Acie Law IV

[Wurider05]

Really we don't need Acie to be an all star. We need 10-13 ppg 7-10 apg 1-3 spg 3-5 rbs a game and average to above average defense. I mean alot of you have this all-star or nothing mentality when it comes to our players. We need solid production offensively and defensively from the pg spot.

[MaceCase]

I do not see how the the Law and Smith shave anything in common.

Smith is allowed to play heavy minutes even when he makes mistake. Smith has had 5 years of heavy minutes with little growth over the last 2 seasons.

Law does not get any minutes no matter how he plays. He has had no chance at all to grow as a player.

It's not about playing heavy minutes or little minutes, it's about playing productive minutes. That's a coach's job to make every possesion and minute in the game catered towards a positive goal. Part of what makes that happen is assigning roles to your players and determining situations for them to best succeed. If you throw Josh out there for 37 minutes but don't dictate sets and plays for him you end up with a player just floating around the floor chucking up shots on offense and being out of position on defense. With Acie you have a player that doesn't know what he's meant to do on the court. He's a pg so he needs the ball in his hands to perform that duty but doesn't have the ball in his hands, he's the best defensive point on the team but when he sticks with his man and fights through a pick he's benched. These are all things that hurt players' development, they are in the NBA so they are all talented but it's the coaches job to mold that talent into a system and Woody has failed at that.

[AtLaS]

I do not see how the the Law and Smith shave anything in common.

Smith is allowed to play heavy minutes even when he makes mistake. Smith has had 5 years of heavy minutes with little growth over the last 2 seasons.

Law does not get any minutes no matter how he plays. He has had no chance at all to grow as a player.

I agree, I already made that point earlier.

I was responding to your point about our joke of an offense. I can't blame Smith because the coach lets him do what he wants and won't tell him to stop shooting threes, and not putting him in the best position to succeed. If we get a new coach and Smith refuses to stop after being told, then I will put the onus on him.

[coachx]

It's not about playing heavy minutes or little minutes, it's about playing productive minutes. That's a coach's job to make every possesion and minute in the game catered towards a positive goal. Part of what makes that happen is assigning roles to your players and determining situations for them to best succeed. If you throw Josh out there for 37 minutes but don't dictate sets and plays for him you end up with a player just floating around the floor chucking up shots on offense and being out of position on defense. With Acie you have a player that doesn't know what he's meant to do on the court. He's a pg so he needs the ball in his hands to perform that duty but doesn't have the ball in his hands, he's the best defensive point on the team but when he sticks with his man and fights through a pick he's benched. These are all things that hurt players' development, they are in the NBA so they are all talented but it's the coaches job to mold that talent into a system and Woody has failed at that.

Exactly !

Law had no role. One night 7 minutes, don't play for 2 games, then get 3 minutes one game, then don't play for a game, and then get 15 minutes out of no where. That is more abuse then a role.

Smith had a starting role. Woody wants him to focus on scoring the paint, rebounding , and playing defense. That is his role.

Edited May 29, 2009 by coachx

[Cwell]

Exactly !

Law had no role. One night 7 minutes, don't play for 2 games, then get 3 minutes one game, then don't play for a game, and then get 15 minutes out of no where. That is more abuse then a role.

Smith had a starting role. Woody wants him to focus on scoring the paint, rebounding , and playing defense. That is his role.

yep Law was getting DNPs then when Bibby gets hurt out of nowhere Woody starts Acie (prolly so people could blame him if we lost,which we did)instead of Flip, then people get upset when he didn't just take over. Even though he had an ok 8 and 6 people were blaming him for the loss to the Clippers and saying nothing and their forwards, Thornton and Randolph lighting us up.

Then when he has a good game,his minutes take an even bigger dip. He's the only player i've seen that can go from a great game to 3 minutes or a DNP the very next game.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Cwell

[hawkman]

yep Law was getting DNPs then when Bibby gets hurt out of nowhere Woody starts Acie (prolly so people could blame him if we lost,which we did)instead of Flip, then people get upset when he didn't just take over. Even though he had an ok 8 and 6 people were blaming him for the loss to the Clippers and saying nothing and their forwards, Thornton and Randolph lighting us up.

