Deconstructing the Hawks!

[Wurider05]

I can honestly see the we are not that far from being an elite team in the NBA. We have no chance in the second round with three injured starters. Whether we played Cleveland or not it would be hard in the second round with the injuries we have. Hell playing hurt is the same as being injured. I actually saw Marvin trying to grab a rebound with his left hand. I mean Horf, Marv, and JJ have showed some heart for giving it a go. Horf and Marv were in pain the last game.

Like most of you I am not happy with the way things are going right now but all this gloom and doom needs to stop. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever say this but I think Woody is a good coach but he has flaws. IF we can upgrade (Fratello, etc) then I am all for it. I am starting to see what Woody is trying to do. One of his flaws is the he doesn't trust his bench or the younger guys. He is pushing defense with Bibby, Flip, and Smoove getting major minutes and that just ain't happening!! If they give Woody any say on personnel I know who will be the first player gone!!

I think that our biggest problem is the pg point and Smoove.

pg-we need a distributer/slasher pg. Bibby just hangs around the perimeter. Hence lies the problem. Bibby hangs around the perimeter, JJ hangs around the perimeter, Smoove hangs around the perimeter, and Marvin is glued to the right side of the perimeter. That leaves Horford in the paint but he likes to shot jumpers it seems. Marvin and Flip are the only two players that we have that will not settle for jumpers all night. Marv draws contact and gets to the free throw line. We got to many guys standing around doing nothing and that makes it easier for the other team on defense. If we had slasher that is a threat to get to the paint than that would force. Bibby has been exposes by every team we have played in the playoffs.

Smoove-- He can't shoot and other teams know this. Defensively he can't guard other SF's. He is undisciplined. As a power forward he should have some type of post game but he doesn't. He has no mid range game either.Dunks or layups but he gets outplayed by Joe Smith. Why he won't play to his strengths is beyond me. He can't effectively play pf or sf. Common sense should be telling him "hey dummy they left us open again because we can't shoot". Last year we got on Marv for not driving to the basket but this year he does and draws the foul. Smoove still settles for the jumper. I haven't seen any of those "dream moves" he supposedly worked on a few years ago. I haven't seen nary a sign of any kind of improvement in that regard.

Now either Smith or Bibby needs to go. Here is a list of free agent both restricted and un restricted for pgs, sg, pf, centers.

Point Guards

Unrestricted Free Agents

* Jason Kidd

* Mike Bibby

* Andre Miller

* Stephon Marbury

* Jason Hart

* Brevin Knight

* Smush Parker

* Ronald Murray

* Marcus Williams

* Jacque Vaughn

* Lindsey Hunter

* Anthony Carter

* Kevin Ollie

* Quincy Douby

* Mike Wilks

Restricted Free Agents

* Ramon Sessions

* Raymond Felton

* Nate Robinson

* Luther Head

* Jarrett Jack

Shooting Guards

Unrestricted Free Agents

* Allen Iverson

* Wally Szczerbiak

* Bobby Jackson

* Ben Gordon

* Desmond Mason

* Anthony Parker

* Damon Jones

* Keith Bogans

* Rodney Carney

* Ronnie Price

* Morris Almond

* Maurice Ager

* Gerald Green

* James Singleton

* Dahntay Jones

* Von Wafer

* Shannon Brown

* Quinton Ross

* Kareem Rush

* Juan Dixon

Restricted Free Agents

* Rashad McCants

* Joey Graham

* Linas Kleiza

* Carlos Delfino (If he returns from overseas

Power Forwards

Unrestricted Free Agents

* Rasheed Wallace

* Malik Rose

* Drew Gooden

* Chris Wilcox

* Stromile Swift

* Joe Smith

* Shelden Williams

* Maceo Baston

* Cedric Simmons

* Juwon Howard

* Chris Anderson

* Steve Novak

* Donyell Marshall

* Ryan Bowen

* Michael Ruffin

* Shavlik Randolph

Restricted Free Agents

* Charlie Villanueva

* Channing Frye

* Hakim Warrick

* David Lee

* Leon Powe

* Glen Davis

* Aaron Gray

* Brandon Bass

* Paul Millsap

Centers

Unrestricted Free Agents

* Raef LaFrentz

* Radoslav Nesterovic

* Jason Collins

* Zaza Pachulia

* Robert Swift

* Chris Mihm

* Saer Sene

* Jarron Collins

* Didier Ilunga-Mbenga

* Calvin Booth

* Melvin Ely

* Ryan Hollins

* Lorenzen Wright

* Adonal Foyle

* Jamaal Magloire

* Sean Marks

* Theo Ratliff

* Patrick O'Bryant

* Jake Voskuhl

* Dikembe Mutombo

Restricted Free Agents

* Johan Petro

Early Termination Options

* Zydrunas Ilgauskas

* Eddy Curry--We know he isn't getting out of that contract for nothing in the world.

