What's with all the trade Smoove discussions

[Diesel]

I have a question or better yet questions for you, I'm detecting personal bias here because you seem to be stating that you know the mental make up of a player as though it's a fact. I can read a fluff piece on practically every player in the league, they are all extraordinary people that come from extraordinary circumstances. What I want to know is how you can say Marvin is spoiled, has he ever at anytime in his career been given the ball and told you're the man go play and we'll sink or swim with you? How does a guy who's practically been designated as the 4th option on his team considered spoiled? Was Caron Butler spoiled when he started almost EVERY game of his rookie season? Did the Hawks add Dwayne Wade, Lamar Odom and had Eddie Jones in his psuedo prime and say to Marvin you're going to start ahead of these guys? Has Marvin not been amongst the top five best players on the Hawks since he's been here? So why not start him? You drafted him to help, how does he help you on the bench? Has he not thrived in his designated role as an efficient 4th option and exploded in production whenever options 1-3 have gone down? These are all question I have to ask you because unless you are Marvin's room mate or personal therapist I don't see how you can give such "accurate" measure of the man's character.

Let me bottom line it for you...

When you think back over the past 4 years... Do you think that Marvin was the best player playing his position (worthy of being the starter)?

i.e.

DId he deserve playing time over Smoove or AL Harrington in his first year?

Did he deserve to be a starter over Chillz for his second and third year?

As a rookie, did he earn his 24+ minutes on the court ?

BTW, you do know that Caron Butler was in the running for ROY?

[Diesel]

Marvin Williams is not "what he is" for the rest of his career at age 22. Josh Smith is not simply "what he is" for the remainder of his career. Both of these guys have room to grow.

Hell, Joe Johnson has room to grow? Joe Smith has Room to grow? Even Dikembe has room to grow? Anybody with a uniform has room to grow or the potential to be a better player. That's so cliche'. However, Marvin being 22 is irrelevant to this conversation. Marvin is a 4th year player about to be a 5th year player. The "room to grow" conversation should not enter into the re-signing conversation. Would you look at Brevin Knight and say... Wow, that Brevin Knight is a good PG, he has room to go, we ought to offer him a big contract?

OF course not. You know that after so many years, Brevin is not going to grow so much. By that same token, Marvin being a 4th year starter has had ample time to grow as a player. At the Sf position, there's not much more growing that is necessary. It's the easiest position on the floor. 4years logging about 32 minutes per game... We've only seen small growth in Marvin. Working with Price as a shooting coach has improved his three point shot from pitiful to below average. However, he could always shoot. He still defers. He still lacks aggression. These are things that are less likely to change because it's a part of who he is. When you read those "fluff" pieces as someone called them, the one thing that they had in common was that both players play the game as if they have something to prove. When you watch Smoove, he plays the game with a chip on his shoulder because he has something to prove. When you watch Marvin, he's just clocking in another day at work. There's nothing to prove. There's no urgency. He's just out there. IF he gets his shot, he'll take it. IF not.. that's Ok too. I don't think Marvin takes the losses personally. I've seen him on the sideline joking when we're losing in the playoffs. What's that about? There's no fire... so the liklihood of him doing what Butler and Lewis did are very slim.

[MaceCase]

Yup, I think I got you pegged. You seem to have a personal vendetta against Marvin because it got your favorite players shipped off outta town. By the way how's Al doing these days? Still jacking up shots as if the ball is on fire? Oh and Josh, hows he doing...out of the NBA you say? My my my and it's all lil ole Marvin's fault aint it. Apparently it angered you watching Marvin crack a smile on the sidelines while the old favorites are out playing in oblivion. I mean seriously dude wow! Alright let me actually address all your points.

Has Marvin been the best player at his position on our team? That answer is a resounding yes. Throw out having Smoove play the 3 on the board see what kind of reactions you get in return. As for Al, he may be good scorer but that's it. You would say that he has tunnel vision for scoring. The guy can't be all that valuable when he's bounced through 4 teams in like 5 seasons. He's sitting right now on my hometown's team as nothing more than an expiring contract. Then theres Chill, the darker skinned version of "Mad Dog" Madsen who's not even in the league by the way. Oh he went over to Europe for the money you say? Yea from fan forums and articles I've read he hasn't really been living up to that contract he signed to the point I'm 25% positive that those riots were started to get him out of there.

