Re-thinking Horford's value: Undeveloped offensive game hurts future

[HAWKS1986]

I am definitely not an Al Horford hater, but his power forward skills are lacking. And there are times, he can be taken totally out of the game and is absolutely no threat in shooting the ball.

He is not the next Karl Malone or even the next Carlos Boozer, but when is Big Al going to take his offensive game to another level? Will Big Al turn from starter (averaging 32-37 minutes) to valuable benchwarmer or energy player (averaging (20-23 minutes) per game.

Big Al hasn't been much of a shot blocker, gets out-muscled or made to seem very small against more skilled, bigger players. And his lack of confidence in his outside shot is a little unsettling.

He is young, but so is Paul Milsap and Michael Beasley.

Al plays with more heart than Marvin, but Big Al was a Top 10 pick. So Big Al has to be held accountable for his growth as an offensive player.

With Carlos Boozer out there as a free agent option, the Hawks need to take some chances in improving their team.

[AtLaS]

He could be just as effective as Paul Milsap but we have no offensive system. The only way he can score is by going 1 on 1. We don't run the PnR for him even though he'd be perfect for it, and we have a top 5 PG in terms of the PnR. There aren't many offensively talented bigs that you can just give the ball too and expect a basket. Milsap is not one of those either but he actually plays in an offensive system..

Edited May 6, 2009 by AtLaS

[Plainview1981]

I am definitely not an Al Horford hater, but his power forward skills are lacking. And there are times, he can be taken totally out of the game and is absolutely no threat in shooting the ball.

He is not the next Karl Malone or even the next Carlos Boozer, but when is Big Al going to take his offensive game to another level? Will Big Al turn from starter (averaging 32-37 minutes) to valuable benchwarmer or energy player (averaging (20-23 minutes) per game.

Big Al hasn't been much of a shot blocker, gets out-muscled or made to seem very small against more skilled, bigger players. And his lack of confidence in his outside shot is a little unsettling.

He is young, but so is Paul Milsap and Michael Beasley.

Al plays with more heart than Marvin, but Big Al was a Top 10 pick. So Big Al has to be held accountable for his growth as an offensive player.

With Carlos Boozer out there as a free agent option, the Hawks need to take some chances in improving their team.

Al is just a decent bench player. He didn't improve this year and I doubt he ever will.

[HAWKS1986]

He could be just as effective as Paul Milsap but we have no offensive system. The only way he can score is by going 1 on 1. We don't run the PnR for him even though he'd be perfect for it, and we have a top 5 PG in terms of the PnR. There aren't many offensively talented bigs that you can just give the ball too and expect a basket. Milsap is not one of those either but he actually plays in an offensive system..

I have been hearing and reading about this offensive coordinator theory-- let's do it..if it helps..

[HAWKS1986]

Al is just a decent bench player. He didn't improve this year and I doubt he ever will.

Yeah, it seems you are right Hotlanta1981. I really want to give Big Al the benefit of the doubt, but next year will be his third year.

Big Al plays with energy, but his lacking offensive skills and being undersized power forward is not conducive to a long future as a starter...and it is definitely a growing concern.

[GameTime]

Yeah, it seems you are right Hotlanta1981. I really want to give Big Al the benefit of the doubt, but next year will be his third year.

Big Al plays with energy, but his lacking offensive skills and being undersized power forward is not conducive to a long future as a starter...and it is definitely a growing concern.

Undersized Power Forward?

[Plainview1981]

Yeah, it seems you are right Hotlanta1981. I really want to give Big Al the benefit of the doubt, but next year will be his third year.

Big Al plays with energy, but his lacking offensive skills and being undersized power forward is not conducive to a long future as a starter...and it is definitely a growing concern.

His offensive game is predictable. It seems like he can't have a really big game unless the other teams big men are terrible. Like the Bulls for starters.

[Diesel]

He could be just as effective as Paul Milsap but we have no offensive system. The only way he can score is by going 1 on 1. We don't run the PnR for him even though he'd be perfect for it, and we have a top 5 PG in terms of the PnR. There aren't many offensively talented bigs that you can just give the ball too and expect a basket. Milsap is not one of those either but he actually plays in an offensive system..