* Mehmet Okur

* Mark Blount

* Etan Thomas

* Jerome James

* Kwame Brown

* Steven Hunter

* Francisco Elson

I keep hearing about bringing in this guy and that guy but you have to think about the dynamics of the team. Replacing Bibby with Ben Gordon won't help the problem as it would kill ball movement as he and JJ would become a black hole. If we did do that then Smoove would definitely have to go due to his lack of desire to really hit the board.

Bibby-needs to be replaced I think that Jarrett Jack would be a good fit for us if Acie won't be given the keys to the team. Bibby has his pluses but defensively we can't afford him anymore. Teams are going after him. HE is the weak link. We need more assists out of the pg spot. We have too many players that can finish but they are not being given the ball in good spots. Bibs is a shot first pg. If we spread some of those shots around maybe Smoove-Horf-Marv can add 2-3 more points to their averages.

JJ-good but we can't put too much burden on him because he can't handle it. JJ was playing 40 minutes a game way before he came to Atlanta. Will need to cut his minutes by 5-6 next season.

Marvin- I think that Marv is a keeper but the only reason I would see moving him would be if we got a 2-guard and moved JJ to SF Rarely takes a bad shot. Can make the most out of the fewest shots. Has gotten better every year.

Smoove-needs to be replaced can't play SF refuses to play PF. Takes bad shots even though there is a clear path to the lane. Doesn't use his athletic ability on defense. Has spurts when he looks great. What do you do with a guy like this??

Horf-he is a little undersized but he is a banger. Can play PF if we can get a decent center.

JJ-Marv-Horford should be the nucleus. How many more years are we going to ask ourselves if Smoove will ever get it. There are some decent free agents out there and we could build up our bench. But Woody would have to play them.

Acie LAw-I am all for letting his run the team. I think that he needs extensive minutes. Acie/Flip/West can man the pg spot. Each one brings something different. But either way under no circumstances should we go into next season with Mike Bibby as our starting point guard. This is the one move or change that we have to make no matter what!!

Edited May 11, 2009 by Wurider05

[AHF]

How many more years are we going to ask ourselves if Smoove will ever get it.

I give him 2 years under a new coach before cutting him loose in something less than a Chris Bosh type of deal.

[coachx]

I give him 2 years under a new coach before cutting him loose in something less than a Chris Bosh type of deal.

Agreed !

Agreed. He is too talented to give away unless its for a no brainer like Bosh.

Stiffest competion for Bosh will be the Bulls. Some combo of Hinrich, Salmons, Deng, Noah, Thomas,and B Miller's expiring deal will be offered for Bosh.

The Pistons and Heat want him but have little to offer. Deals centering around Prince or Beasley are not as good as one centerd around Smith.

We need to keep Chris Bosh and Derrick Rose away from each other another as much as we need Bosh for ourselves.

Edited May 11, 2009 by coachx

[DeacKillsaDevil]

You think Toronto would trade Bosh for Smoove?

[AHF]

You think Toronto would trade Bosh for Smoove?

I think Toronto is going to scramble to find the best deal out there for Bosh if he tells them he is walking after this season. Losing him for nothing as an UFA would really hurt them.

Josh Smith is the sort of player I think they could land - young, exciting, high upside, but not as productive as Bosh.

[frankthetank966]

There are a lot of awesome guards available via free-agency. Ben Gordon, Jack, Robinson...

[DrReality]

Smoove, Acie and whatever else and we would come out smelling like a rose. Worth a shot. And I would not deconstruct the Hawks any further than that without getting someone to coach them first.

[GameTime]

An ideal offseason for us would be Fire Woody (Hire a coach that can run an offense specifically fast-paced if possible), get rid of Bibby, get Kidd and Birdman, and get some more shooters that can play D.

[CavalierObserver]

I think you guys should go for Andre Miller over Jason Kidd. You definitely need to find a center but I don't see Bosh being traded in the offseason unless it's for a franchise-type player like Joe Johnson AND picks.

It will be an interesting offseason in 2010 and teams won't be spending much money this offseason because of both the economy and the level of talent compared to 2010. I honestly believe LeBron will stay in Cleveland and I know that they are going to push for a second superstar player at a max contract. Radio stations in Cleveland report that bosh is their favorite option.

To all of you that are upset with your coach.. Many Cleveland fans were very very unhappy with Mike Brown in his early years. As most of you should know, Mike Brown is a defensive minded coach. Anyway, his offense was extraordinarily bad and it often consisted of LeBron standing at the top of the arc, getting a pick and roll, and either going to the hoop or hitting a perimeter shooter. It was bad because there was no off the ball movement and we didn't have the perimeter shooters that we do right now. The point is that once the coach can get in the right players that fit the system then it will all begin to click. You have the nucleus of talent- you just need to wait it out and get the right role players

Edited May 11, 2009 by CavalierObserver

[buckeye242424]

I think you guys should go for Andre Miller over Jason Kidd. You definitely need to find a center but I don't see Bosh being traded in the offseason unless it's for a franchise-type player like Joe Johnson AND picks.