Now next, you make the argument that age and experience have nothing to do with a players development.......really so you are just going to go ahead and claim that guys like Joe Smith and Brevin Knight are just going to add 4 inches to their vertical and 3 point shooting to their repetoire? You really are going to spit in the face of conventional basketball wisdom that a player hits his physical and developmental prime between the ages of 27-31 or so? That every player comes into the league with tools but they won't refine those phsyical and mental tools to their peak until they are in their late 20s? BY your logic you're saying that every All Star, HOFer all reached their statistical peak in their early 20s and just did more of the same for the next 10 seasons of their career never increasing production? You sir are....no nevermind let's not devolve into that, I'm just going to sit here in my jammies watching the Cavs-Magic replay and listen to all the commentators talk about how scary Lebron is because he's this good at only 24 and how they don't know how great he's going to be. I'll send them all a memo that what they see is what they get.

[Duff_Man]

Josh Smith: Fan's wet dream, coach's nightmare.

The fact of the matter is that while Josh has had some great games for the Hawks, it is pretty apparent that mentally, he may just never truly "get it" and learn what it is like to be a great player and teammate. There are times when he looks like he might turn a corner, and then Mr Hyde comes back out. His body language changes, he lags back, argues every call, scowls at the coach and stops hustling. It's almost like having the world's most talented 5 year-old. Once things begin to not go his way, the lights in his head go out. It's frustrating.

His numbers have been good, but there's more to pro sports than raw numbers. If he could get his head on straight, he'd be unstoppable. Until then, he's "what could be."

So I guess my stance is: Don't trade him to trade him, but if a great value comes along, pull the trigger. At this point, I say nobody on the Hawks is untouchable. Even JJ slipped out of "untouchable" status this year.

[Joker]

Diesel, I bet you couldn't go two weeks without bashing Marvin?

[Diesel]

Yup, I think I got you pegged. You seem to have a personal vendetta against Marvin because it got your favorite players shipped off outta town. By the way how's Al doing these days?

Dr. Phil, before you come on here all late trying to use pop psychology on why I think that we don't need to spend 8+ Million to keep Marvin, you need to first recognize the real history. When we had 5 Sfs on the roster, I was the lone voice (maybe not the lone voice but in the 0.5% of this board and other boards) who said that we shouldn't get Marvin. Why? Because our biggest needs were PG and C. Here we are 4 years later.... CP3 is a superstar in the league. Deron Williams is a multiple time allstar. We've moved out player after Player.... to give Marvin... "room to grow"... and guess what, he's still mediocre. And we still need a PG and a C.

So let's entertain your personal vendetta.

why do you want to keep Marvin at 8+ Million?

Do you think he's doing something that nobody else could do?

Do you think he's worth the money?

Are you still holding out hope that he will develop into the easiest position on the floor?

Do you think he may one day be a Superstar?

Here's the truth and you can deny it if you please.

IF Marvin were just a UFA coming from the Houston Rockets team... I am willing to bet that not more than 5% of the squawkers here would be willing to pay him 8+ Million.

The only reason that Marvin has so many defenders on this board is because we drafted him.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Diesel

[Diesel]

Diesel, I bet you couldn't go two weeks without bashing Marvin?

You are right. Not during this contract period... because I feel so strongly that we should not waste 8+ Million per resigning a guy who has no aggressiveness nor is a unique player. We can find a cheaper Marvin. Hell Mo Evans proved that Marvin's contribution to the team is negligible.

Now, during the year, you can go through and find many weeks in a row that I didn't "bash" Marvin. In some of those weeks, I even applauded him for working on his three point shot. But right now superstar... It's not a time to be quiet and watch my favorite team f--- up again.

I care more about the well being of this team than I do any player. Can you say the same? Or are you still a Sac Kings fan first? R U just here watching Bibby?

[AHF]

Hell, Joe Johnson has room to grow? Joe Smith has Room to grow? Even Dikembe has room to grow? Anybody with a uniform has room to grow or the potential to be a better player. That's so cliche'. However, Marvin being 22 is irrelevant to this conversation. Marvin is a 4th year player about to be a 5th year player. The "room to grow" conversation should not enter into the re-signing conversation. Would you look at Brevin Knight and say... Wow, that Brevin Knight is a good PG, he has room to go, we ought to offer him a big contract?

This post is exactly as moronic as you intend it to be. All those guys are too old to have major growth ahead of them. Every GM in the league considers age to be key with players. I don't know why you would expect Atlanta fans to ignore what is an obvious and very real factor in a player's development. Dikembe Mutombo = so old that he can only go down from here. Brevin Knight = so old that there is no room for any significant development. Jerry West = too old to play anymore. Marvin Williams = room to grow and a pattern of improvement. Josh Smith = room to grow and a pattern of improvement. Pretending like age is irrelevant is just hard for me to accept from a guy who is obviously bright but seems to want to ignore an obvious truth so that Marvin fans can't use it as a crutch.

