June 1, 2009: Reasonable deadline for Woody's validation or termination?

[HAWKS1986]

If GM Sund keeps Woody, the Hawks may as well package ALL THE DRAFT PICKS and try to get an impact veteran to Woody's liking.

If GM Sund values the draft and the need to draft young players, HE SHOULD FIRE WOODY...

The NBA draft is more than a month away, and its time for validation or termination of Woody's coaching style.

The failure of Acie Law is all on Woody and should be the last straw.

Josh Smith is the best among former first round Top 10 picks that have developed. However, Josh Smith is not at an All-Star level and his maturity on the court has been called into question. Eventhough Boris Diaw wasn't with Woodson very long, its another example of another first round pick not being able to fit into Woody's system.

Josh Childress was a limited player that was projected as a Top 10 pick, but both parted ways last year. Shelden Williams, who was picked over Brandon Roy and the Hawks traded him away within two years.

Al Horford plays hard, but his game is very much under-developed or under-utilized. Marvin Williams is a classic underachiever who more satisfied with being a follower than a leader and it seems the organization is trying to find a way to unload him (about time).

And finally Acie Law, after watching guys like Rondo and Aaron Brooks being put into situations in which they are gaining valuable experience and growing at the same makes me think, why isn't Acie doing this?

Is it the coach or the players?

Joe Johnson was already a "ready-made" player and so was Mike Bibby, but Woodson has been the overseer of the young players and they haven't developed fully and there is question whether they ever will do so.

GM Sund should ask himself with the NBA draft coming...how I can trust Woody to develop these players (coming from the draft) and none of his former Top 10 picks have never made an All-Star game or playing at a consistently high level?

[coachx]

If GM Sund values the draft and the need to draft young players, HE SHOULD FIRE WOODY...

If the ASG allow him too. BK tried to fire Woody in the middle of the 07-08 season but the ASG would not allow it......at that point we were chasing the 8th seed and not yet in the playoffs. Plus, at that point in time, Woody was not even under contract for the next season like he is now.

[Swatguy]

If GM Sund keeps Woody, the Hawks may as well package ALL THE DRAFT PICKS and try to get an impact veteran to Woody's liking.

If GM Sund values the draft and the need to draft young players, HE SHOULD FIRE WOODY...

The NBA draft is more than a month away, and its time for validation or termination of Woody's coaching style.

The failure of Acie Law is all on Woody and should be the last straw.

Josh Smith is the best among former first round Top 10 picks that have developed. However, Josh Smith is not at an All-Star level and his maturity on the court has been called into question. Eventhough Boris Diaw wasn't with Woodson very long, its another example of another first round pick not being able to fit into Woody's system.

Josh Childress was a limited player that was projected as a Top 10 pick, but both parted ways last year. Shelden Williams, who was picked over Brandon Roy and the Hawks traded him away within two years.

Al Horford plays hard, but his game is very much under-developed or under-utilized. Marvin Williams is a classic underachiever who more satisfied with being a follower than a leader and it seems the organization is trying to find a way to unload him (about time).

And finally Acie Law, after watching guys like Rondo and Aaron Brooks being put into situations in which they are gaining valuable experience and growing at the same makes me think, why isn't Acie doing this?

Is it the coach or the players?

Joe Johnson was already a "ready-made" player and so was Mike Bibby, but Woodson has been the overseer of the young players and they haven't developed fully and there is question whether they ever will do so.

GM Sund should ask himself with the NBA draft coming...how I can trust Woody to develop these players (coming from the draft) and none of his former Top 10 picks have never made an All-Star game or playing at a consistently high level?

So you think Acie is comparable to Rondo and Aaron Brooks. Sad.

You blame Woody for drafting Shelden and JSmith's immaturity. incredible.

Boris is French and had emotional issues (kinda like PMS) and could not perform. Blame Woody.

You say Chillz is limited. Well he thrived so blame Woody on that.

Again, The talent is not what you think it is.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( sigh ))

Josh Smith is the best among former first round Top 10 picks that have developed. However, Josh Smith is not at an All-Star level and his maturity on the court has been called into question.