It will be an interesting offseason in 2010 and teams won't be spending much money this offseason because of both the economy and the level of talent compared to 2010. I honestly believe LeBron will stay in Cleveland and I know that they are going to push for a second superstar player at a max contract. Radio stations in Cleveland report that bosh is their favorite option.

To all of you that are upset with your coach.. Many Cleveland fans were very very unhappy with Mike Brown in his early years. As most of you should know, Mike Brown is a defensive minded coach. Anyway, his offense was extraordinarily bad and it often consisted of LeBron standing at the top of the arc, getting a pick and roll, and either going to the hoop or hitting a perimeter shooter. It was bad because there was no off the ball movement and we didn't have the perimeter shooters that we do right now. The point is that once the coach can get in the right players that fit the system then it will all begin to click. You have the nucleus of talent- you just need to wait it out and get the right role players

Mike Brown has something that the Hawks don't...number 23.

I think we have a good start with the players we have...what we don't have is a system in which to fit. Woody has got to go.

[AUhawksfan]

The one thing we need is clear: a leader. That doesn't mean a superstar, but we need a veteran player to be a positive force in the locker room for us. I have seen our players get too pissy this year's playoffs (especially Bibby and Joe) and not be a stable, calm leader when we've needed it most. If we could find somebody with an ounce of character as this guy (read article below) I'd be extremely happy. I think players are more willing to listen to other players that have "been there done that" before as opposed to coaches. Woodson is not the type of guy that is going to get his players to listen to him when he's been preaching the same thing since he got here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/sto...=090511/billups

It's going to take a certain player to get in Josh's face when he shoots an ill-advised jumper.

It's going to take a certain player to get his teammates to trust each other and move the ball instead of playing 1 on 1 ball.

It's going to take a certain player to pump up his team before a big game.

It's said when Horford is one of the more vocal leaders on our team and he has only been with us for 2 years.

Edited May 11, 2009 by AUhawksfan

[coachx]

but I don't see Bosh being traded in the offseason unless it's for a franchise-type player like Joe Johnson AND picks.

Do you know the history of the Toronto Raptors ? No allstar that has ever played for them has wanted to stay in Canada through the prime years of their careers. These are their previous allstars who wanted out after their first contract:

1. Vince Carter

2. Tracy McGrady

3. Marcus Camby

4. Damon Stoudemire

Now Shawn Marion wants out too after 1/2 a season.

History tells us that no allstar wants to spend the prime years of their careers in Canada. So basically Bosh will walk next off season and Toronto will get nothing in return or they will shop for the best possible deal before next seasons trade deadline to avoid losing Bosh for nothing.

Bosh went to Georgia Tech, in Atlanta, so there is reason to think he already likes the city of Atlanta so he may want to sign an extension in Atlanta.

Edited May 11, 2009 by coachx

[AHF]

History tells us that no allstar wants to spend the prime years of their careers in Canada. So basically Bosh will walk next off season and Toronto will get nothing in return or they will shop for the best possible deal before next seasons trade deadline to avoid losing Bosh for nothing.

I don't know that Atlanta will be where Bosh wants to go, but Toronto is going to have to take a discount for Bosh or risk losing him for nothing, IMO.

[Atlantaholic]

I think Toronto is going to scramble to find the best deal out there for Bosh if he tells them he is walking after this season. Losing him for nothing as an UFA would really hurt them.

Josh Smith is the sort of player I think they could land - young, exciting, high upside, but not as productive as Bosh.

We would have to include something else besides Josh... If we traded Josh and Marvin for Bosh and Ukic/Parke???

It would have to be a deal like that I would imagine.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[AHF]

We would have to include something else besides Josh...

No doubt for this offseason (although what else, I am not sure). If you are talking about a deadline deal next year, that would largely depend on what else is out there and what both Bosh and Josh do next season so that is a bit too hard to predict.

Who would have thought that LA could get a certain big man from Memphis for what they did?

[CavalierObserver]

Bosh is the only thing that the Raptor's franchise has and you're telling me they will trade him just so they don't lose him? With the amount of cap room that they should be able to offer two max contracts in the 2010 free agency. I get that you really want Bosh and you'd love to trade a large pizza and Mo Evans for him but Colangelo isn't stupid- it's going to cost a lot. If they trade their franchise they are going to want a lot in return- not Josh Smith. No offense to the Josh Smith lovers but he isn't a franchise player.