Then when he has a good game,his minutes take an even bigger dip. He's the only player i've seen that can go from a great game to 3 minutes or a DNP the very next game.

So I guess it's all a conspiracy to keep Law down?

[Cwell]

So I guess it's all a conspiracy to keep Law down?

it's funny that that's all u have to reply with. Because u know everything that's been said is true and it doesn't fit your woody-like views so you'd rather just reply with some one liner like that

Edited May 29, 2009 by Cwell

[hawkman]

it's funny that that's all u have to reply with. Because u know everything that's been said is true and it doesn't fit your woody-like views so you'd rather just reply with some one liner like that

Woody like views? Come on man, I want a new coach as much as the next Hawks fan. I responded the way I did because I truly believe that if Woody thought that Acie would help save his job or get him an extension, he'd be getting crazy playing time right now. Maybe Woody is wrong, but he's 2/3 so far looking at Diaw/Salim/Shelden. Heck, I thought Salim had serious game and could be a player in this league and thought he would "blow up" with San Antonio, but I was wrong. I still don't know what to make of Acie. He has the tools and "looks" the part but he has yet to really impress in the NBA. He was a GREAT player at Texas A&M but I haven't seen that same dude in a Hawks uniform yet. I don't hate the guy or anything, it's just that he never really does that much when he's on the court.

Edited May 29, 2009 by hawkman

[DJlaysitup]

I still don't know what to make of Acie. He has the tools and "looks" the part but he has yet to really impress in the NBA. He was a GREAT player at Texas A&M but I haven't seen that same dude in a Hawks uniform yet. I don't hate the guy or anything, it's just that he never really does that much when he's on the court.

I wonder if he really has the tools - agianst NBA guards. We had two 1st round picks and did well with the no-brainer (Al Horfrord)...then we picked the next best PG that everybody else said was a tweener PG/SG. They were right in this deal. Acie was (and is) a tweener. Problem is - he forgot how to shoot. So not only is he not a PG...he can't even fill the roll as a backup SG...so pitch him.....IMHO.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Before the season started last year, I tried to bread down the minutes of each player. I had Acie pretty much splitting time at the point with Bibby. I need to find that thread to know exactly what I put down, but I think it was something similar to this:

PG: Bibby ( 28 ) . . Acie ( 20 )

G: JJ ( 32 ) . . Flip ( 10 ) . . Evans ( 6 )

SF: Marvin ( 28 ) . . Evans ( 14 ) . . JJ ( 6 )

PF: Smth ( 36 ) . . Horford ( 8 ) . . Marvin ( 4 )

C: Horford ( 28 ) . . Zaza ( 20 )

Total minutes:

JJ ( 38 )

Horford ( 36 )

Smith ( 36 )

Marvin ( 32 )

Bibby ( 28 )

Zaza ( 20 )

Evans ( 20 )

Acie ( 20 )

Flip ( 10 )

Then the season started, and of course, because of the flagrant foul in Game 7, Marvin is out the lineup for a game. That forces Woody to adjust the lineup. Mo starts for Marvin.

Game 1 @ Orlando:

- Mo plays 42 minutes, because he was solid defensively, and got on the boards ( 8 rebounds )

- Acie plays 16 minutes, and has 4 points, 4 rebs, and 2 assists

- Flip plays 23 minutes, and scores 14 points.

The Hawks beat the Magic by 14 that night.

Game 2 vs Philly

- Acie plays 13 minutes . . . scores 2 points and has 1 assist

- Flip plays 19 minutes . . scores 4 points ( 2 - 8 FG )

- Marvin only played 20 minutes

Hawks win by 13, mainly because JJ dropped 35 on the Sixers

Game 3 @ New Orleans

- Acie plays 12 minutes . . scores 1 point and has 2 assists

- Flip plays 26 minutes . . scores 14 points, 3 assits, and 2 steals ( also 3 - 6 from 3-pt range )

Game 4 vs Toronto

- Acie plays 13 minutes . . scores 2 points and has 4 assists

- Flip plays 23 minutes . . scores 16 points ( another good night from three . . 3 - 4 )

- Bibby hit 5 threes this game

This is the game in which Smoove got hurt, so Woody plays the entire bench. Horford got in early foul trouble, so it forced his hand to play both Solo and even Randolph Morris. Both did their job.