Josh Smith was a guy with very limited offensive skill when he came into the league. That's the reason why Jay Bilas basically said that he'd be a bust. Once Harrington was moved, Woody moved Josh to the 4, and encouraged him to use his athleticism and speed to take the bigger, slower 4's off the dribble. While he still jacks up a ton of bad outside shots, there is NO QUESTION that Smoove has progressed LIGHT YEARS ahead as a player. And while people will never give him credit, Woody deserves a lot of the credit for the development of Smith.

Even though Boris Diaw wasn't with Woodson very long, its another example of another first round pick not being able to fit into Woody's system.

To use Diaw the way Phoenix used him, meant that we'd have to play Diaw at the 4. And Diaw really didn't blossom in Phoenix, until he was forced to play some at the 5, something that no coach, other than maybe Don Nelson would've tried with Diaw. At that time when Diaw was here, we had Al Harrington playing the 4. Woody tried to utilize Diaw at the 1, 2, and the 3, and while an effective passer and decent defender, he was so timid offensively that his time on the court was basically a wash.

Josh Childress was a limited player that was projected as a Top 10 pick, but both parted ways last year.

Under Woody, Chill probably did as much as he could, considering that he couldn't shoot over people with a jumper. He was a Shawn Marion-lite type of player ( without the defense ), and Woody utilized him as such.

Shelden Williams, who was picked over Brandon Roy and the Hawks traded him away within two years.

Shelden was given a LOT of opportunity to succeed in ATL. He got a ton of playing time to see if he could be effective. He played well in spurts, but was inconsistent in his effectiveness on the court. As you can see with his stints in Sacramento and Minnesota, Shelden may simply not have what it takes to elevate his game anywhere near what he was in college. Need wise, the pick may have been right for the Hawks, because we desperately needed some frontcourt help. But it's obvious that Shelden just didn't have what it took physically and skill-wise, to be a consistently good NBA player. Maybe if he were on a horrible team where he could get a ton of PT, he may put up some decent numbers.

Al Horford plays hard, but his game is very much under-developed or under-utilized.

In college, Horford was a guy who could knock down the 10 - 15 face up jumper, and was somewhat effective with a hook shot. That hasn't changed much in the pros. Horford's main problem is that he has to go up against big centers. He's not going to be a big time scorer with JJ, Smoove, Bibby and Flip taking more shots. But when Smoove went down, and Horford was forced to play the 4 more, he put up MONSTER numbers. The Horford you saw during the playoffs, was a severly hobble Horford. It's pretty obvious that he wasn't right, after he twisted that ankle.

Marvin Williams is a classic underachiever who more satisfied with being a follower than a leader and it seems the organization is trying to find a way to unload him (about time).

And yet, Woody has seemed to encouraged Marvin to continue to expand his game. The fact that Woody told him to come back this year with a 3-pont shot, and Marvin did just that, proves that Woody had some hand in that kid's development. Marvin may never be a star, but it won't be because he didn't get the opportunity to show off his game under Woody. People criticized Woody for playing Marvin over Chill for years. He did it because Marvin was more versatile than Chill, and had more potential to develop more.

And finally Acie Law, after watching guys like Rondo and Aaron Brooks being put into situations in which they are gaining valuable experience and growing at the same makes me think, why isn't Acie doing this?

I still say that Woody was about to hand over the reigns to Acie during the 07 - 08 season. He was in the starting lineup after the 3rd game, partially because AJ went down. Even with AJ in, we had a 3-headed rotation at the point. The Charlotte game, in which Acie had 7 assists in the first half, was going to be his breakout game, from a playmaking standpoint. He was easily going to have 11 - 13 assists that game. But he got hurt.

From that moment on, Acie's life here has been star crossed. The Hawks started to take off, with AJ at the point, and Acie hurt. The good December that AJ had that year, not only solidified AJ as the starter, but buried Acie on the bench. If Woody wasn't fighting for his coaching life, he may have went back to Acie. But he didn't. Once we made the trade for Bibby, Acie had another shot for solid playing time . . but he got hurt again.

This year, Acie had a shot to crack the rotation, but Flip immeadiately showed that he could make more of an impact on a game, than Acie could. IMMEADIATELY. It would've made no sense to give significant PT to Acie to develop him, and reduce Flip's minutes. What Woody could've done, is reduced JJ's minutes at the 2, played Flip there, and get Acie a little time at the point when Bibby was out. You're still not talking significant minutes though.

