Who's Team Is It?

[PureGreatness]

Im reading some post about trading Joe and Smith and some folks said barkley and the crew said some things about us hawks. i found the quote

Barkley on the Atlanta Hawks: “Their top three, four or five players do nothing but shoot jumpers. They need to sign a big guy to make the game easier…They have to make a decision who’s team it is, whether it’s Joe Johnson or Josh Smith…They’ve got to make a decision on which one of those guys they are going to build around.”

I know we don't care about what barkley says but he is correct. Under woodson joe will be our got to guy. its proven when woodson said he played joe 40 just to make him got to the all star game. WTF but anyways

Joes main problem is he plays with no heart, not a leader and is shut down by double teams to easily and shoots too low a percentage. getting shut down by double teams

Joshes main problem is he cant shoot(even though he thinks he can) , complains too damn much and BBIQ.

just because one is a franchise player doesnt mean the other has to get traded.

Lets be real, the asg is not going to fire woodson because they are cheap and we damn sure are not going to get bosh or amare not because we dont want them but because i think teams will have better offers.

((let the debate begin!!))

Edited May 13, 2009 by hoodstar

[TheTruth]

I will be really, really quick so I can go to bed:

Joe is NOT a franchise player. We have turned a natural #2 option into a #1...and as long as that remains the case we will never go very far.

Barkley IS right. None of our starters are known as players who take it to the rim on a consistent basis. Marvin does at times (and has done a more admirable job of it this year), Smoove falls in love with his broken jump shot, and Horford needs to develop his inside game quite a bit more. Our PG does nothing but shoot jumpers, and Joe usually does more often than not. This is another problem.

This team needs a real leader...a player who everyone can look to and someone who will get in our players' grills to demand excellence. I like Joe, but Joe is way too quiet to be our go-to-guy and "foundation" of our team. We need someone who will be vocal and command the troops. Flip seems to do that, but Flip is no starter. Horford appears to want it, but he has to elevate his game a considerable amount before he gets total respect.

Here are some bottom lines:

1) We need to fix our lack of coaching before we see any REAL improvement within the team. Whether that is by hiring some offensive coordinator type or just firing Woodson, one of the two will have to happen to mitigate our poor coaching.

2) We need a REAL #1. Joe is nice and all, but he is NOT someone you can count on to step up when the lights shine brightest (ex. playoffs). That doesnt mean get rid of Joe...it just means get someone so that Joe can be a COMPLEMENT. Keep him and nab someone to be the real go-to-guy. Unfortunately, this is much easier said than done. And even if we did, Woodson would probably STILL make Joe the go-to-guy...

3) I like Josh. I think that he can be a perennial all-star if he ever allowed his brain to catch up with his athleticism and talent. He may be young, but he has been in the league for what, 5 years now?..odds and history say that he will not magically wake up next season as the second coming of Elton Brand (sans ridiculous injury history) or something.

In other words, in a perfect world, this would be NEITHER dude's team. Joe is no fundamental piece and Josh is too inconsistent (and lacks leadership) to be that piece. Josh, in my humble opinion, HAS to be traded for a bona fide Center to help fix our starting rotation. I will go into reasons later, but it may have come to this.

Edited May 13, 2009 by TheTruth

[Diesel]

Let me just say this...

I've read your post, but to answer your title...

Josh Smith is too unstable to build a team around. He lacks the maturity and the BBIQ to be built around. Not going to college and having a coach who is not a natural teacher has really left Josh to learn how to play on his playstation. That's why he lacks patience. That's why he believes that he's right most of the time. He defiantly shoots the ill advised shot because he believes he's right to shoot it. He needs an overhaul. That means new coaching, new role, attitude adjustment, but most importantly, he needs to be taught the game.

[buckeye242424]

Let me just say this...

I've read your post, but to answer your title...