After Joe Johnson's first 4 years in the NBA he had started 253 games and had NEVER put up as high a PER as Marvin did last year. Nevertheless, he did have room to grow and we saw it happen here in Atlanta. Marvin has started 219 games in his career and is younger than JJ. He has room to grow, just like JJ did.

[Eddielives]

Look, Diesel is right on this one. Is this team EVER going to get beyond this just give him a little more time, he's gonna blow up to be an all-star label that has been assigned to so many of our draft picks? I for one am sick of holding on to hope for tomorrow that these guys are going to just sprout better basketball skills because of a few more birthdays. Marvin lacks grace and passion. Smoove lacks discipline and a jumpshot. Chillz couldn't create his own jumpshot. Most of our draft picks have not panned out to be worthy of where they were taken, except for maybe Smoove because he was a later pick, but he still hasn't harnessed that "raw" potential after all this time. I want to see a more polished team with players who want to play team basketball and win a championship, not a bunch of hyped up lottery picks that are probably never going to take us there.

[Diesel]

Pretending like age is irrelevant is just hard for me to accept from a guy who is obviously bright but seems to want to ignore an obvious truth so that Marvin fans can't use it as a crutch.

After Joe Johnson's first 4 years in the NBA he had started 253 games and had NEVER put up as high a PER as Marvin did last year. Nevertheless, he did have room to grow and we saw it happen here in Atlanta. Marvin has started 219 games in his career and is younger than JJ. He has room to grow, just like JJ did.

What I am saying is that any player can grow at any stage of his career... I watched MJ go from a dunker (early on)... to a dangerous Post up SG (mid career).. to a guy who was dangerous in the midcourt (later in his career).

The problem that you have with understanding what I am saying is that it comes back to the desire of the player and their work ethic. You can't point at the career of Caron Butler and say.. You know Marvin can do just like Butler did. NO... Marvin would have to have the same drive and Motivation that Butler had. From My perspective, I don't think Marvin has it. He has started for the last 3 years. He hasn't really shown much improvement. He's definitely not where many people thought he would be after 4 years. He's just a little better than average. It's even more proposterous that you try to hide Marvin behind his age. Right now Kevin Durant is ONLY 20 and he's much better than Marvin. How much does age matter again? Age doesn't matter more than NBA experience does. Ask the GMs and their scouts. Do you think that they are saying that we need to get the oldest guy coming out of college? He's going to be more mature? If you haven't noticed, age in the draft is a curse... Because teams realize that they can take a young guy, give him NBA experience and it would be 10 times better than him staying in college and coming out older. NBA experience trumps age.

[exodus]

From My perspective, I don't think Marvin has it. He has started for the last 3 years. He hasn't really shown much improvement.

Last season Marvin was 1-10 from 3. This year he was 55-155 from 3. That sure looks like improvement to me.

Two years ago Marvin shot 51% on his shots inside.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06ATL12A.HTM

This year he shot 61% on his shots inside.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

That is a 10% improvement in two years. Again it sure looks like substantial improvement to me. However given your inability to understand math i can certainly see why you wouldn't think he has improved.

[Diesel]

Last season Marvin was 1-10 from 3. This year he was 55-155 from 3. That sure looks like improvement to me.

Two years ago Marvin shot 51% on his shots inside.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06ATL12A.HTM

This year he shot 61% on his shots inside.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

That is a 10% improvement in two years. Again it sure looks like substantial improvement to me. However given your inability to understand math i can certainly see why you wouldn't think he has improved.

Like I said before, we got MarK Price working with him and he went from pitiful to below average on his three point shooting... That's not great improvement. Marvin has always had good mechanics and form. However, the area where Marvin should have improved was not on how well he can shoot the ball when he's WIDE OPEN, but his aggressiveness. Do you think Marvin was More aggressive or less aggressive??

Let's see... Marvin's FTA per game have went down from 5.1 to 4.5 That's about a 12% drop in FT's. That means that he's being less aggressive than he was last year. For a guy who is in a contract year... who's weakness has been categorized as lack of aggressiveness for the last 4 years... Don't you think it's strange that he would become less aggressive. What's wrong ex. Can't fight the numbers... YES, Marvin is less aggressive than he has been. IN other words, he's going backwards.

[exodus]

Like I said before, we got MarK Price working with him and he went from pitiful to below average on his three point shooting... That's not great improvement.

first you said he hasn't shown much improvement, now you say he hasn't shown great improvement. So which is it?

Let's see... Marvin's FTA per game have went down from 5.1 to 4.5 That's about a 12% drop in FT's. That means that he's being less aggressive than he was last year.

