Long way with Woody...

[Diesel]

Just as we've watched this team grow, we have also watched this green coach grow. I remember when Woody first started coaching, he was a players coach and he let the players do it their way. Who could forget Antoine Walker was basically running the team.. And leadership came from Kevin Willis and Kenny Anderson. He made the mistake of allowing Smoove to grow up thinking that he's more than he is. I mean, I think Smoove is great, but Smoove needs a reality check from time to time. I think the one place where we have seen changes in Woody is his handling of players. He's a little more authoritative these days. However, not much more. I think the biggest things that need to go are:

1. Static substitution pattern. I remember he first came out with this so that players would know when they were coming out. Well, it worked for the players, but it's not always the best in game choice. Like the other night, Flip offered some good defense on Parker (for once) and Wood takes him out for the rest of the game??

2. Thinking that inside offense doesn't matter. You win by outscoring your opponents. Shooting high percentages gives you the best chance of winning. It's almost as if Wood hates to establish the inside. However, establishing the inside is much better than just rumaging outside. The guards are not the end all and be all of offense.

3. Iso Joe. Can we get a real PG who will distribute the ball and run an offensive set each time down? Iso joe is wonderful to watch sometimes, but can we save that until the game is on the line?

4. The doghouse. It's so silly to have a doghouse at this level. So a guy doesn't do it the way you want. Do you have to ignore him forever? Where is the forgiveness?

I'm not going to join in the choir with those who say fire him because I recognize that we are 4th in the east and are a strong home team. I just hope these things can change.

[AtLaS]

I agree we can't fire him right now, but expecting things to change when they've been the same for 5 years is blind faith...

[Diesel]

I agree we can't fire him right now, but expecting things to change when they've been the same for 5 years is blind faith...

I've seen small changes so the faith is not completely blind. I mean, he's using his bench a little more. He's run a few offensive pick and rolls. However, the problem is the small steps. He needs to get more comfortable of doing those things on a bigger level.

[Swatguy]

I believe bullet points 2 and 3 are respective of each other. I mean the lack of inside presence is a response to "go with what you know". I do believe we can benefit by going at P&R's consistantly with Al, Josh and Zaza.

We do not have a strong post up offense so we need movement.

[buckeye242424]

Just as we've watched this team grow, we have also watched this green coach grow. I remember when Woody first started coaching, he was a players coach and he let the players do it their way. Who could forget Antoine Walker was basically running the team.. And leadership came from Kevin Willis and Kenny Anderson. He made the mistake of allowing Smoove to grow up thinking that he's more than he is. I mean, I think Smoove is great, but Smoove needs a reality check from time to time. I think the one place where we have seen changes in Woody is his handling of players. He's a little more authoritative these days. However, not much more. I think the biggest things that need to go are:

1. Static substitution pattern. I remember he first came out with this so that players would know when they were coming out. Well, it worked for the players, but it's not always the best in game choice. Like the other night, Flip offered some good defense on Parker (for once) and Wood takes him out for the rest of the game??

2. Thinking that inside offense doesn't matter. You win by outscoring your opponents. Shooting high percentages gives you the best chance of winning. It's almost as if Wood hates to establish the inside. However, establishing the inside is much better than just rumaging outside. The guards are not the end all and be all of offense.

3. Iso Joe. Can we get a real PG who will distribute the ball and run an offensive set each time down? Iso joe is wonderful to watch sometimes, but can we save that until the game is on the line?

4. The doghouse. It's so silly to have a doghouse at this level. So a guy doesn't do it the way you want. Do you have to ignore him forever? Where is the forgiveness?

I'm not going to join in the choir with those who say fire him because I recognize that we are 4th in the east and are a strong home team. I just hope these things can change.

You'd think we would have one by acquiring a decent vet in Bibby, and drafting a PG with a top 10 pick in Acie. Yet we don't. Or, is it the fact that Woody chooses to iso Joe 95% of the time and does not put the PG in a position to run the team?