Josh Smith is too unstable to build a team around. He lacks the maturity and the BBIQ to be built around. Not going to college and having a coach who is not a natural teacher has really left Josh to learn how to play on his playstation. That's why he lacks patience. That's why he believes that he's right most of the time. He defiantly shoots the ill advised shot because he believes he's right to shoot it. He needs an overhaul. That means new coaching, new role, attitude adjustment, but most importantly, he needs to be taught the game.

I agree here. Smoove is not mature enough, or smart enough to put it bluntly to carry the label as "leader". That being said, I'm not sure JJ exhibits are the characteristics of other players we consider "leaders" of NBA teams. He's not vocal, he's subdued, and passive. Talent wise, JJ has the tools. It's the mental task of leading during TO's, at halftime - get in the faces of other players. Bibby has shown flashes, with his questioning of Woody and how he uses Smoove. I think Bibs is seeing that Joe isn't capable of being viewed as the team leader, and if he resigns, I bet we see a more assertive point guard next year.

[Diesel]

I agree here. Smoove is not mature enough, or smart enough to put it bluntly to carry the label as "leader". That being said, I'm not sure JJ exhibits are the characteristics of other players we consider "leaders" of NBA teams. He's not vocal, he's subdued, and passive. Talent wise, JJ has the tools. It's the mental task of leading during TO's, at halftime - get in the faces of other players. Bibby has shown flashes, with his questioning of Woody and how he uses Smoove. I think Bibs is seeing that Joe isn't capable of being viewed as the team leader, and if he resigns, I bet we see a more assertive point guard next year.

For Joe's role (as we see in other players) you don't need to be vocal. You need to be competitive.. which Joe is plenty...

However, how vocal is Kobe? People say Kobe rarely talks... He doesn't spend a lot of time with his teammates.

How Vocal was Jordan? Jordan was the leader of the Bulls on the floor, but he didn't do it by talking. He wasn't the guy who spoke out and motivated.

You're trying to make JJ = Barkley. That's all well and good, but JJ is not a Barkley or a Wade. JJ is the quiet guy who just plays hard and leads by example. What we need here is that guy who will help JJ with the points and we need about 2 vet guys who will just jump into people's chest in the lockerroom and the huddle. We are very undisciplined because we're young and we don't have any vet leaders. Remember, we used to have Lorenzen Wright for that role. He sucked on the floor, but in the lockerroom, he and chillz were outspoken guys.

Some guys who would be good for the task are:

Chauncey Billups - Probably will retire in his hometown of Denver.

Derrick Fisher - I can't see him not being a Laker.

Chris Paul - The captain. Dudes fall in line at his word.

KG - If there's one guy you will follow it's the big ticket.

Jason Kidd - After years of waiting.

Jameer Nelson - The magic will be special when he comes back.

Derrick Rose - During the Chicago Boston Series, I saw this kid running the show like a vet.

Steve Nash - The old man and the river.

I say if you want that fix.

let's think about getting Chillz back and I would wonder what we would look like with either Kidd or Andre Miller running the Point. We can keep Bibs but I would bring in another PG (Brevin Knight). I would bring in Knight to help Acie assume leadership and help provide us with leadership. I would use other resources to get a big.

[JackB1]

The problem we face is that building around either Joe or Smoove are both flawed.

Smoove lacks a brain and will never "get it" and Joe lacks fire, desire and leadership skills.

Either isn't the ideal guy to "build around". We really need a blockbuster deal to get that

"guy" to build around. Keep Horford, Marvin and Bibby and Zaza and everyone else is dealable.

[Diesel]

The problem we face is that building around either Joe or Smoove are both flawed.

Smoove lacks a brain and will never "get it" and Joe lacks fire, desire and leadership skills.

Either isn't the ideal guy to "build around". We really need a blockbuster deal to get that

"guy" to build around. Keep Horford, Marvin and Bibby and Zaza and everyone else is dealable.

Nah...

