Definitive answer on Hawks cap space for next year

[Guest]

Great! Thanks for posting this information. I have the same understanding as you do on the situation.

Still, can these players be bundled with other players? - My understanding is no, but again, there seems to be some confusion here.

You mean could we trade someone with a player that we are doing an SnT with? Yes it is allowed, but I can't think of a recent example to support my claim. Generally, there isn't much incentive to take on the extra player in an outgoing trade. The better solution to a situation involving a BYC is bringing in a 3rd team.

I think what you are thinking about was when we did the SnT with Harrington. The issue with that was the TPE, you cannot combine that with players. So for example I believe the TPE was for something like $7.5 mil. Harrington's salary needed to start at $7.5 mil for that SnT to work because Indiana was over the cap. Indiana was not permitted to send us any additional players to be able to offer more money to Harrington because the TPE cannot be combined with player's to allow this.

[mrhonline]

My read on this is that Marvin's 2009 salary was: $5,636,142

If he signs a new contract starting at more than $6,763,370 then he would be a BYC player.

Interesting.

Marvin's QO: $7.355M

Marvin's BYC threshold: $6.763M

Pretty close numbers. I think a S&T is at least plausible.

A five-year deal starting at $6.75M with 10.5% raises would equal $40.8M ($8M per). A six-year deal would equal $51.1M ($8.5M per).

It's close, but I think we should plan on him being BYC.

[NJHAWK]

Interesting.

Marvin's QO: $7.355M

Marvin's BYC threshold: $6.763M

Pretty close numbers. I think a S&T is at least plausible.

A five-year deal starting at $6.75M with 10.5% raises would equal $40.8M ($8M per). A six-year deal would equal $51.1M ($8.5M per).

It's close, but I think we should plan on him being BYC.

Well that back injury could bring his value down to that number.

[frosgrim]

You mean could we trade someone with a player that we are doing an SnT with? Yes it is allowed, but I can't think of a recent example to support my claim. Generally, there isn't much incentive to take on the extra player in an outgoing trade. The better solution to a situation involving a BYC is bringing in a 3rd team.

I think what you are thinking about was when we did the SnT with Harrington. The issue with that was the TPE, you cannot combine that with players. So for example I believe the TPE was for something like $7.5 mil. Harrington's salary needed to start at $7.5 mil for that SnT to work because Indiana was over the cap. Indiana was not permitted to send us any additional players to be able to offer more money to Harrington because the TPE cannot be combined with player's to allow this.

Yes! That is what I was getting confused. Thanks for clearing that up.

This is a great thread. Hope people will use before posting unrealistic stuff in the forum.

[DrReality]

Sund is going to earn his pay this summer.

[coachx]

Looks like this would help take the guessing out of the FA cap holds. This dude seems to know his stuff. Not sure if he is a poster on here.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=815375

- Restricted:

10,894,937 Josh Childress (300% of his last salary, $3,631,646 was lower than the MLE)

14,090,355 Marvin Williams (250% of his 08-09 salary, $5,636,142 being higher than the MLE)

Marvin cap hold can be lower than that since it can't exceed the Max salary the player can signed, which was 13,758,000 this year for a 4 years veteran, and would likely be almost 14.5M without the economic problem, but it could be lower this summer (max salary are also based on the projected BRI, like the salary cap).

Marvin estimated cap hold: 13,500,000

- Unrestricted:

19,000,000 Bibby (estimated) (Bird rights, 150% of his last salary, 14,983,603 being over the MLE, but can't exceed the 10+ years max salary for 2009-10 that should be almost $19M)

08,000,000 Pachulia (Bird rights, 200% of last salary, 4,000,000 being lower than the MLE)

01,800,000 Murray (Non-Bird rights, 120% of his last salary, 1,500,000)

01,595,162 Jones (Bird rights after 3 years under contract in ATL, 200% of last salary, 797,581 being lower than the MLE)

00,825,497 West (Minimum salary, so cap hold is the part not reimbursed = 2 years veteran minimum)

00,825,497 Gardner (same)

00,825,497 Hunter (same)

Edited May 15, 2009 by coachx

[Guest]

coachx, that guy seems to have everything correct (assuming those are the numbers of each player's previous salary). I stay away from realgm since it is unbelievably obnoxious over there. 2 out of every 3 posts is something to the effect of:

Outgoing:

X, Y, Z

Incoming:

A,B,C

Why they do it: some lame explanation

[then a tag of the trade through the realgm trade checker so you can see its "valid"]

I can't stand seeing mindless dribble like that.

Edit: I looked at that guys post, and he did have a mistake that I corrected him on. If you can't tell by now I think realgm is a site full of morons with a few highly intelligent people sprinkled in.

Edited May 15, 2009 by hawksfanatic

[DJlaysitup]

Acie Law 2,216,160

OMG

[Hawk88]

Players under Contract

Joe Johnson 14,976,754

Josh Smith 10,800,000

Speedy Claxton 5,209,454

Marvin Williams 7,355,166 (caphold)

Al Horford 4,307,640

Maurice Evans 2,500,000

Acie Law 2,216,160

Randolph Morris 855,189

#19 Pick 1,144,900

Total 49,365,243

This year's cap number = 58,680,000

If the cap stayed flat the Hawks would be $9,314,757 under.

The Hawks would need to sign 6 players to round out the roster. A player like Mario West would cost them $855,189. That's 2,565,567 for 3 of them. I'm not sure if these players can be signed though the MLE. If so we've got another 2.5 million to spend on a FA. If not......