I imagine people in NY are saying that the Cavs should trade LeBron for David Lee and Nate Robinson because LeBron is going to leave in 2010 anyway. Just as Cleveland won't trade LeBron, other teams won't trade away their franchise player unlessit's dire and they will certainly get great players back.

[CavalierObserver]

No doubt for this offseason (although what else, I am not sure). If you are talking about a deadline deal next year, that would largely depend on what else is out there and what both Bosh and Josh do next season so that is a bit too hard to predict.

Who would have thought that LA could get a certain big man from Memphis for what they did?

That's a good point about the LAL-MEM trade but that's a unique circumstance. They were looking to dump cap. Toronto has no reason to trade Bosh for salary reasons since he is becoming a free agent next season anyway. Besides, a trade that monumentally bad happens once in a generation.

[gsuteke]

With the new hand check rules we need a PG and an offensive system way more than a Center.

[AHF]

That's a good point about the LAL-MEM trade but that's a unique circumstance. They were looking to dump cap. Toronto has no reason to trade Bosh for salary reasons since he is becoming a free agent next season anyway. Besides, a trade that monumentally bad happens once in a generation.

The KG trade for then unproven Al Jefferson was on par with a Bosh/Smith trade, IMO. Now, Smith may not be the guy that the Raptors want but they are going to have to try to trade Bosh for a young stud that is not on Bosh's level and the question is who is out there. Bosh will walk after next season so their hand is forced.

Who can they get that comes to mind? Here are some of the players that could be potential trade partners in my mind:

Caron Butler

OJ Mayo

Michael Beasley

Josh Smith

Rudy Gay

Al Horford

Amare Stoudamire

Emeka Okafor

Guys like LaMarcus Aldridge or Blake Griffin don't get offered for Bosh, IMO. Bosh is an unrestricted FA after next year which means he is more expensive and older so any comparable talent that is cheaper and younger doesn't get offered.

For the other guys on the list, and anyone else people can think of, I am sure most would be available for Bosh but I doubt all would. Not all teams would be willing to give these kinds of players and assume a long-term maximum deal for Bosh after his injury issues and limited success in Toronto.

I think the market for Bosh would be very active but there is no way in the world that Toronto gets fair value for him, IMO. They are working under a deadline to move him by the trade deadline next season so their leverage is not very high.

[MrNique]

I think the market for Bosh would be very active but there is no way in the world that Toronto gets fair value for him, IMO. They are working under a deadline to move him by the trade deadline next season so their leverage is not very high.

I agree with this. I bet interest is high, but I think Josh Smith as a starting point is as good as it's going to get. If we could get away with a Smith/Law as someone else said, that would be amazing. I fear the offer would have to grow to include Evans at the least, Marvin at the most to get it done.

The only worry is, as others have said, is that our two stars Joe and Bosh would be up in the same year. It would make extending Joe a must, and convincing Bosh would be a huge plus as well. Even if Joe is a commodity we look to trade in a year or whatever, we still need him under contract so we wouldn't put ourselves in a position to lose two players like that.

If we assume we can get it done with a Smith/Evans (and a pick?) we wouldn't be in horrible place, but still thin:

PG

I'm in the camp for resigning Bibby for less money. And we draft best PG available (Teague at #19?) for his back-up minutes. Law whether in the above trade or not seems to be done in Atlanta. Sessions is an interesting choice here though if we couldn't get Bibby. Seems like Bucks can't afford both him and Villanueva, but they can match so he's scary. Players like Felton don't seem attractive to me.

SG/SF

If we retain Joe and Marvin in the above scenario, we have no one backing them up now. Murray I think might bolt in free agency. Do we bring Chill back? Probably not. I would love to get Gerald Wallace here, but I don't think we have the pieces. Otherwise, we get some swing players cheap. Gerald Green?

PF/C

Bosh and Horford is studly, but still small. It might be nice to somehow convince Wallace to come be our defensive veteran enforcer behind Al and Chris, but that might be even more wishful thinking than the Bosh trade. What else? Resign Zaza? Bring Anderson over? I'd like to bring Hunter back for another year, regardless.

Getting more TOUGH SIZE is the problem? Free agents:

Varejao will be to rich for our blood, probably stays in Cleveland anyway.

Wallace/McDyess end up on veteren "contenders" like San Antonio or something.

Bass and Chris Anderson - not centers, and probably too rich for us considering the interest that will be there

Wilcox? Boring.

Nesterovic and Etan Thomas? Boring bigs. Magliore too.

David Lee and Gortat are two restricted's that will have a lot of interest. Problem is, they will have a lot of interest and might be overpaid this year.

I still think getting Bosh would be worth it. Everyone has trouble getting bigs, not just us.

JR

(Finally broke my two season lurk and posted. This is an important off-season for this team. The next 5 years are on the line.)