Naw. This one you can't blame totally on scheme. Al doesn't have a goto move or a post presence. His best hope is that high post set shot. In comparison to a guy like Beasley, Beasley has moves. Lots of em. In a few years, he will be scary. Horf hasn't got one move. He's exactly what Wood wants him to be... a player to do dirty work.

[Wretch]

Woodson said that he had no offensive expectations for Horford when we drafted him - saying that we had enough people who could score. He was only interested in Horford doing the "dirty work." So not only do we not have an offensive system that he can grow in, but we have a coach who is not interested in growing him.

[Admin]

Woodson said that he had no offensive expectations for Horford when we drafted him - saying that we had enough people who could score. He was only interested in Horford doing the "dirty work." So not only do we not have an offensive system that he can grow in, but we have a coach who is not interested in growing him.

What an awful coach! No good coach would ever do something like that. Well unless you count Phil Jackson with Dennis Rodman, or even last night's reference to how Mike Brown uses Varejao. :hush:

I hope nobody here thinks that if Al put in the work to become a better scorer that Woody wouldn't be thrilled to have that but what the Hawks really need out of Horford is defense, rebounding, and to be able to hit that often wide open jumper from the elbow. As Atlas has mentioned MANY times if we ran the PnR with him he could be a dangerous scorer because very few bigs could keep up with him and if the guard got switched onto him then Al would murder him.

Finally, let's not get too "emotional" about Al's value right now when he's clearly struggling with the ankle injury. As (I believe it was Stockton) mentioned last night he hasn't looked the same since he hurt his ankle and whether it's a physical limitation or a lack of confidence in his ankle it's clearly an issue.

[JackB1]

I disagree.

Although Al's stats haven't improved (due to injuries), his offensive skills have. He looks much more confident in the post and has developed more moves since last year. He shoots a great percentage (usually around 50) but doesn't get enough touches and lots of times he has to force one up because the clock is running out. Woodson runs no plays for him and doesn't know how to use him effectively. There aren't too many big men that can run with Al on the break, but how often do you see that happen? There was all this talk about running when we drafted Al, but it never seemed to pan out.

Al HAS improved in his second year and if given the right tools and system can continue to develop. Going from one of the best college coaches to one of the worst pro coaches has got to be frustrating for him. Everyone also forgets he is playing out of position because we dont have a better alternative at center.

[crimedog]

I think its a combination of a few things. We don't get Al out in transition too often and we don't run many pick and rolls with him which is where he would shine. On the other hand, he isn't a particulalry good offensive player when it comes to making his own offense. He isn't skilled enough to dominate in the post and he isn't aggressive enough to take advantage of matchups.

That being said, what are we gonna do about it? Who would you replace him with and how would you get that player?

Obviously the "Al is untouchable", "Al is like Tim Duncan", "Al is going to put up Karl Malone numbers" nonsense of this past summer was foolish, but the fact remains that he's a versatile and fairly effective big man on a rookie contract. If someone else thinks he'll be a star and is willing to give up star value for him, lets do that, otherwise he is what he is and thats enough for now.

[Diesel]

I think its a combination of a few things. We don't get Al out in transition too often and we don't run many pick and rolls with him which is where he would shine. On the other hand, he isn't a particulalry good offensive player when it comes to making his own offense. He isn't skilled enough to dominate in the post and he isn't aggressive enough to take advantage of matchups.

That being said, what are we gonna do about it? Who would you replace him with and how would you get that player?

Obviously the "Al is untouchable", "Al is like Tim Duncan", "Al is going to put up Karl Malone numbers" nonsense of this past summer was foolish, but the fact remains that he's a versatile and fairly effective big man on a rookie contract. If someone else thinks he'll be a star and is willing to give up star value for him, lets do that, otherwise he is what he is and thats enough for now.

Actually, Al has the same skilset that Karl Malone had when he came into the league.

Undersized PF with strength and the want to to grab rebounds and play physically. Al has to be hooked up with the right big man coach and we have to change our offensive scheme.