I break the first 4 games down like this, because you are seeing a pattern.

- The first thing you see is that Flip is a BALLER. Right from the jump he establishes himself as the scorer the Hawks has desperately longed for off the bench. In those first 4 games, he goes 17 - 39 FG ( 44% ) and 6 - 14 3FG ( 43% ). There is no doubt that he'd immeadiately made the case for himself to garner more playing time.

- Contrast that to Acie, who in those first 4 games, really didn't do anything special at all. He had some flashes in the Toronto game, with a few good passes. But overall, he's doing NOTHING to stand out. In the first 4 games, he's 4 - 15 FG ( 27% ) and 0 - 7 3FG ( 0% obviously ). Assist wise, he has 9 total assists, along with 3 turnovers, which gives him a 3 to 1 assist/to ratio. That's decent. But he doesn't have a single steal in those four games.

So now, you have a situation in which Flip is making a huge case to be a mid-20s minute guy a night off the bench. Law, on the other hand, has virtually did nothing to make a case for him to see more minutes. In fact, you could say that his lack of him knocking down the 3-ball, makes the case for his minutes to be reduced.

Remember folks . . we're 4 - 0 at this point as well.

So now go to Game 5 @ Oklahoma City

- With no Smith in the lineup, you now see Solo getting a chance to get minutes. He plays 22 minutes, has 5 points, 10 rebounds, and 2 blocked shots.

- Flip plays 27 minutes, and scores 14 points ( he was 5 - 14 FG . . but it was Flip that saved us in the 4th quarter by scoring 8 straight points to tie the game, after we were down 7 )

- Acie played 6 minutes . . scored no points and had 1 assist. Once again, he didn't even have a steal. He played all of his 6 minutes in the first half, with Woody opting not to go to him in the 2nd half

Hawks win by 4 . . . and we're 5 - 0

Game 6 @ Chicago

- if anything, Solo should be mad, because he only played 6 minutes this game. So why did he only play 6 minutes, if he's supposed to be taking up some of the slack for Smoove being out the lineup? Because . .

- Horford goes off, and scores 27 points and pulls down 17 rebounds and has 6 blocks, in 41 minutes of play

- Zaza has a solid 26 minutes of time, scoring 12 points and pulling down 8 rebounds.

- Flip has an off game, scoring only 5 points ( 1 - 5 FG ) in 22 minutes of play.

- Acie plays 8 minutes, and has GOOSE EGGS ACROSS THE BOARD . . 0 - 1 FG . . no points, rebounds, assists, or steals . . NOTHING.

What sticks out most about this game, is the +/- ratio. Every Hawks starter had a positive +/- ratio, with Bibby having a +20 and JJ having a +14. But all of the bench players had a negative +/- ratio. And who was the worst?

ACIE . . wtih a -17.

He only plays 8 minutes, but has a -17? That's almost impossible. But he was supposed to be "running the 2nd unit", while JJ, Marvin, and Bibby were on the bench. Hawks couldn't hit anything, while the Bulls went on a 9 - 1 run, and immeadiately got back within 4. Acie didn't take one shot during that 3 minute run.

Thank God for Bibby that game, because he comes right in and knocks down 2 threes and the lead immeadiatley goes back up to 10. Hawks win by 5.

*************

This is why I defend Woody folks. This is why I KNOW that everything that goes wrong with this team, isn't his fault. I can actually see why he does things, without being emotionally attached to a player that I like.

I like Acie. I think he could be a good player. But how can you justify playing a guy, that has NO EFFECT ON A GAME WHATSOEVER? The beginning of the season was his time to solidify himself into the rotation, and he FLAT OUT BLEW IT.