That leaves us 6,749,190 under the cap. That's the approximate amount we'd have to sign a player outright before paying Zaza and Flip.

Childress' caphold may screw it all up.

Bottom line is we need to move Childress' rights this offseason if we want to sign anyone outright. If we're going to resign Marvin to a deal more than 5 yrs 40 million we'll need to do it after bringing in a free agent.

Pachulia, Murray and Bibby or his replacement would need to be resigned.

If anyone has anything to add or clarify please feel free to do so.

Marvin is not worht 7+ million a year.

Hawk88

[AHF]

Please focus on the issue of capspace here. There are plenty of threads to make value arguments. This is not one of them. This one is about cap mechanics.

[gsuteke]

Please focus on the issue of capspace here. There are plenty of threads to make value arguments. This is not one of them. This one is about cap mechanics.

Sometimes it's hard to see the forest - the trees get in the way.

[bronnt]

I'm not sure how the caphold for the draft pick works-are we already on the hook for his salary even before we sign him? Or do we have the flexibility to sign, say, Mario West to another minimum deal before the draft?

Also, can you trade a BYC in a deal involving draft picks?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

coachx, that guy seems to have everything correct (assuming those are the numbers of each player's previous salary). I stay away from realgm since it is unbelievably obnoxious over there. 2 out of every 3 posts is something to the effect of:

I can't stand seeing mindless dribble like that.

Edit: I looked at that guys post, and he did have a mistake that I corrected him on. If you can't tell by now I think realgm is a site full of morons with a few highly intelligent people sprinkled in.

You mean like this?

Hawks trade Speedy Claxton and Mo Evans to Chicago . . for Kirk Hinrich ( who will be under contract until 2012, at about 8.83 mill/yr ) . . trade works under RealGM trade checker.

Reason for the Hawks: Hawks need a PG that can run a team, plus play defense at the point. Hinrich can also knock down a few outside shots if need be, plus get to the hole. Offensively, he wouldn't take shots away from JJ, Smith, or even Marvin, if we re-signed him. Hinrich can also play and defend the 2 spot, which may enable a guy like Acie Law to get more PT at the point, even when paired with Hinrich in the backcourt.

Reason for the Bulls: Trade enables Chicago to potentially get an additional 5+ million off the books by 2010, to make a run at a big time free agent. Hinrich is owed 26+ million in the next 3 years. Rose is the starting PG. Possibility of Eric Maynor, Johnny Flynn, Ty Lawson, or Jeff Teague being available for Chicago at #16, instantly gives the Bulls a chance to replace Hinrich at the PG spot. Evans gives Bulls an additional 3 point threat coming off the bench, and he can adequately defend 2 positions.

[Guest]

You mean like this?

Yup, maybe not the same exact structure because they usually have some tags about Outgoing PPG, APG, RPG, etc. and the Incoming PPG... but the exact same concept.

Also, the person who replied to you gave basically the same reply you might see on RealGM. Someone quotes you (and it says northcyde at the top of the quote) and then later on in the post they call you by another username (coachx in this instance) even though they are clearly two different posters with different ideas. Those kind of posts drive me crazy because they are absolutely pointless and usually full of errors (grammatically, spelling, logical, etc.). I learned after a while to ignore those because if I read them I end up wanting to respond and the response usually doesn't come out so nice.

Also after looking a little bit more carefully at that RealGM post about our salary information and there are more than a few errors. He also has trouble understanding what I am telling him is wrong with his information. There are really intelligent people on the website, but the majority aren't and its frustrating. Thanks to the founders of Hawksquawk where you there can actually be intelligent conversations about the Hawks.

[Guest]

I'm not sure how the caphold for the draft pick works-are we already on the hook for his salary even before we sign him?

Good question. We actually aren't on the hook for his salary before we sign him. Before we sign him, we just have a roster charge of the rookie minimum. However we are bound to his salary because of the rookie scale. But in the situation where we renounce everyone to try and create cap space, we could wait to sign our draft pick and that would be a way of free up more cap space.

Or do we have the flexibility to sign, say, Mario West to another minimum deal before the draft?

You don't need cap space to sign someone to a minimum deal, so I don't see how that would be an issue at all.

Also, can you trade a BYC in a deal involving draft picks?

Yes, draft picks count as 0 salary until you sign them so you have to adjust accordingly.

[Joker]

There are some posters here who are just bad. Some even have over a thousand posts and you have no idea who they are. There are a lot of posters here, all with different opinions and incite which is valuable to the fabric of our community. There are some just like in real life, who do the status quo and no one knows or even cares about whom they are. To be honest, they are nobodies, often finding themselves as a shell of what they really want to be. They do not standout, their life journey can be the described like this "There just here to be here." As for a life goal, there isn't one, they are just average, that is who they are, and that's what they live for. Nothing else should be spoken about these types of people. I think I've said eight sentences too much, which is more attention then these people usually receive. Now I will go back to what I was doing which was listening to "Jay-Z- There's Been A Murder."

Edited May 17, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[Wurider05]

Anyone who saw Mo Evans let Lebron walk by him and saw Mo Evans allow Lebron to roam free on defense because Mo is no offensive threat at all, should not think the Marvin Williams experiment is over.

These clowns who want to get rid of Marvin must not see the things the rest of us see. I can just see Smoove trying to guard Lebron in the playoffs next year. He would average 50 a game.