[tonegully]

Hmmmmm, Woody is a terrible coach. I cant wait until we fire this guy. We have no offensive sets and 90% of his subs dont make any sense.

I give him credit we are the 4th in the east and have improved every year. I just dont think we can ever make it up another level with him leading us.

[buckeye242424]

Hmmmmm, Woody is a terrible coach. I cant wait until we fire this guy. We have no offensive sets and 90% of his subs dont make any sense.

I give him credit we are the 4th in the east and have improved every year. I just dont think we can ever make it up another level with him leading us.

My sentiments to a "T". I don't think the guy is a total waste of space. There's some merit there to what he has done the last five years. However, the goal is a championship. Is Woody a championship level HC? No, I don't think so. Riding JJ's coattails can only take him so far. He has to find other ways to score other than letting JJ create for himself or everyone else.

[Diesel]

My sentiments to a "T". I don't think the guy is a total waste of space. There's some merit there to what he has done the last five years. However, the goal is a championship. Is Woody a championship level HC? No, I don't think so. Riding JJ's coattails can only take him so far. He has to find other ways to score other than letting JJ create for himself or everyone else.

The problem is that Joe was a 3rd or 4th option on a good team when we got him. It's not like we went out and got Kobe. However, now, Joe is 2 time allstar.

[tgunzz]

I agree with you D, I have notice small changes. Woody even makes adjustments SOMETIMES at half. That's a big change for him. I think that he can only change so much, though. Woody's BB creativity is limited and the fact that he doesn't have a coach with HC experience on his bench doesn't help him either.

What would help Woody and the Hawks is to hire either a coordinator type coach to help him with designing different offensive and/or defensive schemes or a asst coach that had HC experience, to be a sounding board for in game adjustments and dealing with players. The HC coach idea is probably not optimal because it could cause Woody to look over his shoulder and worry about his job security too much. But just like Josh needs some extra help, so does Woody. I think adding talent and BB smarts to his coaching staff will help both Woody and the players.

[tgunzz]

The problem is that Joe was a 3rd or 4th option on a good team when we got him. It's not like we went out and got Kobe. However, now, Joe is 2 time allstar.

Joe's not the same player he was then.

[GameTime]

I agree with you D, I have notice small changes. Woody even makes adjustments SOMETIMES at half. That's a big change for him. I think that he can only change so much, though. Woody's BB creativity is limited and the fact that he doesn't have a coach with HC experience on his bench doesn't help him either.

What would help Woody and the Hawks is to hire either a coordinator type coach to help him with designing different offensive and/or defensive schemes or a asst coach that had HC experience, to be a sounding board for in game adjustments and dealing with players. The HC coach idea is probably not optimal because it could cause Woody to look over his shoulder and worry about his job security too much. But just like Josh needs some extra help, so does Woody. I think adding talent and BB smarts to his coaching staff will help both Woody and the players.

Or stop putting sugar on a wound and just fire Woody and hire a good coach.

[macdaddy]

I agree with Diesel. He has improved a lot. I still don't have much faith in him to take us to the next level. But hey I didn't think he'd be able to show these guys how to win and he's done that. If he farms the offense out to an good assistant it could make a world of difference.

Watching games now my biggest beefs are the bad subs and the lack of physical play. We often play really good defense but you just can't allow layups without hard fouls. No team built on defense can be soft around the basket. When Smoove was dominating the paint he covered up for that but now we need to get more physical.

[tgunzz]

Or stop putting sugar on a wound and just fire Woody and hire a good coach.

That's also an option. Undertand that that option has been on the table for about 3 years now. It hasn't been exercised. So, if you are keep this guy for continuity and budgetary reasons, you need to prop him up to help him be successful.

[tonegully]

If we keep him as HC i think we need someone like Nique as an assistant. Nique doesnt may not be a good commentator but i bet he can get some of these players motivated ala Smoove. Help give JJ that killer instinct.

But id just rather fire Woody and save us all the headache.