Joe is not a problem. Just because he's not kobe doesn't mean that he's a problem. Joe spent most of the playoffs in a doubleteam whereas our coaches wisdom said do not double their star. Joe has fire, he just doesn't have the ability to put this whole team on his shoulders. He's not Nique. But hell, who is? It takes a really selfish player to do what Nique did. For all of you all who are re-writing the times with Nique and giving people the glorified version, let me be the true dispenser here. Nique was just about everything that Kobe has been accused of being. Nique was a ball hog. I remember, we used to talk about "Niquing" the ball on the hardtops. Nique didn't play defense. When Jordan would come to town, they'd have their on little dunk contest and Nique would wait at the top of the key so he can be first down on the break. Nique didn't pass much. What really made Nique, Moses, and Theus fail was the fact that Nique would need to share the ball and Moses was just as big a ball hog as Nique. However, the good that came out of it was that Nique never feared the pressure of being the man and that Nique crushed double teams (until he got old and he and Kevin Willis would shoot threes). Smitty wasn't that... and JJ won't be that. JJ has done more for this team than Smitty did. Smitty never was the leader of this team like JJ has had to be. Smitty didn't get constantly doubled. First and foremost, we ran a motion offense during the Smitty years and Mookie was always there to be primary scorer.

So we don't have to blow up the team and trade away our three time allstar to be good. We need to get a complimentary scorer (preferably a post player)... because your idea to build around Horf, Marvin??? That will fail. You have to realize, we didn't get all of those picks for them to be franchise players. Some of them, we knew would be used to attract better players. Joe has a place on this team as long as he wants to be here!

[RedDawg#8]

according to woody, its joe's team. however seeing joe the past few years, it always seems like he wants somebody else to take the lead. remember his comments when bibby first came here, he basically said now we have somebody who can take control so i dont have to.

jos is very talented but he isnt on par wit the nba superstars who woody wants to compare him to. it ironic this topic came up because ive been thinking about this for days.

smith for the previously stated reasons couldnt be the leader. but if he can just "get it" one day, no doubt he can be.

imo, i think marvin could be that guy for us, but only if woody can get over lettin joe do it all. marvin has the bball i.q. he is the one guy you can honestly say never takes a bad shot. he plays "real" defense, not that blind weakside block stuff smith does. when his number is called, he usually delivers for us. he is the only guy who consistenlty drives the ball (when healthy). his one weakness is assists. but i attribute this more to the fact that when he gets the ball its usually the last option as every one else tried their look and he has to bail us out on the possession by getting to the line or shooting a jumper. this year he avg. about 10 shot attempts a game. joe avg 18 attempts. if woody can get marv up to about 15 and joe down to that number, i think hell have alot better numbers. ppl say he doesnt assert himself on offense, but how can he when his number is never called. next to joe, he has the best all around game on the team, and on top of that, he has won a championship in his time. he was drafted to be a superstar one day, and i truly think it could happen. woody has to let go of his vision for joe and begin to hand the reigns over.

sorry for the long post

[PureGreatness]

It has to be one of those 2 imo. its unlikely we get bosh or amare imo. I was never that big of a joe fan to be honest, he was too quiet and made it clear that he is a number 2 option not number 1. except for the once in a blue moon lob, theres no plays ran for smith, not even a damn pick n roll smh.

it seems as joe doesnt even want to be the guy.

im not saying trade joe, but joe needs to have his role smaller and smith be the focal point of the offense by posting up, pick n roll, driving to the basket and the oop.

it would also help if we get a penetraitng point guard.

Edited May 13, 2009 by hoodstar

[Diesel]

It has to be one of those 2 imo. its unlikely we get bosh or amare imo. I was never that big of a joe fan to be honest, he was too quiet and made it clear that he is a number 2 option not number 1. except for the once in a blue moon lob, theres no plays ran for smith, not even a damn pick n roll smh.

it seems as joe doesnt even want to be the guy.

im not saying trade joe, but joe needs to have his role smaller and smith be the focal point of the offense by posting up, pick n roll, driving to the basket and the oop.

it would also help if we get a penetraitng point guard.