Yet, people want to blame Woody for Acie's lack of development, or the offense, or whatever. I'm sorry. The blame goes DIRECTLY ON ACIE. It has to. The same that the blame had to go on Salim, for his lack of consistent production.

Like Hawkman points out, the guy has to produce SOMETHING on his time on the court. He has to give the coach a reason to give him more playing time. If you add the 2 missed FGs he had in the Thunder and Bulls game, Acie shot 4 - 17 FG ( 24% ) . . with no three pointers . . and no steals . . during that 6 - 0 start we had.

So what is Woody supposed to do? Continue to play Acie 12 - 18 minutes a game, to get him more experience, and take minutes away from Flip, who has quickly proven to be an asset to the team? Or take minutes away from Bibby, who in November shot a blistering 48% FG and 47% 3FG?

Like Salim, Acie seems to excel during "scrub time". That's not enough folks. He has to start doing it within the flow of a game . . when the game is still in the balance. Unfortunately for Acie, he's not in a situation in which he's the best option at PG, but just needs some work. There is no AJ and Lue in front of him anymore. He's going to actually have to beat out the 2 PGs in head of him, to prove he deserves more playing time.

If he doesn't, he's going to be buried on the bench FOREVER, and quickly find himself in the same position that a Marcus Williams ( of UCONN ) finds himself in. Remember him?

[hawkman]

Thankyou Northcyde. I don't know how many ways it could be said, but Acie just hasn't shown much when given the time. All I can go by is what I saw during the games. I was cheering him on after I read about how hard he worked during the offseason and he did next to nothing on the court. I still hope he can be the player I thought he could be on draft night, but I wouldn't bench a productive player/ trade a productive player/ let Bibby go just to hand him the team though. It just seems too risky at this point.

[AtLaS]

That is very good research northcyde, but playing a player for ~15 mpg for 4 games doesn't give them time to develop. Even at that point he was getting yanked at the first sign of a mistake, which makes players hesitant and takes them out of their game and, ultimately, kills confidence. It's pretty sad too after the promising preseason he had.

In order to develop a player, you need to consistently give them a chance to play through their mistakes. It takes a while. Acie showed more than a few signs of good play last season, and didn't get a chance this year. I find it hard to believe that he got worse.

Edited June 1, 2009 by AtLaS

[bumpyphish1]

So I guess it's all a conspiracy to keep Law down?

No, moron, but it is clear Woody developed a negative bias towards Acie early on and has not given him the time that is sufficient to develop a player in this league.

And, Northcyde, putting your eggs in the same basket as this CLOWN just further adds to my ever declining respect for your opinions. You made the valid point that Flip was able to assert himself early in the season when given nearly equal minutes as Acie. But you don't seem to take into consideration that Flip is an old man in this league, has played for coaches where he had a defined role, and therefore feels more comfortable "jumping into the fire" where all that has been said all along is that Acie needs to be given time so he can feel comfortable! Of course, you also neglect to mention statistics like turnovers and FG% that favor Acie.

Acie needs time and to be trusted to execute a role. Hasn't had that. He WILL improve and show why he was so highly thought of out of college if he leaves.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

That is very good research northcyde, but playing a player for ~15 mpg for 4 games doesn't give them time to develop. Even at that point he was getting yanked at the first sign of a mistake, which makes players hesitant and takes them out of their game and, ultimately, kills confidence. It's pretty sad too after the promising preseason he had.

In order to develop a player, you need to consistently give them a chance to play through their mistakes. It takes a while. Acie showed more than a few signs of good play last season, and didn't get a chance this year. I find it hard to believe that he got worse.

Atlas, Acie is in the same situation that Shelden was in. It got to a point with Shelden, that the team was better off opting to give Zaza more minutes, than Shelden, because Zaza could make things happen immeadiately with his energy. Shelden's lackluster play was part of the reason why Zaza was able to get out of Woody's "Doghouse".

Shelden played pretty good when he got the minutes. I think Diesel pointed out once that when Shelden played 30+ minutes, he averaged almost a double-double. But we can't bench Josh Smith, in order for Shelden to play. So Shelden had to impact a game whether he plays 8 minutes or 28 minutes. Once Horford got here, and immeadately produced like people thought Shelden should've, it was a wrap for him.