First and foremost, out of that high post, we need to play pick and roll with AL as our offensive beginning. I would either roll Al to the basket or fade him to a high post shot. I would love to see us do that with Bibby as Point. I think we should resign Bibby if it's cost worthy. Bibs is a PNR Pg... Also, with that PNR, we need more motion in our offense. Everybody should be moving and know where we're going.

Last night, if you watched it, you saw our ADHD... Offensively, we were doing well in the 1st quarter. Our goal was simple, score inside. It was working. However, The defense tightened and gave Smoove more outside shots. When their defense collapsed in, we were supposed to keep attacking the inside. Instead, we began a jumpshooting team. And we shot ourselves out of the game.

We need better offensive displine.

Eddie Jordan!

[crimedog]

Actually, Al has the same skilset that Karl Malone had when he came into the league.

Undersized PF with strength and the want to to grab rebounds and play physically. Al has to be hooked up with the right big man coach and we have to change our offensive scheme.

Al isn't undersized at PF... neither was Malone...

Al doesn't have the offensive game Malone did, not coming into the league, not later. Malone was one of the most aggressive players in the history of the league. He LOVED to mix it up, loved contact inside. Al is timid. They aren't alike at all.

[buckeye242424]

What an awful coach! No good coach would ever do something like that. Well unless you count Phil Jackson with Dennis Rodman, or even last night's reference to how Mike Brown uses Varejao. :hush:

I hope nobody here thinks that if Al put in the work to become a better scorer that Woody wouldn't be thrilled to have that but what the Hawks really need out of Horford is defense, rebounding, and to be able to hit that often wide open jumper from the elbow. As Atlas has mentioned MANY times if we ran the PnR with him he could be a dangerous scorer because very few bigs could keep up with him and if the guard got switched onto him then Al would murder him.

Finally, let's not get too "emotional" about Al's value right now when he's clearly struggling with the ankle injury. As (I believe it was Stockton) mentioned last night he hasn't looked the same since he hurt his ankle and whether it's a physical limitation or a lack of confidence in his ankle it's clearly an issue.

I agree with Dolfan. The last 10 games or so, Al was healthy and double-doubles were the norm. Not just 10 and 10 either. He's clearly not healthy. His offensive game needs improvement, as does most second year players.

[BossTweed]

Yeah, I don't think Al is healthy right now. Plus you are talking about his value and offensive ability as a Power Forward, a position he barely gets to play. How often is Al the PF on offense? Do you expect him to score in the paint over Big Z?

I agree he hasn't taken his game to the next level yet, and I'd like to see him use quickness to beat bigger centers, but he also hasn't gotten enough touches in good situations on offense. You can't develop a post game if you only get the ball in the post 2 or 3 times a game.

[HAWKS1986]

Woodson said that he had no offensive expectations for Horford when we drafted him - saying that we had enough people who could score. He was only interested in Horford doing the "dirty work." So not only do we not have an offensive system that he can grow in, but we have a coach who is not interested in growing him.

I remember Woodson saying those comments about Horford. Horford was the 3rd pick in the whole draft a few years ago.

[Deeman]

I think Al's ceiling is being a 15/10 guy and there is nothing wrong with that. Alot of people on this board were hyping Al up a little too much last year.

[DrReality]

I think Al's ceiling is being a 15/10 guy and there is nothing wrong with that. Alot of people on this board were hyping Al up a little too much last year.

I agree with that and I think it is impossible to really evaluate him given the lack of offense, JJ iso, etc. He needs a set system to grow in and that has not happened.

[macdaddy]

Geez you guys are crazy. The dude basically averaged a double double in his second year with 2.5 assists a game. That's with all four other starters and Flip averaging double figure points and Al shooting well over 50% from the field.

Not sure why anyone would think he was timid or what the statement about him being a top 10 pick so he is accountable for improving his offense? Are other players not accountable? Are top picks required to average 20 points a game?

When you get guys on your team who are winners you keep them. He's got a bum ankle and he's out there fighting. If you think Al is a bench player then you are severely underestimating him.