[Wretch]

I could not agree more with everything you've said. This thread echos my thoughts every time I watch the Hawks play. The underlying theme here is pretty clear - Woodson is terrible at making adjustments. Either in-game or in his philosophy.

On point 1) How long have we been harping on this? Sometimes you need to stick with a lineup that's keeping you in the game, getting you back into the game, or that is effectively holding the lead. I've seen good coaches coach - and they normally keep a non-starting lineup going until a few plays break down.

On point 2) Jumpshots will not get you there. We can't settle for jumpshots and that is our #1 problem on offense. If an armchair coach like me can see that, how the #$&! can Woodson not see it? We've all seen good jump shooting teams, but when is the last time you've seen such a team in the finals? Dallas a few years back? The easiest way to win in this league is with easy baskets. We need high percentage shots. Horford, Smith, and JJ are ALL capable of posting up or getting into the lane.

The situation with Horford in particular pisses me off. Coming out of the gates Woody said he had no intention of running any offense through the guy ("We just need him to do the dirty work"). Horford has got REALLY good potential down on the blocks. He needs some work, some encouragement, and he needs the chance to do it. But as long as we continue to rely upon JJ to create for everyone else, with no ball movement, and long jumpers when that fails... I digress though.

On point 3) Seriously... Teams will literally throw 2 1/2 guys at JJ and Woodson will not change the gameplan. The Celtics in particular are just blatant about it. Doc Rivers is like a cattle-driver, dictating our entire offense every time we play. And Woodson is like the lead cow doing exactly what the opposition wants. We will never beat the better teams (at least not consistently) until this team learns to A D A P T.

Not only that, but NOBDY will get a chance to step up. It's great that we have a guy like JJ, but it is in our best interests to switch things up and give other guys a chance to spread the offense. It's how good coaches like Pop and Sloan get the best even out of career scrubs.

On point 4) You're going to have a dog house when you're like a 2 year old trying to force a square peg into a round hole. We'll never know what guys can really do because Woodson won't allow for any diversity. He won't allow a guy like Diaw to facilitate. He won't allow a guy like Acie to grow and make mistakes (and certainly won't switch up the "offense" to accommodate him or experiment). And guys who get virtually no PT are just lost as they will never get ample opportunity to prove their worth.

Woodson isn't all bad, but how long is it going to take him to learn what it takes to get the best out of a team? We're good, but we should be better than we are.

[benhillboy]

Nique as an assistant doesn't sound bad at all. Woody is O.K., but the best teams in the league have assistants as good as the head to bounce ideas and diversify things, mainly offensive options.

[tonegully]

Im telling you guys. I think Nique would do awesome as an AC. Nique knows the game, he knows how to score, he has lead the Hawks to 4 straight 50 win seasons. He is mainly there to tell Woody like it is. Just like Nique called out that defense we were playing on Parker.

Maybe he can bring back some of them 88 Hawks offensive and defensive sets up.

And i bet the players will listen to Nique. He may have not won a NBA title but the man could put the ball in the hole and even though we traded him he STILL is the face of the Hawks hands down and has that respect from the players. Maybe he can help Joe find that IT factor.

Edited March 28, 2009 by tonegully

[JackB1]

Woody has progressed this year, but only a TINY bit. We still lose to elite teams because we get outcoached

by them every time. I wil continue to belive that the Hawks contine to improve, but not because of Woody. The

only positive Woodys new contract offered was stability. I HAVE NEVER seen Woody adjust to what the opposition is

doing fast or effective enough.

[Frenzy]

Im telling you guys. I think Nique would do awesome as an AC. Nique knows the game, he knows how to score, he has lead the Hawks to 4 straight 50 win seasons. He is mainly there to tell Woody like it is. Just like Nique called out that defense we were playing on Parker.

Maybe he can bring back some of them 88 Hawks offensive and defensive sets up.

And i bet the players will listen to Nique. He may have not won a NBA title but the man could put the ball in the hole and even though we traded him he STILL is the face of the Hawks hands down and has that respect from the players. Maybe he can help Joe find that IT factor.

I agree