, you guys would be arguing sample size if we played 30 games without Marvin.

So, because Marvin is on the floor, JJ can't make a WIDE open jumpshot?

Or, when he's off the floor, JJ can make contested shots off the dribble?

What you are arguing makes no sense..

[Red Hawk #21]

I think it has more to do with Flip than the absence of Marvin. When Flip get's more time at the point with JJ and Smoove. It seems to affect the chemistry

The Marvin Williams hate continues...