The same went for Salim. We didn't have time for Salim to go 0 - 4, before he "warmed up" and started to make shots. And it made no sense for Woody to opt to play Salim, when Lue could immeadiately come into a game and start making shots.

In those first few games in the beginning of this season, Woody was definitely making a commitment to play Acie at then end of the first/beginning of the 2nd quarters . . and at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th quarters. He was going to get 10 - 15 minutes a game easily. If he'd played well during those stretches, I doubt very seriously that Woody would've had a quick trigger and yanked him out of a game. But Acie made it easy on Woody.

Acie just has to take the playing time, and maximize it. Simple as that.

Edited June 1, 2009 by northcyde

[ATLBob]

Beautiful post.

In his short career Law's shooting has been atrocious at best & we all know that Woody's points have to be able to knock down shots when playing off the ball. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

The most disheartening thing wasn't that Law didn't score when he was on the court, though, but that he didn't do anything to impact the game. Where were the hustle plays?

Folks always like to cite his "dribble penetration," but penetration is worthless if it doesn't result in points, either by the player penetrating or via assist.

I'm not saying Law can't play, but he was given an opportunity to justify minutes and he got beaten out for them fair & square.

If he's such a talent, then why can't he earn minutes? Blaming Woody , who has shown plenty of willingness to play his best players regardless of age, entirely seems pretty fruitless.

Better to ask Acie to step up in practice and make Woody play him.

Edited June 2, 2009 by ATLBob

[AtLaS]

Atlas, Acie is in the same situation that Shelden was in. It got to a point with Shelden, that the team was better off opting to give Zaza more minutes, than Shelden, because Zaza could make things happen immeadiately with his energy. Shelden's lackluster play was part of the reason why Zaza was able to get out of Woody's "Doghouse".

Shelden played pretty good when he got the minutes. I think Diesel pointed out once that when Shelden played 30+ minutes, he averaged almost a double-double. But we can't bench Josh Smith, in order for Shelden to play. So Shelden had to impact a game whether he plays 8 minutes or 28 minutes. Once Horford got here, and immeadately produced like people thought Shelden should've, it was a wrap for him.

The same went for Salim. We didn't have time for Salim to go 0 - 4, before he "warmed up" and started to make shots. And it made no sense for Woody to opt to play Salim, when Lue could immeadiately come into a game and start making shots.

In those first few games in the beginning of this season, Woody was definitely making a commitment to play Acie at then end of the first/beginning of the 2nd quarters . . and at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th quarters. He was going to get 10 - 15 minutes a game easily. If he'd played well during those stretches, I doubt very seriously that Woody would've had a quick trigger and yanked him out of a game. But Acie made it easy on Woody.

Acie just has to take the playing time, and maximize it. Simple as that.

The PG position is a lot harder to learn than PF. I don't see Shelden as a good example because it was clear he was simply overmatched in terms of size and athletic ability, and lack of skills. That is not the case with Acie. When Acie plays 10 minutes one game, than 3 the next, then sits for 5 games, and gets yanked at the first sign of any mistake, he has no chance to develop or gain confidence.

I agree that Acie should play better in the limited amount of time he gets, but it's extremely hard to in that situation. Not to mention the offense that we run usually consists of giving it to the main guy (JJ) and just standing on the perimeter. The offense is really catered for a shoot first PG, even though it shouldn't be.

[Diesel]

Let me bottom line it for you all.

Woody is the problem.

Acie doesn't do what Woody wants him to do. Acie's problem is that he's not a three point shooting OG. He's a PG with the mentality to run an offense.

Well, Woody has no offense.

Woody would rather have an OG who would sit outside and shoot threes when Joe throws the ball to you. That's why Woody loves Bibby and Flip. Those guys are really OGs who shoot threes. That's why Acie never found his niche. Acie never shot well enough to be Woody's PG.