I think we need to see Joe with complimentary scorers and better coaching before we can make that declaration.

You're talking about Joe. A guy who takes on the other team 1 on 5 with No screen. NO FREAKIN SCREEN. He tries to dribble in traffic and beat two men for scores??? How freakin ludicrous is that??

Unlike Kobe, he doesn't have a Gasol or a Mo Williams or a Oneal... I wouldn't put them on their level but at the same time, if you gave Kobe, Wade, or Lebron our team and our coaching plans.. I would like to see what they come up with. Remember... No screen.

[Diesel]

imo, i think marvin could be that guy for us, but only if woody can get over lettin joe do it all.

Dude... It's called puff, puff, pass. When you get a hold of that good sh!t you're supposed to share that stuff!!!

[PureGreatness]

I think we need to see Joe with complimentary scorers and better coaching before we can make that declaration.

You're talking about Joe. A guy who takes on the other team 1 on 5 with No screen. NO FREAKIN SCREEN. He tries to dribble in traffic and beat two men for scores??? How freakin ludicrous is that??

Unlike Kobe, he doesn't have a Gasol or a Mo Williams or a Oneal... I wouldn't put them on their level but at the same time, if you gave Kobe, Wade, or Lebron our team and our coaching plans.. I would like to see what they come up with. Remember... No screen.

i would like too see both with new coaches. josh with a common sense coach should be a 23-10-2 blocks player and joe should be the same player except less minutes and a higher FG%

but under woodson that wont happen.

Edited May 13, 2009 by hoodstar

[PureGreatness]

reddawg#8 this song is for you

[TheDude]

i disagrree with charles and kenny in that we can only have one...we have both but neither will be the leader...we have a team of

#2s and #3s...

heres what has to happen....bibby not re-signed and that money is used to findsomeone to bring in..simple as that...also difficult as that.

[RedDawg#8]

Dang...thats pretty real fella's.

Seriously tho, my thinking is that we have already given Joe the chance. Since the moment the ink dried on his contract he has had every oppurtunity to lead us, and other than the occasional game, he doesnt do it that well.

Josh has the most potential of anybody on this team period. Even the announcers can se that his skill level has such a high ceiling, but he is so far off because of his decision making right now. How can anybody listen to the guy and take him serious when he consistenly makes poor decisions like trying to lead the break when everybody knows he is the best finisher on the floor. Or pulling up early in the shot clock everytime somebody gives him space even tho his shot isnt falling. On top of that, arguing with refs for evrey call, not always hustling back on defense, arguing with the coach at games (or just tunig him out completely). When he can eliminate those kind of decisions (not likely to happen soon), im sure he can begin to gain a following.

Thats why I said Marvin. Unless we bring in somebody from another team, he and Horf are the only two guys that I can see really having the dedication, discipline, fire, good decision making and talent to lead the team. Marv already showed us in the 2 games Joe missed that he can step up as a scorer.

At the end of the day, there isnt anybody one this team who elevates the play of his team mates. Not even Joe anymore. Our team has become so dependent on individual talent that there leaves little room for a true leader to emerge on the court. If there is room for leadership, it will be courtside and in the locker room. Thats why I say guys like Marv and Horf could step up and be that vocal guy who encourages everyone and tries to pick up the intensity of everybody.

I may seem crazy, but see a leader in Marv. He has just become too comfortable playing the backseat to Joe, Josh, Bib, and Flip. He is still the youngest guy on the roster period, even younger than Horf and Acie, West, Gardner, even Hunter by a month. Think about that. yet:

He is more explosive than Joe

He Shoots better and makes better decisions than Josh

He plays defense unlike Bibby

He has more size than Flip or Evans

He is one of the better rebounding SF's

He doesnt have emotional outburst's

What are the things Woodson asks his player to do every game. Play defense and drive the ball and get to the line on offense. Marv is the ONLY guy who consistently does both.