Like i said you should avoid posting anything math related. If you understood math you would understand that the decrease in his free throws was a direct result of a decrease in touches. He took fewer shots this year than last year because Bibby and Flip took a lot of shots.

Smith had a similar decrease in shot attempts and free throws.

[Diesel]

first you said he hasn't shown much improvement, now you say he hasn't shown great improvement. So which is it?

Like i said you should avoid posting anything math related. If you understood math you would understand that the decrease in his free throws was a direct result of a decrease in touches. He took fewer shots this year than last year because Bibby and Flip took a lot of shots.

Smith had a similar decrease in shot attempts and free throws.

First of all, I don't consider it great or much improved. It was slightly improved and by the middle of the year, it couldn't be counted on.

Second... his drop in FT wasn't a result of touches. How wrong you are:

last year Marvin shot 11.6 shot attempts per game. This year he had 12.7 shot attempts per game. BTW Shot attempts considers FGA + 3PA. So he took more shots but less free throws. He's outside jacking up long range shots that he can't hit with consistency and he's abandoned the drive. He was less aggressive. You can keep trying to spin it, but people who watch know that he settled for the jumper. He is less aggressive and every stat bears that out.

So on with the personal attack. I look forward to some pictures.. Because once again, you're riding on the Titanic of arguments.

:brick wall:

[exodus]

First of all, I don't consider it great or much improved. It was slightly improved and by the middle of the year, it couldn't be counted on.

Second... his drop in FT wasn't a result of touches. How wrong you are:

last year Marvin shot 11.6 shot attempts per game. This year he had 12.7 shot attempts per game. BTW Shot attempts considers FGA + 3PA. So he took more shots but less free throws. He's outside jacking up long range shots that he can't hit with consistency and he's abandoned the drive. He was less aggressive. You can keep trying to spin it, but people who watch know that he settled for the jumper. He is less aggressive and every stat bears that out.

So on with the personal attack. I look forward to some pictures.. Because once again, you're riding on the Titanic of arguments.

:brick wall:

My God, here comes a Diesel Math thread. FG attempts includes all attempts including three pointers. They have been that way in every box score and all cumulative statistics since the three pointer came into existence.

Do you really think Bibby averaged 14.9 ppg on 18.1 shot attempts?

:laughing5:

Edited May 24, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

My God, here comes a Diesel Math thread. FG attempts includes all attempts including three pointers. They have been that way in every box score and all cumulative statistics since the three pointer came into existence.

Do you really think Bibby averaged 14.9 ppg on 18.1 shot attempts?

I guess, we know Ex's M.O.: Evade, evade, evade... insult, insult, put up a picture. Put up a picture... change the subject...

[exodus]

I guess, we know Ex's M.O.: Evade, evade, evade... insult, insult, put up a picture. Put up a picture... change the subject...

You are the one avoiding the subject. Your stance that three point attempts are separate from fg attempts is just nuts.

Bibby took 12.7 shot attempts per game. He took 5.4 threes per game so according to Diesel Math that means he took 18.1 shots per game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=61

Bibby scored 1.7 on foul shots so that really means that those 18.1 attempts would only lead to 13.2 ppg from the field. Do you realize how bad he would have to shoot for that to be true?

13.2/2 = 6.6 made field goals per game out of 18.1 attempts. That would mean his EFG% on all 18.1 field goal attempts would be 36.4%. That is what Diesel math says.

I always knew you were clueless about math but you are really taking it to a new level now. FG attempts have ALWAYS included three pointers. That is a fact. It isn't even debatable.

It just amazes me the lengths you will go to discredit Marvin.

Edited May 25, 2009 by exodus

[AHF]

I always knew you were clueless about math but you are really taking it to a new level now. FG attempts have ALWAYS included three pointers. That is a fact. It isn't even debatable.

exodus is 100% right here.

Marvin's ratio of FTA to FGA was essentially the same the last two seasons. It was a .44 ratio of FTA to FGA the last two seasons.

By contrast, here are the other guys on our team:

JJ: .25 ratio

Bibby: .17 ratio

Josh Smith: .42 ratio

Flip: .29 ratio

Horford: .35 ratio

Mo Evans: .15 ratio

In other words, Marvin remained the most aggressive guy on our team in getting to the line based on the ratio of FTs to FGAs and got to the line roughly 3x as often as his replacement, Mo Evans, who somehow got to the line even less than non-penetrator Mike Bibby.

Note how Marvin compares in this to some of the league's best:

Dwayne Wade: .44 ratio

Kobe Bryant: .33 ratio

Lebron James: .47 ratio