When you mention guys like Rondo, Brooks, and even Conley, all of those guys were basically handed the PG job from Day 1. In the case of Brooks, he only saw significant minutes at the point AFTER Rafer Alston was traded. The same could be said of Conley, after they got rid of Lowry.

If the Hawks didn't re-sign Bibby, and only Flip was left to play the point, we then could see what Acie could do with significant PT.

**********

Having said all of that, the fact remains that this team underwent a 12 game improvement from last year . . and won their 1st round playoff series for the first time in 10 years. They also posted their first winning record for the first time in 10 years. Woody found ways to immeadiately integrate Flip and Mo into the Hawks system, to make this a good ball club.

To me, the only thing that matters as a Hawks fan, is that WE'RE WINNING. Fug how we do it, or how we look doing it. The fact that we're now relevent again in the NBA, is satisfying to me. Now, we just have to keep expounding on what we have going here.

No matter how much the fans despise Woody, he doesn't DESERVE to be fired.

[buckeye242424]

(( sigh ))

Josh Smith is the best among former first round Top 10 picks that have developed. However, Josh Smith is not at an All-Star level and his maturity on the court has been called into question.

Josh Smith was a guy with very limited offensive skill when he came into the league. That's the reason why Jay Bilas basically said that he'd be a bust. Once Harrington was moved, Woody moved Josh to the 4, and encouraged him to use his athleticism and speed to take the bigger, slower 4's off the dribble. While he still jacks up a ton of bad outside shots, there is NO QUESTION that Smoove has progressed LIGHT YEARS ahead as a player. And while people will never give him credit, Woody deserves a lot of the credit for the development of Smith.

Even though Boris Diaw wasn't with Woodson very long, its another example of another first round pick not being able to fit into Woody's system.

To use Diaw the way Phoenix used him, meant that we'd have to play Diaw at the 4. And Diaw really didn't blossom in Phoenix, until he was forced to play some at the 5, something that no coach, other than maybe Don Nelson would've tried with Diaw. At that time when Diaw was here, we had Al Harrington playing the 4. Woody tried to utilize Diaw at the 1, 2, and the 3, and while an effective passer and decent defender, he was so timid offensively that his time on the court was basically a wash.

Josh Childress was a limited player that was projected as a Top 10 pick, but both parted ways last year.

Under Woody, Chill probably did as much as he could, considering that he couldn't shoot over people with a jumper. He was a Shawn Marion-lite type of player ( without the defense ), and Woody utilized him as such.

Shelden Williams, who was picked over Brandon Roy and the Hawks traded him away within two years.

Shelden was given a LOT of opportunity to succeed in ATL. He got a ton of playing time to see if he could be effective. He played well in spurts, but was inconsistent in his effectiveness on the court. As you can see with his stints in Sacramento and Minnesota, Shelden may simply not have what it takes to elevate his game anywhere near what he was in college. Need wise, the pick may have been right for the Hawks, because we desperately needed some frontcourt help. But it's obvious that Shelden just didn't have what it took physically and skill-wise, to be a consistently good NBA player. Maybe if he were on a horrible team where he could get a ton of PT, he may put up some decent numbers.

Al Horford plays hard, but his game is very much under-developed or under-utilized.

In college, Horford was a guy who could knock down the 10 - 15 face up jumper, and was somewhat effective with a hook shot. That hasn't changed much in the pros. Horford's main problem is that he has to go up against big centers. He's not going to be a big time scorer with JJ, Smoove, Bibby and Flip taking more shots. But when Smoove went down, and Horford was forced to play the 4 more, he put up MONSTER numbers. The Horford you saw during the playoffs, was a severly hobble Horford. It's pretty obvious that he wasn't right, after he twisted that ankle.

Marvin Williams is a classic underachiever who more satisfied with being a follower than a leader and it seems the organization is trying to find a way to unload him (about time).

And yet, Woody has seemed to encouraged Marvin to continue to expand his game. The fact that Woody told him to come back this year with a 3-pont shot, and Marvin did just that, proves that Woody had some hand in that kid's development. Marvin may never be a star, but it won't be because he didn't get the opportunity to show off his game under Woody. People criticized Woody for playing Marvin over Chill for years. He did it because Marvin was more versatile than Chill, and had more potential to develop more.