The problems for Acie has been... His injuries and his shooting. I know Wood has a track record of not having players leave our situation and blow up elsewhere... but the question is... Who were they? The only one that's comparable is Shelden Williams. AND he left here with his confidence out of sorts. IF Acie leaves here with his confidence (after 2 years of being demoralized).. then Acie will blow up somewhere else. All he needs is an offensive system and Playing time.

[Diesel]

The PG position is a lot harder to learn than PF. I don't see Shelden as a good example because it was clear he was simply overmatched in terms of size and athletic ability, and lack of skills. That is not the case with Acie. When Acie plays 10 minutes one game, than 3 the next, then sits for 5 games, and gets yanked at the first sign of any mistake, he has no chance to develop or gain confidence.

I agree that Acie should play better in the limited amount of time he gets, but it's extremely hard to in that situation. Not to mention the offense that we run usually consists of giving it to the main guy (JJ) and just standing on the perimeter. The offense is really catered for a shoot first PG, even though it shouldn't be.

Even in Shelden's case. The second half of his rookie season was not so bad. He was averaging around a double double. Then Woody put him into the doghouse to start his second year and thankfully, he was traded. He left with no confidence.

Acie has never left Woody's doghouse.

[Cwell]

Let me bottom line it for you all.

Woody is the problem.

Acie doesn't do what Woody wants him to do. Acie's problem is that he's not a three point shooting OG. He's a PG with the mentality to run an offense.

Well, Woody has no offense.

Woody would rather have an OG who would sit outside and shoot threes when Joe throws the ball to you. That's why Woody loves Bibby and Flip. Those guys are really OGs who shoot threes. That's why Acie never found his niche. Acie never shot well enough to be Woody's PG.

The problems for Acie has been... His injuries and his shooting. I know Wood has a track record of not having players leave our situation and blow up elsewhere... but the question is... Who were they? The only one that's comparable is Shelden Williams. AND he left here with his confidence out of sorts. IF Acie leaves here with his confidence (after 2 years of being demoralized).. then Acie will blow up somewhere else. All he needs is an offensive system and Playing time.

exactly. Tell me how a guy is supposed to score points without the ball in his hands. and how is he supposed to rack up assists when he passes it and somebody takes it and dribbles for 10 seconds before throwing up a jumper.Out of all the great PG's in this league y'all like to go gaga over,how many of them play off the ball as much as woody makes ours? Do u see Chris Paul, Deron Williams etc. making the first pass in the offense and then going to the corner for the rest of the possession. and people blame that on Acie? please, is by design if u notice, every possession he's in he brings it up (if Flip doesn't) the PF or SF comes to the top the the arc and takes the first pass,the only open spot is the corner so it's obvious that's where he's supposed to be and then he's done for the possession. He never gets the ball back,even if he migrates back to the top of the key,Flip usually is busy going 1 on 5 on taking 10 shots.

victim of woody's poor offense. If u notice when ever Acie gets an open 3 from the corner he's ALWAYS forced to camp out in he usually did knock down the shot this year

Edited June 2, 2009 by Cwell

[Cwell]

I wonder if he really has the tools - agianst NBA guards. We had two 1st round picks and did well with the no-brainer (Al Horfrord)...then we picked the next best PG that everybody else said was a tweener PG/SG. They were right in this deal. Acie was (and is) a tweener. Problem is - he forgot how to shoot. So not only is he not a PG...he can't even fill the roll as a backup SG...so pitch him.....IMHO.

seeing how he consistently blows by every guard he faces and also couses problems to those same guards on the other end I'd say he does have the tools against NBA guards. Do u know how stupid that sounds to say he "forgot how to shoot" lol. PLayers don't just forget how to shoot, and people don't just learn to shoot. It takes time and repitition,which he doesn't get in game situations. Practicing your jumper won't help when you're just gonna ride the bench during games. Acie had the ball in his hands during pre-season,which is why he was successful. I saw one designed play against Detroit where he brought the ball up,passed it to Horford I think,he raced down the lane and back outside and around Horford who hit him with the pass and he quickly pulled up and knocked down the mid range jumper. He doesn't get plays like that called for him when he's in. If I knew how to make gif's i'd make one of it because that game is still available to download somewhere I saw.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Cwell