Give him more time to gain that confidence in himself and we will see him emerge as a leader/go to guy.Think of the leap Danny Granger made. I think if given tha oppurtunity, Marv cold make that same jump in his game.

[AHF]

I like Marvin fine but he is anything but a leader. He is a cog. He likes to fit in and has not demonstrated a shred of leadership ability during his time with the Hawks. His biggest problem is lack of assertiveness on the court. Off the court, we don't see any signs of assertiveness either.

[PureGreatness]

its smith and/or joes team. marvin might not even be here.

[buckeye242424]

Dude... It's called puff, puff, pass. When you get a hold of that good sh!t you're supposed to share that stuff!!!

LOL. "You're Fuc*ing up the rotation"....

[crimedog]

The thing I see with "leaders" is that you can't force a guy who isn't a superstar into that role. Mike was a great "leader" but its mainly because he was so good that no one wanted to piss him off because he had as much pull and power in the league as any GM. Lebron is a great "leader" because he gives you the best shot at a chip and single handidly cover so many holes on the floor (rebounding, passing, scoring, team D) that he allows you to just play your role. Guys who aren't superstars but are great leaders? Well if you read the fantastic Outside The Lines thing on Chauncey Billups, you'll see how his entire career made him what he is today. He evolved into a leader by being around the right guys and facing some tough times in his career, now guys bring him on board because he already is a leader (and a multiple time All-NBAer, but a step down from "superstar"), not in hopes that he can become one.

Joe hasn't shown leadership qualities yet. He might eventually but it won't be because we need him to, it will be because he realizes that he can be one. Josh has shown some good-teamate qualities but he also has some of those flaws that will keep him from being a leader (but if you think complaining to refs is one, I guess you haven't watched Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Kevin Garnett, Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson -- those guys never shut up). Al has some leadership qualities but for a variety of reasons he can't really impose his will on the team, mainly because he isn't good enough and has his own flashes of immaturity. Marv... well Marv is the least likely leader on the team. He's a nice kid, a guy that a real leader would like because he won't stir up trouble, but a) he's passive and b) he's just an average/above average player.

[buckeye242424]

The thing I see with "leaders" is that you can't force a guy who isn't a superstar into that role. Mike was a great "leader" but its mainly because he was so good that no one wanted to piss him off because he had as much pull and power in the league as any GM. Lebron is a great "leader" because he gives you the best shot at a chip and single handidly cover so many holes on the floor (rebounding, passing, scoring, team D) that he allows you to just play your role. Guys who aren't superstars but are great leaders? Well if you read the fantastic Outside The Lines thing on Chauncey Billups, you'll see how his entire career made him what he is today. He evolved into a leader by being around the right guys and facing some tough times in his career, now guys bring him on board because he already is a leader (and a multiple time All-NBAer, but a step down from "superstar"), not in hopes that he can become one.

Joe hasn't shown leadership qualities yet. He might eventually but it won't be because we need him to, it will be because he realizes that he can be one. Josh has shown some good-teamate qualities but he also has some of those flaws that will keep him from being a leader (but if you think complaining to refs is one, I guess you haven't watched Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Kevin Garnett, Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson -- those guys never shut up). Al has some leadership qualities but for a variety of reasons he can't really impose his will on the team, mainly because he isn't good enough and has his own flashes of immaturity. Marv... well Marv is the least likely leader on the team. He's a nice kid, a guy that a real leader would like because he won't stir up trouble, but a) he's passive and b) he's just an average/above average player.

Good post. The one difference about complaining to the refs in regards to Smoove and the HOF's listed above is just that....those guys earned that right in some fashion, through their accomplishments as individuals or through their respected teams. Smoove and the Hawks have done neither.