And finally Acie Law, after watching guys like Rondo and Aaron Brooks being put into situations in which they are gaining valuable experience and growing at the same makes me think, why isn't Acie doing this?

I still say that Woody was about to hand over the reigns to Acie during the 07 - 08 season. He was in the starting lineup after the 3rd game, partially because AJ went down. Even with AJ in, we had a 3-headed rotation at the point. The Charlotte game, in which Acie had 7 assists in the first half, was going to be his breakout game, from a playmaking standpoint. He was easily going to have 11 - 13 assists that game. But he got hurt.

From that moment on, Acie's life here has been star crossed. The Hawks started to take off, with AJ at the point, and Acie hurt. The good December that AJ had that year, not only solidified AJ as the starter, but buried Acie on the bench. If Woody wasn't fighting for his coaching life, he may have went back to Acie. But he didn't. Once we made the trade for Bibby, Acie had another shot for solid playing time . . but he got hurt again.

This year, Acie had a shot to crack the rotation, but Flip immeadiately showed that he could make more of an impact on a game, than Acie could. IMMEADIATELY. It would've made no sense to give significant PT to Acie to develop him, and reduce Flip's minutes. What Woody could've done, is reduced JJ's minutes at the 2, played Flip there, and get Acie a little time at the point when Bibby was out. You're still not talking significant minutes though.

When you mention guys like Rondo, Brooks, and even Conley, all of those guys were basically handed the PG job from Day 1. In the case of Brooks, he only saw significant minutes at the point AFTER Rafer Alston was traded. The same could be said of Conley, after they got rid of Lowry.

If the Hawks didn't re-sign Bibby, and only Flip was left to play the point, we then could see what Acie could do with significant PT.

**********

Having said all of that, the fact remains that this team underwent a 12 game improvement from last year . . and won their 1st round playoff series for the first time in 10 years. They also posted their first winning record for the first time in 10 years. Woody found ways to immeadiately integrate Flip and Mo into the Hawks system, to make this a good ball club.

To me, the only thing that matters as a Hawks fan, is that WE'RE WINNING. Fug how we do it, or how we look doing it. The fact that we're now relevent again in the NBA, is satisfying to me. Now, we just have to keep expounding on what we have going here.

No matter how much the fans despise Woody, he doesn't DESERVE to be fired.

Of course he doesn't deserve it. I agree. Hell, on paper, if you were an outsider looking what he has done with this francise, he probably DESERVES an extension.

But man, it's painfully obvious we need help coaching this team with offense. I'm perfectly fine with keeping Woody, but we can't go another year without some flexibility scoring the ball. Assistant coaching changes, offensive coordinator, whatever has been debated about here, something. Otherwise, we'll continue to win 45 games with this group. That's not all bad, but the potential to do more is there.

[Diesel]

Shelden Williams, who was picked over Brandon Roy and the Hawks traded him away within two years.

Shelden was given a LOT of opportunity to succeed in ATL. He got a ton of playing time to see if he could be effective. He played well in spurts, but was inconsistent in his effectiveness on the court. As you can see with his stints in Sacramento and Minnesota, Shelden may simply not have what it takes to elevate his game anywhere near what he was in college. Need wise, the pick may have been right for the Hawks, because we desperately needed some frontcourt help. But it's obvious that Shelden just didn't have what it took physically and skill-wise, to be a consistently good NBA player. Maybe if he were on a horrible team where he could get a ton of PT, he may put up some decent numbers.

Al Horford plays hard, but his game is very much under-developed or under-utilized.

In college, Horford was a guy who could knock down the 10 - 15 face up jumper, and was somewhat effective with a hook shot. That hasn't changed much in the pros. Horford's main problem is that he has to go up against big centers. He's not going to be a big time scorer with JJ, Smoove, Bibby and Flip taking more shots. But when Smoove went down, and Horford was forced to play the 4 more, he put up MONSTER numbers. The Horford you saw during the playoffs, was a severly hobble Horford. It's pretty obvious that he wasn't right, after he twisted that ankle.

I'm not going to talk about the whole post, I just want to make some clarification on Shelden and Horf. Woody basically wanted Shelden and Horf to be Garbage players. He came out and said this specifically about Shelden. He said that Shelden has to get in there and do the dirty work. Shelden has a lot of shortcomings but they are amplified when you put him in a offense with no scheme. I think Woody really broke Shelden and is on the way to breaking Horf. Both of these guys would thrive in a pick and roll offense. Yet, Woody is content having them stand in the high post like their name was OKUR and wait on a high post shot while JJ plays Playground iso basketball

[DrReality]

Woody ain't going nowhere.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm not going to talk about the whole post, I just want to make some clarification on Shelden and Horf. Woody basically wanted Shelden and Horf to be Garbage players. He came out and said this specifically about Shelden. He said that Shelden has to get in there and do the dirty work. Shelden has a lot of shortcomings but they are amplified when you put him in a offense with no scheme. I think Woody really broke Shelden and is on the way to breaking Horf. Both of these guys would thrive in a pick and roll offense. Yet, Woody is content having them stand in the high post like their name was OKUR and wait on a high post shot while JJ plays Playground iso basketball

Diesel, I thought that's EXACTLY what Shelden would bring to this team though. If you talk to Duke fans, or fans of the ACC, they'd tell you that Shelden got a lot of his points off of offensive put-backs or easy lay-ups. At 6-8, and playing center, that's exactly what he needed to do . . be a garbage man that scrapped and hustled to get his points and rebounds.

But like with Acie, it seems as if Shelden needed to be a starter, in order to make an impact on a game. When Shell came off the bench, he seemed to not make an impact at all. To me, he should at least be doing what Milsap in Utah, or Maxiell in Detroit is doing. But he can't even do that. Most disappointing about Shelden though, was his defense on the NBA level. I thought he'd be a much better defensive player.

Horford, on the other hand, isn't even comparable to Shelden. He does exactly what I thought Shelden would do . . and more. What Horford needs to do, is either become Kurt Thomas-like with the 15 foot jumper, or do like Exodus has been saying for 2 years . . and start taking those centers off the dribble, like Smoove does with the PFs. When he starts doing that, he'll be a more efficient offensive player. His post game is weak at best right now. He'll have to work on that during the summer.

From a jumpshooting standpoint, Horford is better than both Milsap and Maxiell already. Horford, if he starts taking people off the dribble, or develops a go-to post move, is going to be a highly efficient offensive player in the years to come.

( edit ) - Ish . . from a jumpshooting standpoint, he was better than Boozer this year.

Edited May 18, 2009 by northcyde

[HAWKS1986]

Of course he doesn't deserve it. I agree. Hell, on paper, if you were an outsider looking what he has done with this francise, he probably DESERVES an extension.

But man, it's painfully obvious we need help coaching this team with offense. I'm perfectly fine with keeping Woody, but we can't go another year without some flexibility scoring the ball. Assistant coaching changes, offensive coordinator, whatever has been debated about here, something. Otherwise, we'll continue to win 45 games with this group. That's not all bad, but the potential to do more is there.

This team the way it currently constructed has a difficult time matching up with Cleveland, Boston (with or without Garnett) and even an athletic team like Philly...even when we are healthy!

The Hawks are not very athletic in the backcourt and undersized and offensively challenged in their frontcourt. The bench is very young, thin and often ignored.

We assume we win 45 games next year, but other young teams are getting better... what about Charlotte (they were knocking on the door of the playoffs), Chicago will continue to grow with Derrick Rose, Miami will find a veteran, but Chalmers and Beasley will be better next season or what about Washington who will have Gilbert Arenas at full strength and may get lucky and acquire a high impact draft pick along with Jamison and Butler.

The Hawks can't afford to stand pat and live on the glory of a 37-win season in 2007 and 47 win season in 2008.

Our team hasn't developed a young, impact lead guard in YEARS! Our team hasn't had a consistent big man since Dikembe left...

Woody has success, but if the organization is going to keep him, let's use our draft picks and mix in maybe Acie or Marvin, and try to get some younger, impact veterans that can fit into Woody's style...

Under Woody's system, rookies starve and lose confidence before their highest potential is revealed.

Some laughed at my suggestion to go after veterans such as Carlos Boozer, Ben Gordon or even the multi-talented, versatile Tracy McGrady. but these are the type of impact veterans needed that would work the best under Woody...

[HAWKS1986]

Woody ain't going nowhere.

Then we need to package our draft picks including Marvin, Acie and try to bring some impact veterans to the Hawks to help Joe Johnson...